SCOTUS to take the cake

[Jason Harvestdancer]

A banana vendor doesn't sell carved bananas. A cake vendor does bake capes in many shapes and sizes. Saying "but I don't make them in the shape of a baseball cap" is ridiculous - it's a dome and a rim. Or just a dome with a painted rim. Duh. If you want to argue by analogy in order to ignore the basic similarities between bakers and bakers, you're going to have to try harder.

 

[laughing dog]

A banana vendor doesn't sell carved bananas. A cake vendor does bake capes in many shapes and sizes. Saying "but I don't make them in the shape of a baseball cap" is ridiculous - it's a dome and a rim. Or just a dome with a painted rim. Duh. If you want to argue by analogy in order to ignore the basic similarities between bakers and bakers, you're going to have to try harder.

Bakers are not required to bake cakes in any particular shape regardless of the ease or difficulty of the design. If a baker does not bake a cake in a particular design for anyone, then the baker does not bake that type of cake. It is ridiculous to claim otherwise.

We don't know if this woman's story is true as told. I have been unable to find any source that has verified her claim that bakers refused to bake a Trump cake. So, as far as I can tell, not only is your argument about this is illogical, there appears no factual basis for your illogical argument in the first place.

 

[zorq]

A banana vendor doesn't sell carved bananas. A cake vendor does bake capes in many shapes and sizes. Saying "but I don't make them in the shape of a baseball cap" is ridiculous - it's a dome and a rim. Or just a dome with a painted rim. Duh. If you want to argue by analogy in order to ignore the basic similarities between bakers and bakers, you're going to have to try harder.

You STILL don't see the difference? Wow.

Fine, let's flesh out Jolly Penguin's analogy.

Suppose there are two mouse vendors who sell mice styled to look like celebrities. They style mice's hair... They fashion iconic outfits... You get the picture. One mouse vendor refuses to sell ANY mice to snake owners, and the other vendor refuses to sell a mouse specially styled to look like Hitler.

Can you figure out the difference? The only flaw with this one is that Snake ownership is a choice and a luxury as opposed to an immutable characteristic some people are born with.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

A banana vendor doesn't sell carved bananas. A cake vendor does bake capes in many shapes and sizes. Saying "but I don't make them in the shape of a baseball cap" is ridiculous - it's a dome and a rim. Or just a dome with a painted rim. Duh. If you want to argue by analogy in order to ignore the basic similarities between bakers and bakers, you're going to have to try harder.

You STILL don't see the difference? Wow.

You STILL don't see the commonality? Wow.

 

[repoman]

An analogy that might go to the heart of anti-gay revullsion (homorevulsion, not homophobia) would be that they would see that as if they were selling it so someone who was going to use it in a scat porn video where the cake would be shit on and then eaten. That is sort how they see gay marriage I guess. That irrational level of revulsion is crazy. The civil right of gay people to be married now should be free from this irrational feeling of the baker.

So bear with me, if the customer said the cake would be used for scat porn, would a baker be allowed to refuse to the cake?

This choice to live a "lifestyle" nonsense that religious people have would be consistent with them being being right to refuse service. They are wrong on the facts, however.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you are in the business of raising and selling mice as pets, are you allowed to refuse to sell to somebody who says they want the mice to feed no their pet snake?

I think that is a better analogy getting at how the cake Baker views the sale of the cake. It is the same item but being put to a different use (as the baker sees it) to the point that he would argue it changes the nature of the item.

They were in the business of making cakes, including wedding cakes.

A couple sought a wedding cake.

The desired product is squarely in line with their normal business activity.

A better comparison to your case would be if Fear Factor came knocking seeking a cake that a contestant might end up faceplanting into. I would not mind if they turned the TV show down.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A banana vendor doesn't sell carved bananas. A cake vendor does bake capes in many shapes and sizes. Saying "but I don't make them in the shape of a baseball cap" is ridiculous - it's a dome and a rim. Or just a dome with a painted rim. Duh. If you want to argue by analogy in order to ignore the basic similarities between bakers and bakers, you're going to have to try harder.

Bakers are not required to bake cakes in any particular shape regardless of the ease or difficulty of the design. If a baker does not bake a cake in a particular design for anyone, then the baker does not bake that type of cake. It is ridiculous to claim otherwise.

We don't know if this woman's story is true as told. I have been unable to find any source that has verified her claim that bakers refused to bake a Trump cake. So, as far as I can tell, not only is your argument about this is illogical, there appears no factual basis for your illogical argument in the first place.

And even if they did refuse, I have no problem with a place having a "no political messages" or "no controversial messages" policy.

Now, if you can show they baked Clinton cakes but refuse to bake Trump cakes, I have a problem.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

In another round of "Bake the damn cake"...

Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of his cafe over 'offensive' anti-abortion leaflet

Trying to find a "just the facts" article is difficult as the right-wing press is picking up on this and spreading it all over. Their accusation of hypocrisy is justified though.

A cafe owner kicked a group of Christians out of his coffee shop because he was 'offended' by their leaflets calling for the abolition of abortion.

Members of the Abolish Human Abortion group decided to take a break from leafleting at Seattle's Bedlam Cafe, but when the owner realised who was drinking in his shop, he reacted furiously.


Ben Borgman told the group to leave because he is gay .

In the video of the rant, he says: "I'm gay, you have to leave."

Asked if he is denying them service, he says "yes".

He continues: "This is offensive to me. I own the place. I have the right to be offended.

So they weren't doing their activism IN the shop. They were taking a break from activism to drink coffee. The owner of the stop decided that he didn't like their beliefs and threw them out.

If I see someone who believe in "bake the damn cake" praising this, I too will call out hypocrisy. My stand, that private business owners aren't obliged to serve anyone and can refuse service at any time for any reason, remains unchanged.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So they weren't doing their activism IN the shop. They were taking a break from activism to drink coffee.

Then how did the owner become aware of their activism?

Ben Borgman told the group to leave because he is gay .

That doesn't seem to follow too clearly.
'Leave because I'm pro-choice' seems a more likely response to their activism. Absurd, but at least even I could connect those dots.

But if he's a gay man, he's like, SUPER-not-ever going to need to exercise his right to abortion... How does his being gay support his decision to throw them out for being anti-choice?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Usually those who are pro-life instead of pro-choice are religious Christians who take a dim view on homosexuality. You remember the big divide between the pro-life anti-gay Republicans and the pro-choice pro-gay Democrats. It isn't a universal, of course, but those combinations occur often enough to make a valid generalization.

So although there is no apparent connection, there is a real connection.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

In another round of "Bake the damn cake"...

Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of his cafe over 'offensive' anti-abortion leaflet

Trying to find a "just the facts" article is difficult as the right-wing press is picking up on this and spreading it all over. Their accusation of hypocrisy is justified though.

Well, if you haven't found all the facts, that judgment would likely be premature.

So they weren't doing their activism IN the shop.

Is this a fact?

They were taking a break from activism to drink coffee. The owner of the stop decided that he didn't like their beliefs and threw them out.

Is this a fact?

If I see someone who believe in "bake the damn cake" praising this, I too will call out hypocrisy. My stand, that private business owners aren't obliged to serve anyone and can refuse service at any time for any reason, remains unchanged.

And we are so thankful we have you here to be the Arbiter of Hypocrisy.

And thanks to the Internet, people can feel free and leave opinions everywhere, including Yelp.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

And we are so thankful we have you here to be the Arbiter of Hypocrisy.

I think I know who might be feeling uncomfortable...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This seems to be more complete.

It seems like he tried to boot them once he learned who they were, an anti-abortion group that prints out crap shit and tries to hand it to people. There is no allegation they were distributing anything in the shop. I would say there are similarities between the two cases, but these aren't directly parallel.

- - - Updated - - -

And we are so thankful we have you here to be the Arbiter of Hypocrisy.

I think I know who might be feeling uncomfortable...

Do you think that all of us liberals join up online, and develop a code of ethics that we all sign off on. Therefore if one gay male does something, that it automatically means all other liberals are legally obligated to stand by it?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I think I know who might be feeling uncomfortable...

Do you think that all of us liberals join up online, and develop a code of ethics that we all sign off on. Therefore if one gay male does something, that it automatically means all other liberals are legally obligated to stand by it?

I was talking about you in particular. You started this thread to say the bakers were wrong and should bake the damn cake. You got all irate when I said I would call out hypocrisy if I see it. It looks like you might be feeling some discomfort about this case.

What is YOUR position on the behavior of the owner of this coffee shop?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do you think that all of us liberals join up online, and develop a code of ethics that we all sign off on. Therefore if one gay male does something, that it automatically means all other liberals are legally obligated to stand by it?

I was talking about you in particular. You started this thread to say the bakers were wrong and should bake the damn cake. You got all irate when I said I would call out hypocrisy if I see it.

You need to look up the word "irate" and learn what it means.

It looks like you might be feeling some discomfort about this case.

Why would I feel uncomfortable about this case? I'm under no obligation to offer apologetics for every liberal on the face of the Earth, or even just Ohio. Heck, being gay doesn't even have to make him a liberal!

What is YOUR position on the behavior of the owner of this coffee shop?

I think he got "irate".

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Do you think he is morally in the right? Do you think he is legally in the right? Do you think he should be legally in the right?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do you think he is morally in the right? Do you think he is legally in the right? Do you think he should be legally in the right?

Based on the information available, he kicked out customers due to generally a political view they had, which isn't appropriate. As long as they weren't using his place to sell a political message, they should be allowed there. I can entirely understand his frustration, but the world won't be able to get anything done if we create walls like that.

I have no idea if he had a legal right. Pro-life activists aren't a protected class. People aren't born pro-life.

I don't think he should have a legal right to do so.

 

[blastula]

In another round of "Bake the damn cake"...

Gay coffee shop owner kicks Christians out of his cafe over 'offensive' anti-abortion leaflet

Trying to find a "just the facts" article is difficult as the right-wing press is picking up on this and spreading it all over. Their accusation of hypocrisy is justified though.

A cafe owner kicked a group of Christians out of his coffee shop because he was 'offended' by their leaflets calling for the abolition of abortion.

Members of the Abolish Human Abortion group decided to take a break from leafleting at Seattle's Bedlam Cafe, but when the owner realised who was drinking in his shop, he reacted furiously.


Ben Borgman told the group to leave because he is gay .

In the video of the rant, he says: "I'm gay, you have to leave."

Asked if he is denying them service, he says "yes".

He continues: "This is offensive to me. I own the place. I have the right to be offended.

So they weren't doing their activism IN the shop. They were taking a break from activism to drink coffee. The owner of the stop decided that he didn't like their beliefs and threw them out.

If I see someone who believe in "bake the damn cake" praising this, I too will call out hypocrisy. My stand, that private business owners aren't obliged to serve anyone and can refuse service at any time for any reason, remains unchanged.

Multiple posts into this thread and you're still clueless that the gay customers never asked the bakers to say anything on any cake. All they did is ask for a wedding cake and were refused.

 

[sharon45]

Pro-life activists aren't a protected class. People aren't born pro-life.

Why does being supposedly born that way have any bearing?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Usually those who are pro-life instead of pro-choice are religious Christians who take a dim view on homosexuality. You remember the big divide between the pro-life anti-gay Republicans and the pro-choice pro-gay Democrats. It isn't a universal, of course, but those combinations occur often enough to make a valid generalization.

So although there is no apparent connection, there is a real connection.

I know there's probably overlap in their positions on abortion and homosexuality.
I'm saying that the story, however, doesn't appear to show anything like a complete narrative.

There were some people who were not being anti-abortionist and a cafe owner threw them out of his shop for the activities they were not engaged in... Still wondering how he knew who/what they were and why he took it upon himself to be offended, if they were being so peaceful and consumerish.