Sacrifice for the good of the group

[BH]

I have a question. Why should I feel morally obligated to sacrifice myself for the good of the group or others?

I'm not talking about situations where you have no power and the group forces you to do so, either by legal coercion or brute force , basically because the danger of the act of sacrifice rationally speaking has a better chance of survival than refusing the coercion into it.

 

[bilby]

I don't know if 'should' even applies, but there are a few good reasons why we might.

Self-sacrifice for the good of others is uncommon, but very highly celebrated. People like to be the big hero that everyone is lauding, and they like it so much that they'll do it even in the certain knowledge that they won't be around to see it.

Chicks love heroes. Even (perhaps particularly) dead heroes.

Humans love stories. There's the story of the glorious sacrifice made by the hero that leads to his eternal remembrance - which, given that everyone dies, is the only plausible kind of immortality available to us.

There's the story of the guy who survived apparently certain death, to become a total chick-magnet and be showered with wealth and praise by a grateful populace.

There's even the story of the guys who got a special place, with better stuff and more chicks, in the afterlife, because they died heroically.

Humans act out the stories they imagine, and they try to cast themselves in the role of hero (even if nobody else agrees with that assessment of their role). All the world's a stage, as Shakespeare pointed out.

 

[steve_bank]

I'd say it depemds on the connection and empathy you have with those around you.

You can consider enlightened self interest. I'll give somebody a break hoping if I need it somebody will give me a break.

Karma is human causality, what goe around comes around. Treat peole as yiu wnat to be tretd.

The extreme alternative is Trump, a Machiavellian.

It comes down to te kind of word yiu want to live in.

Libertarians see themselves as independent of anyone else, they owe nothing to others. The reality is we are all interconnecd and interdependent.

 

[rousseau]

It depends on your definition of 'group'. If the group is our species as a whole, I'm not sure what you could do to actually serve that goal. If the group is the company you work for, or your extended family, then it's a lot more reasonable.

Given that, sacrifice doesn't need to mean you lose an arm, you can just go out of your way to make other people's lives better, or improve the functioning of the whole. You'd do this because you care about the experience of your friends and family.

 

[lostone]

The hope that if we do good things for others, they might do good things for us. That if we create a more liveable environment for everyone, then we, too might also benefit from it.

 

[TomC]

I have a question. Why should I feel morally obligated to sacrifice myself for the good of the group or others?

I'm not talking about situations where you have no power and the group forces you to do so, either by legal coercion or brute force , basically because the danger of the act of sacrifice rationally speaking has a better chance of survival than refusing the coercion into it.

This post is confusing.

On the one hand, sacrificing your personal, immediate, interests for the common good is rational.

We'd all have better lives if we recognised that our short term preferences often interfere with our long term interests.

Sacrificing our lives is different. "Better chance of survival" is quite different from "having a better life". Your OP wasn't clear.

I don't know anyone who expects you to sacrifice your existence. I suppose it happens, but I've never known anyone who expects it.
Tom

 

[BH]

Fair enough, Tom. I could have been more clear

 

[steve_bank]

You can turn it around and say

'Is anyone obligated to sacrfice for me?'

 

[BH]

true.

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't think anyone is obligated to sacrifice themselves for the good of the group, but sometimes people feel the need to do that. I'm thinking of the brave young man who risked his life to fight off the gunman during the horrible mass shooting that happened in or near LA this past weekend. Of course, his life was already in danger, but what he did was very courageous imo. His family owned the facility where the shooting took place for decades, so that might be what made him feel he had to do what he did. In any event, it's good that he survived and he probably saved countless lives by doing what he did. I don't think people do these things so they can become heroes. I think that there are times, when a person, suddenly sees others in danger and they immediately respond because they feel it's the right thing to do.

And, then there was the teacher who was shot by a 6 year old recently. She spent time making sure the other students were safe, despite having been wounded herself. I see her as a hero as well. At the time, she must have felt she had a moral obligation to protect her students from the messed up 6 year old with a gun. I think it takes a lot of courage to act like she did.

Of course, if the US didn't have such a gun fetish, there would be far fewer incidents where someone might feel the need to save others by putting their own life in danger in order to save others. But, that's a different topic. There are plenty of times when the sacrifice involves a fire or flood etc. For example, when Cory Booker was mayor of Newark, NJ, he ran into a building that was on fire to save someone or some people. I don't remember the details, but again, that took courage. Booker has always come across as a very compassionate person. It takes courage and compassion to do what he did. Not everyone has that type of courage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think anyone is obligated to sacrifice themselves for the good of the group, but sometimes people feel the need to do that. I'm thinking of the brave young man who risked his life to fight off the gunman during the horrible mass shooting that happened in or near LA this past weekend. Of course, his life was already in danger, but what he did was very courageous imo.

I'm not at all sure things like this should be considered courage--if you're in a position like that jumping the gunman is likely your best course of action. To me heroism etc involves incurring risk to help others. If you are the primary beneficiary of your actions I have a hard time with words like heroism.

 

[TomC]

I don't think anyone is obligated to sacrifice themselves for the good of the group, but sometimes people feel the need to do that. I'm thinking of the brave young man who risked his life to fight off the gunman during the horrible mass shooting that happened in or near LA this past weekend. Of course, his life was already in danger, but what he did was very courageous imo.

I'm not at all sure things like this should be considered courage--if you're in a position like that jumping the gunman is likely your best course of action. To me heroism etc involves incurring risk to help others. If you are the primary beneficiary of your actions I have a hard time with words like heroism.

I sorta get what you're saying here.

Risking your life isn't the same as sacrificing your life. Especially not when you've got some skin in the game.

But still, taking a risk of death to protect other people is heroic. It's courageous. Of course, it depends on the context. A Russian in prison for murder risking his life on the battlefield in Ukraine isn't the same as the mayor in New Jersey risking his life running into a burning building.

It's all about context. The risks and rewards.
Tom

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't think anyone is obligated to sacrifice themselves for the good of the group, but sometimes people feel the need to do that. I'm thinking of the brave young man who risked his life to fight off the gunman during the horrible mass shooting that happened in or near LA this past weekend. Of course, his life was already in danger, but what he did was very courageous imo.

I'm not at all sure things like this should be considered courage--if you're in a position like that jumping the gunman is likely your best course of action. To me heroism etc involves incurring risk to help others. If you are the primary beneficiary of your actions I have a hard time with words like heroism.

I sorta get what you're saying here.

Risking your life isn't the same as sacrificing your life. Especially not when you've got some skin in the game.

But still, taking a risk of death to protect other people is heroic. It's courageous. Of course, it depends on the context. A Russian in prison for murder risking his life on the battlefield in Ukraine isn't the same as the mayor in New Jersey risking his life running into a burning building.

It's all about context. The risks and rewards.
Tom

Perhaps you are right. I just consider risking one's life to save others as the same or very similar to sacrificing one's life, but I see your point. What about someone who purposely protects a love one from a bullet? Would you consider that sacrificing one's life? Still, even when someone does that, I doubt they have. time to consider that they are probably going to die. I think it's more likely they just want to protect the other person, so they act in the spur of the moment.

Perhaps BH can give us a more detailed example of someone sacrificing a life for others.

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't think anyone is obligated to sacrifice themselves for the good of the group, but sometimes people feel the need to do that. I'm thinking of the brave young man who risked his life to fight off the gunman during the horrible mass shooting that happened in or near LA this past weekend. Of course, his life was already in danger, but what he did was very courageous imo.

I'm not at all sure things like this should be considered courage--if you're in a position like that jumping the gunman is likely your best course of action. To me heroism etc involves incurring risk to help others. If you are the primary beneficiary of your actions I have a hard time with words like heroism.

Sure, he was in danger, but he could have tried to run instead of fighting off the gunman. Plus his actions saved the lives of others. So, to me, it's still takes a lot of courage to do what that young man did. I certainly would never have the courage to do that. I'm better at talking people out of doing a bad deed. When someone is actively shooting others, there's no opportunity to talk them down. It's either fight of flight. No?

 

[Tigers!]

I remember the story of Capt. Oates on Scott's Antarctic Expedition (1910), who knowing he was dying, left the tent to gives the others more food and water.
The soldier who throws himself on a grenade to protect his comrades.

 

[Huggz_The_Satanist]

I have a question. Why should I feel morally obligated to sacrifice myself for the good of the group or others?

I'm not talking about situations where you have no power and the group forces you to do so, either by legal coercion or brute force , basically because the danger of the act of sacrifice rationally speaking has a better chance of survival than refusing the coercion into it.

You shouldn’t. You are obligated to making yourself comfortable. If helping others does that, then by all means do so. I spend my energy to support myself and my family. Because my happiness is of the upmost importance to me and my family is an extension of me in a way. I will help my neighbors and be a member of the community as it is for my benefit. As soon as it is not within my benefit to do so I am just wasting my energy.

So I guess what I am saying is that you are not morally obligated to sacrifice your self for anyone or anything, since you should be the most important thing in your life. If glory or immortality through the memories of others is desirable for you then by all means do it, make sure you are getting your something in return, tangible or not.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I suggest we sacrifice Donald J. Trump for the good of all Americans.

 

[Tigers!]

I suggest we sacrifice Donald J. Trump for the good of all Americans.

Just him? Surely you have a few others?

 

[Wiploc]

I have a question. Why should I feel morally obligated to sacrifice myself for the good of the group or others?

There are two ways to be good.

1. You can delay gratification, giving up some happiness now in order to get more gratification later.

Examples: Brushing your teeth. Doing your homework.

2. You can give up some of your own happiness to bring more happiness to others.

Examples: Paying taxes. Not raping or killing. Throwing yourself on a grenade. Sitting home with your child instead of going out drinking with your friends.

-

If you're a sociopath, if you don't want to be good, then nobody can come up with a logical reason that you should. Because you can't get from is to ought.

So pitches for being good will be esthetic arguments rather than being logical arguments. "Look at Bill, see how he gives to the food bank. Don't you admire Bill?" If such arguments do nothing for you, then you're beyond the pale.

But, if you do want to be good, then sacrificing for others is how its done. That and delaying gratification for yourself.

 

[bilby]

I remember the story of Capt. Oates on Scott's Antarctic Expedition (1910), who knowing he was dying, left the tent to gives the others more food and water.
The soldier who throws himself on a grenade to protect his comrades.

Sure, but we remember these heroes because they're the exception, and not the rule.

(And in the case of Oates, because he came from my hometown; There was even a school named after him in the suburb of Meanwood, that was a short stroll from where I grew up, and was built on the grounds of his family home).