Wait, don't you usually have to run a country into the ground before socialists start to say you're not a *real* socialist?
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Wait, don't you usually have to run a country into the ground before socialists start to say you're not a *real* socialist?
KeepTalking
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Since I'm not a socialist, and neither is Bernie, I'm not sure what your point is.
My point is that usually *after* socialists run a country into the ground, socialists apologists switch from defending them to saying they weren't *real* socialists.
KeepTalking
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It is a point that bears little relation to the topic of discussion. The reasons being:
a) Sanders is not, in fact, a socialist.
b) I am not a socialist apologist.
It's still a fun thing to bring up.
ronburgundy
Contributor
Sure, it is very easy, so are rape and murder. They are however still grossly immoral. In the case of fear-mongering, it is an attack on what makes Democracy work and a viable system compatible with reasoned progress towards common interests and fairness.
Sanders doesn't use the term in a fear-mongering manner. He actually explains his particular policies, which since most people agree with them, do not cause fear when explained. You and enemies of reasoned discourse use the term to actively avoid or to misrepresent his actual policies and views, intentionally trying to get people as irrationally afraid as possible without thinking about the facts. Your own views are so devoid of factual an rational justification that only by fueling irrational emotional reactivity can you hope to garner public support.
ronburgundy
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Actually, he is not very far left in the US either. Relative to the general population, most of his views are mainstream and widely accepted. Only relative to the US Congress is he "far left", which is because, as research demonstrates, Congress has become far right of where it was 30 years ago, and far right of the general population on most issues, and Congress persons are objectively wrong in assuming that the public is more conservative than it actually is.
untermensche
Contributor
Congress reflects the people it represents.
Most people have no representation. If you have some money, a lot of it, it is possible, not automatic, you can attract a modern US politician.
TV and credit cards
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As per the districts they drew.
Lumpenproletariat
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What will Sanders do to help WalMart etc. continue serving consumers with lower prices?
What many of us want, especially of low income, is continued and increased cheap imports from China et al.. So, what will Sanders do to promote more global competition which benefits us poor people by helping to keep down prices?
(A product I regularly buy from WalMart just went down a little in price. And I'm sure the low price I paid a few years ago for an HP printer (only $30.00) at WalMart was due in part to Carli Fiorina's cost-saving measures -- including "outsourcing" -- so, what will Bernie Sanders do to help these companies continue to serve consumers with these good practices? and protect them against the demagogues who would penalize them and thus do harm to us low-income Americans?)
What many of us want, especially of low income, is continued and increased cheap imports from China et al.. So, what will Sanders do to promote more global competition which benefits us poor people by helping to keep down prices?
(A product I regularly buy from WalMart just went down a little in price. And I'm sure the low price I paid a few years ago for an HP printer (only $30.00) at WalMart was due in part to Carli Fiorina's cost-saving measures -- including "outsourcing" -- so, what will Bernie Sanders do to help these companies continue to serve consumers with these good practices? and protect them against the demagogues who would penalize them and thus do harm to us low-income Americans?)
prideandfall
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it's an ouroboros of social failure - a political turfuckin, if you will.
the districts are what they are because 'the people' keep electing the kind of corruption shitbags who would change the districts in that manner, and then all the their manipulation really does at that point is reinforce the existing corruption and cycle of electorate stupidity.
a greedy, inept, shallow, corruption populace will produce greedy, inept, shallow, corrupt politicians. i think that blaming the result for the state of the cause is a little bizarre.
SimpleDon
Veteran Member
Sanders!
It is somewhat telling of the quality of discussion here that we have seven pages of discussion about what label to attach to Mr. Sanders and almost no discussion about anything substantial, like his policy recommendations. You would begin to think that labels are what is important, the perception, not the reality.
From his government website he lists a twelve point outline of the policies that he would persue.
Rebuilding Our Crumbling Infrastructure
Instead of wars.
I pretty much agree with this. Movement conservatism has been a disaster for our infrastructure, preferring tax relief for the wealthy on their unearned income to increase our investment in asset bubbles and non-productive paper rather than maintaining or expanding our infrastructure.
Reversing Climate Change
I got to go along with this too. It is the biggest problem facing mankind and we are ignoring it in the US, deferring to the narrow, short term interests of the carbon emitting fuel providers rather than the long term interests of all of us.
It is just a wild guess but while I agree with Sanders that climate change is the largest problem that we face I am also sure that he would disagree with me on what to do about it. I would say that we should have been building many more nuclear power plants. That the problems with nuclear power are minor and infinitially easier to solve than climate change and the problems with the other non-carbon based alternatives.
Creating Worker Co-ops
My personal experience with worker coops hasn't been all that great. But I am a proponent of the government loaning or giving grants to high risk, high reward, nation benefiting enterprises. In my experience worker's coops would qualify.
Growing the Trade Union Movement
Yes, obviously the main driver in the income inequality that we have seen over the last thirty five years is due to decreasing taxes on the rich, increasing the taxes on everyone else and suppression of the unions which in turn suppressed wages and increased profits, increasing investments in asset bubbles and the non-productive paper investments that Wall Street dreams up, barely little more than Ponzi schemes.
I would however, borrow two very successful ideas from the social democracies of Europe. Rather than having trade unions, a different union for each trade like machinists, electricans, carpenders, pipe fitters, etc. I would have a single union for each company. This way the union's interests are more nearly aligned with the company's interests. They survive together or disappear apart.
And I would switch to an industrial sector negotiation system for wages. A minimum wage is negotiated across all of the companies in an industry for each trade. The wage will therefore be the same for all of the companies in a certain industry. Then there is no competitive advantage of a single company paying a lower wage.
It has the added advantage of removing the greatest source of possible contention from the relationship of one company to their own union since the issue of wages is decided industry wide, not directly between a company and its own union.
Raising the Minimum Wage
Yes, as a starting point. We must start paying higher wages and reducing profits in the economy. It is obvious that we have too little aggregate demand in the economy and too much financial capital available; much, much more than is needed for investment in the real economy of manufacturing products for consumption, the economy that feeds, clothes, shelters and educates 99% of the population by paying them wages.
Pay Equity for Women Workers
I am not sure that this is as much of a problem as Mr. Sanders and the liberals believe. I wonder how much the lower wages of women has to do with their lower seniority and the pay scales of the type of work that women still have the majority of their jobs in like teaching. But certainly women should be paid the same as the men doing the same work.
Trade Policies that Benefit American Workers
We shouldn't be exporting our jobs to lift the wages of of other countries workers. I am sorry, but we are not responsible for lifting the boats of prosperity in other countries, with the exception of our neighbors, Mexico. At the very least we should be eliminating poverty for anyone who works in this country first, before we go trying to save the world.
Making College Affordable for All
Fifty years ago it was sufficient for us to pay for the education of our children through high school. It no longer is, we need a better educated population. We need everyone educated as well as they can be.
This should be enough to start with, I will go through the four below if anyone else is interested in talking about something more substantial than the definition of the word "socialist."
Taking on Wall Street
Health Care as a Right for All
Protecting the Most Vulnerable Americans
Real Tax Reform
It is somewhat telling of the quality of discussion here that we have seven pages of discussion about what label to attach to Mr. Sanders and almost no discussion about anything substantial, like his policy recommendations. You would begin to think that labels are what is important, the perception, not the reality.
From his government website he lists a twelve point outline of the policies that he would persue.
Rebuilding Our Crumbling Infrastructure
Instead of wars.
I pretty much agree with this. Movement conservatism has been a disaster for our infrastructure, preferring tax relief for the wealthy on their unearned income to increase our investment in asset bubbles and non-productive paper rather than maintaining or expanding our infrastructure.
Reversing Climate Change
I got to go along with this too. It is the biggest problem facing mankind and we are ignoring it in the US, deferring to the narrow, short term interests of the carbon emitting fuel providers rather than the long term interests of all of us.
It is just a wild guess but while I agree with Sanders that climate change is the largest problem that we face I am also sure that he would disagree with me on what to do about it. I would say that we should have been building many more nuclear power plants. That the problems with nuclear power are minor and infinitially easier to solve than climate change and the problems with the other non-carbon based alternatives.
Creating Worker Co-ops
My personal experience with worker coops hasn't been all that great. But I am a proponent of the government loaning or giving grants to high risk, high reward, nation benefiting enterprises. In my experience worker's coops would qualify.
Growing the Trade Union Movement
Yes, obviously the main driver in the income inequality that we have seen over the last thirty five years is due to decreasing taxes on the rich, increasing the taxes on everyone else and suppression of the unions which in turn suppressed wages and increased profits, increasing investments in asset bubbles and the non-productive paper investments that Wall Street dreams up, barely little more than Ponzi schemes.
I would however, borrow two very successful ideas from the social democracies of Europe. Rather than having trade unions, a different union for each trade like machinists, electricans, carpenders, pipe fitters, etc. I would have a single union for each company. This way the union's interests are more nearly aligned with the company's interests. They survive together or disappear apart.
And I would switch to an industrial sector negotiation system for wages. A minimum wage is negotiated across all of the companies in an industry for each trade. The wage will therefore be the same for all of the companies in a certain industry. Then there is no competitive advantage of a single company paying a lower wage.
It has the added advantage of removing the greatest source of possible contention from the relationship of one company to their own union since the issue of wages is decided industry wide, not directly between a company and its own union.
Raising the Minimum Wage
Yes, as a starting point. We must start paying higher wages and reducing profits in the economy. It is obvious that we have too little aggregate demand in the economy and too much financial capital available; much, much more than is needed for investment in the real economy of manufacturing products for consumption, the economy that feeds, clothes, shelters and educates 99% of the population by paying them wages.
Pay Equity for Women Workers
I am not sure that this is as much of a problem as Mr. Sanders and the liberals believe. I wonder how much the lower wages of women has to do with their lower seniority and the pay scales of the type of work that women still have the majority of their jobs in like teaching. But certainly women should be paid the same as the men doing the same work.
Trade Policies that Benefit American Workers
We shouldn't be exporting our jobs to lift the wages of of other countries workers. I am sorry, but we are not responsible for lifting the boats of prosperity in other countries, with the exception of our neighbors, Mexico. At the very least we should be eliminating poverty for anyone who works in this country first, before we go trying to save the world.
Making College Affordable for All
Fifty years ago it was sufficient for us to pay for the education of our children through high school. It no longer is, we need a better educated population. We need everyone educated as well as they can be.
This should be enough to start with, I will go through the four below if anyone else is interested in talking about something more substantial than the definition of the word "socialist."
Taking on Wall Street
Health Care as a Right for All
Protecting the Most Vulnerable Americans
Real Tax Reform
untermensche
Contributor
The gerrymandering is just to win elections.
It has little to do with who these people actually represent.
I've seen multiple gripes over the years that our politicians are tools.
I guess this case is just taking that to the extreme.
I guess this case is just taking that to the extreme.
SimpleDon
Veteran Member
There are two ways of approaching this. To keep prices low by continuing to subsidize the Chinese economy by raising the incomes of the Chinese as you suggest or to raise the incomes of Americans.
I think that Sanders comes down on the side of raising the incomes of Americans.
This will lower profits before it will raise prices, by the way.
SimpleDon
Veteran Member
Gerrymandering can only be part of the problem, and only about one half of the gerrymandering is to specifically favor one party over another. About one half of the gerrymandering is forced by law to increase minority representation in Congress. Affirmative action for Congress, if you will.
Of course, the gerrymandering for the Senate is proscribed by the Constitution.
All of the states gerrymander the Congressional districts except for a few like Iowa and California who have different kinds of non-partisan ways of drawing Congressional districts.
The estimates that I have seen is that currently the sum total of the effects of all of the gerrymandering that is done favors the Republicans and that currently across the country the Democrats have to poll about 54% of the total votes to have a majority in the House of Representatives.
One of the biggest problems with gerrymandering is that it creates large numbers of safe seats in Congress, which, over time, means that the holders of the safe sets become more extreme, Republicans to the right and Democrats to the left. In contested districts the Representatives tend to be more moderate.
untermensche
Contributor
Again all gerrymandering does is get people elected.
It has absolutely nothing to do with who these people represent once elected.
There is no law saying a member of Congress must represent the people who elected them. They are people to fool and feed carefully researched language to support you.
The people members of Congress actually represent don't necessarily live in their State or District., but if they do they are a tiny minority.
The Bern-mentum continues as now Sanders has officially won the hearts and minds of Democrats:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-g...ande_b_7660226.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-g...ande_b_7660226.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592
That's somewhat of a biased poll since Sanders has been going around the early primary states giving people free buckets of chicken. Then when Hillary comes through town, she brings Bill with her and he steals everybody's chicken.
This skews the results.
prideandfall
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the more ideologically pronounced candidate is polling well in one or two places 17 months before the election? STOP THE PRESSES EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD JUST CHANGED.
it's gonna be sanders vs. trump, just you wait and see.
it's gonna be sanders vs. trump, just you wait and see.