School speech pathologist fired for refusing to sign Israel oath

[Arctish]

Look at maps over time.

If you can't see the slow continual theft of land, the slow expansion into the West Bank and around Jerusalem you are just blind.

Nobody has ever said Israel has no right to defend themselves.

You are saying the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves against Israeli continual aggression.

The moral position is that both sides have the same rights and deserve the same capabilities of defense.

You're no doubt referring to that map that "shows" a transfer of control to the Jews, neglecting the fact that the vast majority of that was government-owned land that went with the government.

You have made this claim before and utterly failed to substantiate it.

Please post evidence that the 'vast majority' of land Israel seized was 'government owned', and that Israel has the authority to take another government's land under international law or treaty.

 

[untermensche]

The Palestinians were just being generous.

They wanted a fractured land.

They wanted Israel to have all the best land.

No stealing.

Not the saintly Israel.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Look at maps over time.

If you can't see the slow continual theft of land, the slow expansion into the West Bank and around Jerusalem you are just blind.

Nobody has ever said Israel has no right to defend themselves.

You are saying the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves against Israeli continual aggression.

The moral position is that both sides have the same rights and deserve the same capabilities of defense.

You're no doubt referring to that map that "shows" a transfer of control to the Jews, neglecting the fact that the vast majority of that was government-owned land that went with the government.

Oslo set who controlled development in various areas, how has that changed since?

So they are sort of homesteading it out from the reserves?

???

A Jew isn't going to be safe living outside the wall.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

View attachment 19445

The Palestinians were just being generous.

They wanted a fractured land.

They wanted Israel to have all the best land.

No stealing.

Not the saintly Israel.

The first map is the one showing all the government land as Palestinian. Thus the first to second means nothing.

The second to third is because the Arabs attacked and lost the war and then weren't willing to make peace. Don't blame Israel for that.

The only map that is at all relevant is the third to the fourth and it doesn't reflect the situation on the ground at this point.

 

[lpetrich]

The first map is the one showing all the government land as Palestinian.

What do you mean by "government land"? By succession from the Ottoman Empire, it was all Palestinian.

The second was the United Nations's rather Solomonic solution to the problem: creating two intertwined states with Jerusalem belonging to neither.

The second to third is because the Arabs attacked and lost the war and then weren't willing to make peace. Don't blame Israel for that.

I will concede that the Arabs were sore losers, and I will concede that it hurt them badly that they were not willing to accept anything less than driving those pesky Zionists into the sea. The Arabs' intransigence is a good part of the problem, when they could have made some deal when the Zionists had a much weaker presence.

The only map that is at all relevant is the third to the fourth and it doesn't reflect the situation on the ground at this point.

Loren Pechtel, draw your own map, and justify what you put into it. The fourth map shows what the Palestinians have left after what Israel has effectively taken over in the West Bank.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What do you mean by "government land"? By succession from the Ottoman Empire, it was all Palestinian.

The second was the United Nations's rather Solomonic solution to the problem: creating two intertwined states with Jerusalem belonging to neither.


I will concede that the Arabs were sore losers, and I will concede that it hurt them badly that they were not willing to accept anything less than driving those pesky Zionists into the sea. The Arabs' intransigence is a good part of the problem, when they could have made some deal when the Zionists had a much weaker presence.

The only map that is at all relevant is the third to the fourth and it doesn't reflect the situation on the ground at this point.

Loren Pechtel, draw your own map, and justify what you put into it. The fourth map shows what the Palestinians have left after what Israel has effectively taken over in the West Bank.

The fourth map reflects what happened when the Arabs once again decided to settle it by force.

 

[untermensche]

The fourth map reflects what happened when the Arabs once again decided to settle it by force.

In other words they resisted theft and violent oppression with violence. And it is not "the Arabs". That is something a sick racist would say. It is the Palestinians.

This is how oppression works.

You oppress and start stealing from a much weaker people.

Over time many of the oppressed become angry and over more time some people become violent.

Then the oppressor uses the natural reaction to oppression as an excuse to increase the theft and oppression.

A sick sick business this business of oppression and theft.

But one thing is clear.

The continual theft of land is why the oppression exists.

 

[Trausti]

Isn't the impasse that the Palestinians want to kill all Israelis and the Israelis don't want to be killed? Certainly they can come to a compromise.

 

[ruby sparks]

Isn't the impasse that the Palestinians want to kill all Israelis and the Israelis don't want to be killed? Certainly they can come to a compromise.

Yeah, that about describes it, albeit in a completely one-sided way.

 

[untermensche]

Isn't the impasse that the Palestinians want to kill all Israelis and the Israelis don't want to be killed? Certainly they can come to a compromise.

In other words oppression creates people that hate you therefore oppression can never end.

 

[Trausti]

Isn't the impasse that the Palestinians want to kill all Israelis and the Israelis don't want to be killed? Certainly they can come to a compromise.

In other words oppression creates people that hate you therefore oppression can never end.

Yeah, what if they agreed to only half or a quarter dead Jews. Would that be so hard?

 

[untermensche]

Isn't the impasse that the Palestinians want to kill all Israelis and the Israelis don't want to be killed? Certainly they can come to a compromise.

In other words oppression creates people that hate you therefore oppression can never end.

Yeah, what if they agreed to only half or a quarter dead Jews. Would that be so hard?

The oppression has made people angry.

The decades of oppression and theft have made people angry.

Therefore the oppression must go on.

I understand.

 

[Derec]

View attachment 19445

Not that stupid map yet again!

 

[untermensche]

The first map shows what Palestinians controlled and what Jews controlled.

The second map shows the UN designated borders after the Jews used violence to take what they wanted.

The third map shows what Palestinians have been willing to accept with joint control of Jerusalem for a long time.

The fourth map shows the continual non-stop theft of land since 1967.

 

[Derec]

What do you mean by "government land"? By succession from the Ottoman Empire, it was all Palestinian.

How do you figure that? "Palestinian" as an ethnic term wasn't even invented until the 1960s. At the time we are talking about here, it was purely a geographic term.
The creation of "Palestinian people" as distinct from other Arabs was done to further the goal of fighting against Israel.

Mohsen was a PLO leader in the 70s.

The second was the United Nations's rather Solomonic solution to the problem: creating two intertwined states with Jerusalem belonging to neither.

Which the Arabs rejected, in favor of war. They started a war, they lost, and are now crying foul. Should Germany get Elsass-Lothringen and better part of Preussen back too?

I will concede that the Arabs were sore losers, and I will concede that it hurt them badly that they were not willing to accept anything less than driving those pesky Zionists into the sea. The Arabs' intransigence is a good part of the problem, when they could have made some deal when the Zionists had a much weaker presence.

To quote Abba Eban: "The Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."

Loren Pechtel, draw your own map, and justify what you put into it. The fourth map shows what the Palestinians have left after what Israel has effectively taken over in the West Bank.

- The fourth map is the first ever Palestinian polity in history and as such represents a territory gain of ∞%!
- In the third map the green territories were part of Egypt and Jordan. They were not Palestinian. Neither was there an international call to form a Palestinian state out of these two territories then.
- The second map is the UN partition that Arabs rejected, starting a war. It does not represent any actually existing state of affairs.
- The first map presumes that the initial condition is "Palestinian", which has no basis in fact.

 

[untermensche]

The Palestinians were first denied the right to statehood by the British then by the Israelis.

Saying they have no history of statehood is meaningless hand waving.

 

[Derec]

The first map shows what Palestinians controlled and what Jews controlled.

Palestinians didn't control shit. For one, there was no "Palestinian" as an ethnic term before PLO invented it. Second, Arabs didn't control it. Before WWI was Ottoman (Turks are not Arabs and they get pissed off if you think they are, so I would be careful!) and then it was under British rule after Ottoman Empire collapsed.

The second map shows the UN designated borders

It was a Partition Plan that the Arabs rejected, choosing to go to war instead. As it does not represent any actual borders, it has no place in a graphic that supposedly (but not really) shows how borders have shifted over time.

after the Jews used violence to take what they wanted.

There was actually a lot of Arab violence against Jews. But you can't acknowledge that because of your deep-seated hatred against the Jews.

The third map shows what Palestinians have been willing to accept with joint control of Jerusalem for a long time.

Huh? They have not accepted anything. At that time, all Palestinian factions sought to destroy Israel.
And besides, it was Jordan that controlled East Jerusalem, not any "Palestine".

The fourth map shows the continual non-stop theft of land since 1967.

West Bank (or Judea and Samaria) are disputed territories. And Israel gave the entire Gaza Strip back in 2005. The Palestinians repaid that by shooting hundreds of rockets at Israeli civilians, necessitating a blockade and three military engagements (Cast Lead 2008, Pillar of Defense 2012 and Protective Edge 2014) against the Strip's Naziesque rulers (i.e. Hamas).

 

[ruby sparks]

View attachment 19445

Not that stupid map yet again!
View attachment 19467

The pro-Zionist British had been in favour of 'planting' Palestine with Jews since WW1. I think it is fair to say that over a period of about 30 or so years after 1916, the land was more or less snatched from its mainly arab occupants and given to jewish immigrants.

 

[Derec]

The Palestinians were first denied the right to statehood by the British then by the Israelis.

Arabs/Palestinians have been given the opportunity for a state several times since the Partition Plan.
For one, between 1949 and 1967 it would have been Egypt and Jordan who would have had to sign off on creation of "Palestine", not Israel.
Since 1967, Palestinians were given partial autonomy in 1993 Oslo Accords, were offered a state in 2000 Camp David talks, and Israel disengaged from the entire Gaza Strip in 2005.
Palestinians respond with terror to all these overtures toward peace. It's difficult to trade land for peace when the other side doesn't want peace, only land - and all of it!
Hamas chief: We won’t discuss recognizing Israel, only wiping it out
That's not just anybody, that's Reichsführer-SS, I mean head of Hamas in Gaza, Yaya Sinwar.

 

[Derec]

The pro-Zionist British had been in favour of 'planting' Palestine with Jews since WW1. I think it is fair to say that over a period of about 30 or so years after 1916, the land was more or less snatched from its mainly arab occupants and given to jewish immigrants.

During the time that there was Jewish immigration into geographic Palestine there was also Arab immigration.

Even the UNRWA definition of "Palestinian refugee" only requires that the ancestor of the "refugee" lived in "Palestine" for 2 years before the creation of Israel.

Palestine refugees are defined as “persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine during the period 1 June 1946 to 15 May 1948, and who lost both home and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 conflict.”

It's hardly the case that these people lived there since time immemorial. And you know these old-looking keys the "refugees" always hold up?

There is a workshop in Gaza that makes those.

It's a scam and many well-meaning Westerners (I do not count people like unter as "well-meaning) have fallen for it.