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Shall we discuss the 2016 Democratic Primary yet again?


Before I go the bother of downloading this,
Does the author recognize that the Democrats are a private organization doing business? They have no responsibility for democratic values or anything like that?

If not, it's not worth downloading.
Tom

Excuse me?

Elections are either democratic or despotic.

There is nothing else.
 
Before I go the bother of downloading this,
Does the author recognize that the Democrats are a private organization doing business? They have no responsibility for democratic values or anything like that?

If not, it's not worth downloading.
Tom

Excuse me?

Elections are either democratic or despotic.

There is nothing else.

You're kidding yourself.
Tom
 
Before I go the bother of downloading this,
Does the author recognize that the Democrats are a private organization doing business? They have no responsibility for democratic values or anything like that?

If not, it's not worth downloading.
Tom

Excuse me?

Elections are either democratic or despotic.

There is nothing else.

You're kidding yourself.
Tom

So we should not care what Trump did in January?

Democracy has no foundational rules.

Like all the votes should be counted and count and voters should not be excluded illegally.

Not to mention a corporate media muddying the water.
 
You're kidding yourself.
Tom

So we should not care what Trump did in January?

Democracy has no foundational rules.

Like all the votes should be counted and count and voters should not be excluded illegally.

Not to mention a corporate media muddying the water.

None of that has anything to do with what I actually posted.
You described all elections as either democratic or despotic. That's demonstrably false.
That's what I responded to.
Tom
 
You're kidding yourself.
Tom

So we should not care what Trump did in January?

Democracy has no foundational rules.

Like all the votes should be counted and count and voters should not be excluded illegally.

Not to mention a corporate media muddying the water.

None of that has anything to do with what I actually posted.
You described all elections as either democratic or despotic. That's demonstrably false.
That's what I responded to.
Tom

I define democracy as counting the votes cast and then having those votes actually count for something.

That is just one feature. The basics.

When Bernie wins every country in West Virginia but Hillary gets every vote at the convention that is not democracy.

It is despotism.

When voting registration computers are hacked and party affiliations are changed to prevent people from voting that is not democracy.

That is despotism.

When Super Delegates are bought that is not democracy.

It is despotism.
 
When Bernie wins every country in West Virginia but Hillary gets every vote at the convention that is not democracy.

Wait. Hillary did not get every vote. What are you talking about?

How did that happen?

If it were a democratic process, Bernie would have garnered 18 West Virginia delegates, Hillary 11 and West Virginia would have been in the Bernie column at the convention.

Instead, the vote at the convention went 19 votes for Hillary and 18 votes for Bernie.
 
When Bernie wins every country in West Virginia but Hillary gets every vote at the convention that is not democracy.

Wait. Hillary did not get every vote. What are you talking about?

How did that happen?

If it were a democratic process, Bernie would have garnered 18 West Virginia delegates, Hillary 11 and West Virginia would have been in the Bernie column at the convention.

Instead, the vote at the convention went 19 votes for Hillary and 18 votes for Bernie.

She got no delegates through a democratic process.
 
Excuse me?

Elections are either democratic or despotic.

There is nothing else.

EnChroma® sells eyeglasses to help those unable to differentiate shades of yellow and green.

You may want to inquire if they have anything to help distinguish shades of gray! :)
 
Excuse me?

Elections are either democratic or despotic.

There is nothing else.

EnChroma® sells eyeglasses to help those unable to differentiate shades of yellow and green.

You may want to inquire if they have anything to help distinguish shades of gray! :)

Democracy is when the voters decide.

Despotism is when some small click decides.
 
The Democrats have moved right as the Republicans have moved far out to the insane radical right.

The Democrats abandoned the left.

That is completely and utterly wrong! Democrats have moved hard to the Left since 2016.

Look at Biden. He campaigned as a moderate, but is governing as an honorary Squad member! He knows the eviction moratorium extension is illegal, and yet he extended it!
And the $3.5T non-infrastructure bill he is pushing is a left-wing wish list.

And look at Nancy Pelosi. She says that the House will block the bipartisan infrastructure bill unless the $3.5T bill is passed by the Senate.
That is not moving to the right, that is moving to the left!

Bill Clinton is to thank for it.
Bill Clinton was great compared to the modern Democratic Party that is full of DSA members and sympathizers!
 
The Democrats have moved right as the Republicans have moved far out to the insane radical right.

The Democrats abandoned the left.

That is completely and utterly wrong! Democrats have moved hard to the Left since 2016.

?

You have no idea what the left is.

Look at Biden. He campaigned as a moderate, but is governing as an honorary Squad member! He knows the eviction moratorium extension is illegal, and yet he extended it!
And the $3.5T non-infrastructure bill he is pushing is a left-wing wish list.

Dealing with the problems from a pandemic is not left or right.

It is merely dealing with an emergency. An emergency politicized by Trump for some insane reason.

Allowing people to be thrown out in the streets because of an emergency the right made worse by creating armies of anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers is bad policy. Doing something about it is not policy from the left. It is sanity.

Taking care of crumbling and third rate infrastructure instead of just another tax cut for the most rich is called sanity and prudence. It is not a left wing policy.

You think good policy is far left because the insane right wing has no good policy. The policies from Republicans are destroying the middle class, creating more poor, and putting money into the pockets of those who need it least.

Oh yeah, the insane right wing is also lying about events on Jan 6th nonstop as well.

And look at Nancy Pelosi. She says that the House will block the bipartisan infrastructure bill unless the $3.5T bill is passed by the Senate.
That is not moving to the right, that is moving to the left!

Dong what it takes to get the Republicans to behave sanely and rationally is not a left policy.

Bill Clinton was great compared to the modern Democratic Party that is full of DSA members and sympathizers!

You're deluded.

You are part of the insane far right.

You don't care about the costs of a pandemic or doing something about crumbling infrastructure.

You make my point well.

The Republicans have moved so far right over the last decades they have absolutely no connection to the real world.
 
You are part of the insane far right.

Yes he is. And you are talking to him as if he was a "centrist at heart" or something else that he's not.
I mean, if you are enjoying it, carry on. But surely you know what to expect by now.

Yes, The Republicans bolted to the right as soon as they decided to unite behind the orange clown. They all suddenly stopped calling him what he is and began fawning over him and his Nazi racism. The are now so far right they are over the horizon, and may well fade from view entirely if they can't cheat their way back into power in the 2022 elections. The left has gotten dragged along in the draft created by their movement, it has been so rapid. Progressives are now virtually marooned on an island of what used to be centrism for a social democracy. It looks like they are going to drop off their support for the mainstream Dem party that has moved away from them so violently, and thereby create a perfect opening for the return of The Right Reich.
 
You have no idea what the left is.
Oh, I have, but do you? You seem to only accept the very far left as belonging to the left at all.
Do you even consider AOC and her Squad as being left?

Dealing with the problems from a pandemic is not left or right.
It is merely dealing with an emergency. An emergency politicized by Trump for some insane reason.
It isn't, but then again, I never said it was.
And for all the hatred Trump gets, things like stimulus checks, enhanced unemployment and even the eviction moratorium originated under the Trump.

Again, it is very much right to spend in an emergency. It is also right to spend on infrastructure after long years of neglect.
But all that spending is not free. We need to be cognizant of this massive recent spending when proposing new spending. To insist that in addition to all these trillions of dollars of extraordinary spending over the last 2 years, a huge $3.5T bill filled with random left-wing spending priorities should be passed is very much left wing.
To say that the $3.5T bill, the most left-wing spending bill since FDR or at least LBJ is not "left wing", is very dishonest.

Allowing people to be thrown out in the streets because of an emergency the right made worse by creating armies of anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers is bad policy.
The eviction moratorium was legally always iffy. But it did make some sense as a policy in the early months of the pandemic when much of the economy was shut down. Now pretty much everything is open, and there is no justification for it. The policy has outlived its usefulness by at least half a year and probably closer to a year.

care of crumbling and third rate infrastructure instead of just another tax cut for the most rich is called sanity and prudence. It is not a left wing policy.

Taking care of infrastructure is indeed not a left wing policy, which is why that bill is indeed bipartisan.

It is the leftists in Congress that want to block the infrastructure bill if their $3.5T bill of random lefty spending is not passed. .

You think good policy is far left because the insane right wing has no good policy. The policies from Republicans are destroying the middle class, creating more poor, and putting money into the pockets of those who need it least.
I think it is bad policy of spending another $3.5T on random stuff like more subsidies for parents when we have already spent a lot of money on Covid and are fixing to spend a lot on infrastructure. Inflation is rising, and now is not the time to go on yet another spending binge, especially when there is no good way that the bill will be funded. But I know, money printer go brrrr ...

Oh yeah, the insane right wing is also lying about events on Jan 6th nonstop as well.

And the insane left wing is constitutionally incapable of shutting the fuck up about that single day of rioting.

The insane left wing has been rioting since 2014 and is still lying about Michael Brown's death.
Tlaib claims Michael Brown case 'state sponsored murder' after Obama DOJ probe cleared officer

Dong what it takes to get the Republicans to behave sanely and rationally is not a left policy.
It's a left wing policy to block a moderate, bipartisan bill if a left-wing $3.5T random spending bill is not passed at the same time.
Pelosi and the House "progressives" (euphemism for "far left" in American political parlance) are holding the infrastructure hostage!

You're deluded.
No, you are.

You are part of the insane far right.
I am sure it appears that way from where you are standing, all the way on the outer leftist fringe, many parsecs from the middle.

You don't care about the costs of a pandemic or doing something about crumbling infrastructure.
I do. That spending was and is necessary. The $3.5T bill that the Dems want to force feed to the American public is not. In fact, it will mean a massive increase in debt and more inflation because it cannot be paid for unless Dems pass massive tax increases including on those making less than $400k, which is not going to happen.

The Republicans have moved so far right over the last decades they have absolutely no connection to the real world.
Neither do the so-called "progressive" Democrats that think money grows on trees ...
 
Progressives are now virtually marooned on an island of what used to be centrism for a social democracy.

Far from being "marooned", the so-called "progressives" (aka far left of the Democratic Party) are most likely going to be successful in extorting $3.5T from the Senate.

It looks like they are going to drop off their support for the mainstream Dem party that has moved away from them so violently, and thereby create a perfect opening for the return of The Right Reich.

More likely the Dems will cave to the loony left and pass the $3.5T random spending bill.
And if you are calling Republicans The Reich, I guess I can call the so-called "Progressive Caucus" The Soviets ...
 
Oh, I have, but do you? You seem to only accept the very far left as belonging to the left at all.
Do you even consider AOC and her Squad as being left?

In the rest of the civilized world they are center of the spectrum.

The idea that healthcare is a human right is central in the vast majority of the world.

Wanting to do something about climate change is slightly right and conservative in most of the civilized world.

Denial of man-made climate change is so far right it is off the spectrum. It is insanity with no connection to the real world.

Climate change denial is only supported by the money of the rich and the traitors to humanity that work for them.

And for all the hatred Trump gets, things like stimulus checks, enhanced unemployment and even the eviction moratorium originated under the Trump.

Trump deliberately lied about the danger of the pandemic. Had death rallies to celebrate his greatness.

The Congress did those things.

Again, it is very much right to spend in an emergency. It is also right to spend on infrastructure after long years of neglect.
But all that spending is not free. We need to be cognizant of this massive recent spending when proposing new spending. To insist that in addition to all these trillions of dollars of extraordinary spending over the last 2 years, a huge $3.5T bill filled with random left-wing spending priorities should be passed is very much left wing.

It is only left wing if you label prudence and good sense as left wing.

Your problem is the right wing has no ideas to help anyone but the people who need help the least.

They idea during Obama was to block everything.

They blocked his Supreme Court pick for months.

To say that the $3.5T bill, the most left-wing spending bill since FDR or at least LBJ is not "left wing", is very dishonest.

Your empty claims don't make prudent needed spending somehow "left wing" spending.

Have you opposed all the right wing military spending the past 2 decades?
 
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