Selection pressures for long hair and beards in humans?

[excreationist]

Note I added "I know the style is cultural but long hair gives them a lot to work with. Hair like apes doesn't allow many possibilities at all."

How do you know this? More important, why is any of this even important?

I started this thread because I was curious about it. Initially I thought it caused problems with the theory of evolution. Initially in this thread no-one presented any decent explanations for long hair/beards.

Grooming habits seem astoundingly trivial to me as a subject, and certainly have little value with respect to evolutionary biology.

Actually it is relevant in illustrations of early homonids. In your picture they had messy hair even though theoretically they could have used combs to have very neat hair.

And, of course, as noted, plenty of cultures at different times featured big beards and long hair, while others prized clean shaving and short hair. So what?

I think it shows how civilized they are - never cutting/combing vs cutting/combing vs very elaborate styles including $1000 haircuts....

 

[pood]

Charlie, don’t you know you are supposed to trim or comb or even cut off your damned beard, according to your own theory of evolution as decoded by excreationist? Hell, even hunter-gatherers did that, according to him! Edited to add: another damn webp image; don’t know yet how to convert those to jpeg.

View attachment 4F436DF8-A58A-46B2-95B0-366571A95054.webp

 

[pood]

Grooming habits seem astoundingly trivial to me as a subject, and certainly have little value with respect to evolutionary biology.

Actually it is relevant in illustrations of early homonids. In your picture they had messy hair even though theoretically they could have used combs to have very neat hair.

Are you serious? You think ancestral humans had combs?

 

[pood]

So, you think neatly combed hair is important. Good for you! This insight of yours has nothng to do with evolution, though, but it might past muster on a personal grooming and fashion message board.

 

[bilby]

 

[pood]

I think it shows how civilized they are - never cutting/combing vs cutting/combing vs very elaborate styles including $1000 haircuts....

So, thousand-dollar haircuts make you more civilized?

 

[pood]

If you pay a thousand dollars for a damned haircut I’d say it makes you a total idiot.

 

[bilby]

My last haircut cost AU$37 (~US$25), and I think that’s outrageously expensive.

 

[excreationist]

Actually it is relevant in illustrations of early homonids. In your picture they had messy hair even though theoretically they could have used combs to have very neat hair.

Are you serious? You think ancestral humans had combs?

Consider this:

As any African can tell you, if you have a big afro, you need a comb. If you don't have a comb you'll get one big massive and gross dreadlock. So modern African hair has clearly evolved in concert with modern tool use for grooming.

Apparently our ancestors used fire a lot 300,000 - 400,000 years ago - and the controlled use of fire could be a million years ago. You're saying that even 200,000 years ago they had no combs. I get the impression is that your reason is that it would look very odd for a cave-man to have well combed hair.... i.e. "the appeal to ridicule".

 

[excreationist]

I think it shows how civilized they are - never cutting/combing vs cutting/combing vs very elaborate styles including $1000 haircuts....

So, thousand-dollar haircuts make you more civilized?

Yes more cultured and refined and classy... or trendy.... then there are those elaborate wigs that judges use - originally they'd be their actual hair rather than a wig...

 

[bilby]

Actually it is relevant in illustrations of early homonids. In your picture they had messy hair even though theoretically they could have used combs to have very neat hair.

Are you serious? You think ancestral humans had combs?

Consider this:

As any African can tell you, if you have a big afro, you need a comb. If you don't have a comb you'll get one big massive and gross dreadlock. So modern African hair has clearly evolved in concert with modern tool use for grooming.

Apparently our ancestors used fire a lot 300,000 - 400,000 years ago - and the controlled use of fire could be a million years ago. You're saying that even 200,000 years ago they had no combs. I get the impression is that your reason is that it would look very odd for a cave-man to have well combed hair.... i.e. "the appeal to ridicule".

I get the impression that Pood’s reason is that the earliest archaeological evidence for combs is about 7,000 years ago, and 7 is dramatically less than 200; ie “the appeal to evidence”.

But that’s just a guess.

 

[excreationist]

I get the impression that Pood’s reason is that the earliest archaeological evidence for combs is about 7,000 years ago, and 7 is dramatically less than 200; ie “the appeal to evidence”.

But that’s just a guess.

What about what DrZoidberg said:

As any African can tell you, if you have a big afro, you need a comb. If you don't have a comb you'll get one big massive and gross dreadlock.

BTW if you cut the hair regularly then I think combs aren't very important. My main point is about cutting the hair and beards rather than combing it.
So I'm saying pictures of cave-men could have had different hair cuts - from long hair to shaven, etc. Which some people might think is ridiculous mainly due to the pictures looking odd.
Also many hunter-gathers have very neat long or medium hair even without the invention of combs.

200,000 years ago, no one had combs, razor blades, shaving cream, scissors, and other grooming devices, and women did not shave their legs. And yet everyone kept getting laid. Go figure!

pood seemed to be saying there were no technologies to cut hair either

 

[excreationist]

Grooming habits seem astoundingly trivial to me as a subject, and certainly have little value with respect to evolutionary biology.

Actually it is relevant in illustrations of early homonids. In your picture they had messy hair even though theoretically they could have used combs to have very neat hair.

Are you serious? You think ancestral humans had combs?

My point is about having neat hair - not necessarily having combs.
e.g. very neat hair like this:

 

[pood]

What is your bizarre fixation with people having neat hair, up to and including getting $1,000 haircuts, for christ sake? Did you get a look at that beard on Charlie Darwin? What has any of this to do with evolution? Or anything at all beyond the mind-bendingly trivial? And no, I don’t think ancient hunter-gatherers were into good grooming and neat hair. There are isolated modern hunter-gatherers who may practice grooming, no doubt because of contact with civilization and its products. But honestly, who cares? Anyway, I can pretty much assure you that ancestral humans were not combing their hair!

 

[Elixir]

My last haircut cost AU$37 (~US$25), and I think that’s outrageously expensive.

Agreed!
There came a point when my hair was thinning and the price of a haircut was doubling. I thought “I gotta make a deal and have them charge by the hair”.

 

[excreationist]

What is your bizarre fixation with people having neat hair, up to and including getting $1,000 haircuts, for christ sake?

I find it interesting to investigate. I mentioned $1000 haircuts once because it shows how serious some people can take grooming and that is related to being a good provider because you'd have to be rich to get an expensive haircut - while homeless people with messy hair are poor providers.

Did you get a look at that beard on Charlie Darwin? What has any of this to do with evolution?

Long hair and beards evolved. Cutting hair and grooming usually happens so that it doesn't get knotted and grow more than a foot.

Or anything at all beyond the mind-bendingly trivial? And no, I don’t think ancient hunter-gatherers were into good grooming and neat hair.

If they didn't then they'd look like this:

I've been unable to find any pictures of hunter-gatherers who never do some grooming and never cut their hair/beards (I consider grooming to include cutting hair and beards). Can you find any pictures?

There are isolated modern hunter-gatherers who may practice grooming, no doubt because of contact with civilization and its products.

Some of those amazon tribes have only had contact with civilization fairly recently. So you're saying this tribe only started keeping their hair neat after contact with civilization?

But honestly, who cares? Anyway, I can pretty much assure you that ancestral humans were not combing their hair!

I had assumed that that neat hair above involved combs - but my point is that it is extremely neat no matter how they did it.

 

[atrib]

Some thoughts - the potential to have long hair and a long beard could exist so it is easy to distinguish between a homeless man and a well groomed man.... the well groomed man would be a better provider.... or something like that....

Do you really believe that there were well groomed men with cool haircuts and neatly trimmed beards running around 50,000 years ago? Or 200,000 years ago?

 

[atrib]

Well I think it is the best explanation about the use of hair and beards that I know of. I'm not very concerned about whether it is the actual reason or not.

Oh, nevermind. You don't really care whether your pet hypothesis is reasonable or not and whether there is any data to support it. You think its a good idea, and that's all that matter. Carry on....

 

[atrib]

I'm not very concerned about whether it is the actual reason or not.

Then why start the thread?

I thought that scientists might have explanations that they think are likely to be true.... then I came up with the grooming explanation.... and at this point I'm not worried if there is in fact some other reason. Though I think my explanation is true to some extent.

 

[Jarhyn]

Some thoughts - the potential to have long hair and a long beard could exist so it is easy to distinguish between a homeless man and a well groomed man.... the well groomed man would be a better provider.... or something like that....

Do you really believe that there were well groomed men with cool haircuts and neatly trimmed beards running around 50,000 years ago? Or 200,000 years ago?

If they knew by that point how to braid a cord and make sharp rocks to cut hair, yes.

Humans have an inmate eye to vanity in that respect, and I expect it has been happening for as long as we have had woven rope.

Also, it happens to be a really good indicator of how skilled someone is at making baskets, braiding rope, and weaving shit.

I expect that at one point in history, people with unkempt hair were even more rejected by the tribe than they are today.