Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

[Emily Lake]

There seem to be a number of problems with this statement. Let's try to identify just a couple of them by changing the words around.

Semantic games are fun!

Sadly, they often miss the point. So perhaps I should be very blatant about it.

In this thread, the people who have ACTUALLY faced discrimination, prejudice, and mistreatment are the ones DEFENDING the baker's right to his own conscience. The people who haven't faced those social disadvantages are the ones insisting that everyone must comply with what heterosexual white men think is the right thing to do, regardless of whether that ultimately reduces the rights of people who aren't heterosexual white men.

The most dedicated defenders of the first amendment - for EVERYONE - tend to be minorities, women, and other discriminated groups. The people most likely to see no harm in curtailing that most fundamental right are exactly those people who would be least affected by its loss.

 

[Jarhyn]

There seem to be a number of problems with this statement. Let's try to identify just a couple of them by changing the words around.

Semantic games are fun!

Sadly, they often miss the point. So perhaps I should be very blatant about it.

In this thread, the people who have ACTUALLY faced discrimination, prejudice, and mistreatment are the ones DEFENDING the baker's right to his own conscience. The people who haven't faced those social disadvantages are the ones insisting that everyone must comply with what heterosexual white men think is the right thing to do, regardless of whether that ultimately reduces the rights of people who aren't heterosexual white men.

The most dedicated defenders of the first amendment - for EVERYONE - tend to be minorities, women, and other discriminated groups. The people most likely to see no harm in curtailing that most fundamental right are exactly those people who would be least affected by its loss.

Nice to know I haven't faced discrimination, prejudice, or mistreatment!

I'm not heterosexual. I'm not even a "man".

I don't care about "the first amendment". Few reasonable rational people do. Rather, sane, rational people care about "those rights which a human ought be afforded for the betterment of us all", one of which happens to be close to, but not identical to, the first amendment.

I see no harm in curtailing the activity of outing people who are trans to the populace; rather, it is a protection from harm resulting in such violations of privacy.

 

[Emily Lake]

Nice to know I haven't faced discrimination, prejudice, or mistreatment!

What discrimination, prejudice, or mistreatment have you faced? How long have you been facing such attitudes?

I'm not heterosexual. I'm not even a "man".

Words mean things, you know. So let's make this a bit more down to earth. From your own posts, and what you yourself have volunteered as information... You are a male of the human species, who has historically had sexual relationships exclusively with females of the human species. Your current female significant other has identified as transgender and is currently presenting as a "man". If you have a long-term history of putting your penis into the vaginas of female people, and you have no history of sexual interactions with people with penises, then you are by definition heterosexual.

You can identify yourself however you want to, you can refer to yourself however you like. But you don't get to change everyone else's understanding of common language.

I don't care about "the first amendment".

I stand by my prior observation.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

There seem to be a number of problems with this statement. Let's try to identify just a couple of them by changing the words around.

Semantic games are fun!

Sadly, they often miss the point. So perhaps I should be very blatant about it.

In this thread, the people who have ACTUALLY faced discrimination, prejudice, and mistreatment are the ones DEFENDING the baker's right to his own conscience. The people who haven't faced those social disadvantages are the ones insisting that everyone must comply with what heterosexual white men think is the right thing to do, regardless of whether that ultimately reduces the rights of people who aren't heterosexual white men.

The most dedicated defenders of the first amendment - for EVERYONE - tend to be minorities, women, and other discriminated groups. The people most likely to see no harm in curtailing that most fundamental right are exactly those people who would be least affected by its loss.

Wow, what a way to not address anything I wrote. You seem to know why I wrote about Irish and Italians but quickly tried to dismiss it. That is a very sad way to open up your mind. Oh well. I can dig it. Let's just look at your words since you can't handle mine.

In this thread, the people who have ACTUALLY faced discrimination, prejudice, and mistreatment...

What a load of bullshit. Discrimination, prejudice, and mistreatment are ubiquitous and parameters and target groups of those actions are multi-dimensional beyond merely two categories you are focusing on. For example, nearly everyone here is an atheist. We've all been discriminated against due to that. We also have a diverse set of socio-economic background that you chose to ignore. You are also ignoring ethnic discrimination, even if White. I am not sure you are even aware of what races people are around here. I'm not completely sure, but somehow you are. Hmmm... And you are assuming things about sexuality not in evidence.

Tbh, I don't even know what the dividing line is here with your weird over-simplification of "defenders of the first amendment," but it's EXACTLY the kind of oversimplification of positions talked about in other thread as "free speech advocates." So, does this mean you are against the Civil Rights Act as it applied to public accommodations? Because if you want to over-simplify first amendment positions, you will have to live with that label.

 

[Emily Lake]

Wow, what a way to not address anything I wrote. You seem to know why I wrote about Irish and Italians but quickly tried to dismiss it. That is a very sad way to open up your mind. Oh well. I can dig it. Let's just look at your words since you can't handle mine.

Your substitutions weren't analogous. They attempted to turn my point into a completely different and distinct point. They didn't illuminate anything at all about my position.

In this thread, the people who have ACTUALLY faced discrimination, prejudice, and mistreatment...

What a load of bullshit. Discrimination, prejudice, and mistreatment are ubiquitous and parameters and target groups of those actions are multi-dimensional beyond merely two categories you are focusing on. For example, nearly everyone here is an atheist. We've all been discriminated against due to that.

I haven't! Not once. Of course, I was lucky to have a fairly non-religious family to start with... but largely it's because I'm not anti-christian. I'm not oppositional or aggressive about it. I don't believe in any gods, but I also don't care if other people do so long as they aren't trying to cram it down my throat.

We also have a diverse set of socio-economic background that you chose to ignore. You are also ignoring ethnic discrimination, even if White. I am not sure you are even aware of what races people are around here. I'm not completely sure, but somehow you are. Hmmm... And you are assuming things about sexuality not in evidence.

Taking people at their word...

James Madison, Angra Mainyu, and Jason Harvestdancer are all some flavor of brown, although I don't know what ethnicity (also don't particularly care, I generally appreciate their posts for the content of their character). Metaphor and TomC are both gay men.

If recollection serves... untermensche, Laughing Dog, Elixir, ZiprHead, Loren Pechtel, and yourself are all white men.

This information isn't being pulled out of my backside, it's from years of discussion and interaction with posters here, with things they've shared about themselves. I don't have any reason to doubt most of them. I don't, for instance, think that Laughing Dog is secretly a black woman pretending to be an economist. I don't have any reason to think that James Madison is actually a small asian guy pretending t be a lawyer. Sure, it's technically possible, but I don't see why I should pretend to ignore information that I've acquired over the years.

 

[TomC]

Words mean things, you know.

Not in this game they don't.

I noticed something while reading the court files. The Lawyer's petition claimed that Scardina had ordered a birthday cake. Which was advertised on The Baker's website, which specified that gender or orientation issues didn't matter.
The Baker's response claimed that the Lawyer ordered a "gender transition" cake, specifically.

It's possible that they're both right.

As was pointed out towards the beginning of the thread, many trans folks consider their "coming out as the correct gender" their new birthday. Likely, Scardina ordered a cake to celebrate her "birth as a woman". Phillips understood what was meant.

The word birthday is just as susceptible to arbitrary change, based on someone's prefered meaning, as male or female.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I don't, for instance, think that Laughing Dog is secretly a black woman pretending to be an economist.

No, I am an economist pretending to be a person!

 

[ZiprHead]

We also have a diverse set of socio-economic background that you chose to ignore. You are also ignoring ethnic discrimination, even if White. I am not sure you are even aware of what races people are around here. I'm not completely sure, but somehow you are. Hmmm... And you are assuming things about sexuality not in evidence.

Taking people at their word...

James Madison, Angra Mainyu, and Jason Harvestdancer are all some flavor of brown, although I don't know what ethnicity (also don't particularly care, I generally appreciate their posts for the content of their character). Metaphor and TomC are both gay men.

If recollection serves... untermensche, Laughing Dog, Elixir, ZiprHead, Loren Pechtel, and yourself are all white men.

This information isn't being pulled out of my backside, it's from years of discussion and interaction with posters here, with things they've shared about themselves. I don't have any reason to doubt most of them. I don't, for instance, think that Laughing Dog is secretly a black woman pretending to be an economist. I don't have any reason to think that James Madison is actually a small asian guy pretending t be a lawyer. Sure, it's technically possible, but I don't see why I should pretend to ignore information that I've acquired over the years.

This sounds very much like our ethnicity is controlling our feelings on trans people. Do you really want to go down that road?

 

[untermensche]

I don't have any reason to think that James Madison is actually a small asian guy pretending t be a lawyer.

I do wonder why a person of color would use a person who profited off the torture of black people as a moniker.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Your substitutions weren't analogous. They attempted to turn my point into a completely different and distinct point. They didn't illuminate anything at all about my position.

What a load of bullshit. Discrimination, prejudice, and mistreatment are ubiquitous and parameters and target groups of those actions are multi-dimensional beyond merely two categories you are focusing on. For example, nearly everyone here is an atheist. We've all been discriminated against due to that.

I haven't! Not once. Of course, I was lucky to have a fairly non-religious family to start with... but largely it's because I'm not anti-christian. I'm not oppositional or aggressive about it. I don't believe in any gods, but I also don't care if other people do so long as they aren't trying to cram it down my throat.

We also have a diverse set of socio-economic background that you chose to ignore. You are also ignoring ethnic discrimination, even if White. I am not sure you are even aware of what races people are around here. I'm not completely sure, but somehow you are. Hmmm... And you are assuming things about sexuality not in evidence.

Taking people at their word...

James Madison, Angra Mainyu, and Jason Harvestdancer are all some flavor of brown, although I don't know what ethnicity (also don't particularly care, I generally appreciate their posts for the content of their character). Metaphor and TomC are both gay men.

If recollection serves... untermensche, Laughing Dog, Elixir, ZiprHead, Loren Pechtel, and yourself are all white men.

This information isn't being pulled out of my backside, it's from years of discussion and interaction with posters here, with things they've shared about themselves. I don't have any reason to doubt most of them. I don't, for instance, think that Laughing Dog is secretly a black woman pretending to be an economist. I don't have any reason to think that James Madison is actually a small asian guy pretending t be a lawyer. Sure, it's technically possible, but I don't see why I should pretend to ignore information that I've acquired over the years.

And you continue to ignore socio-economic class, sexuality not on the table, and even say you don't care about ethnicity. Meanwhile, you claim you've never been discriminated against due to being an atheist. That's fascinatingly ignorant. Not to mention you are snipping people out of this and arguments that actually have substance trying to turn this into a game of who is discriminated against the most. That isn't how logical arguments work.

 

[untermensche]

Anti-LGBTQ Colorado baker loses Trans birthday cake court case

Phillips violated Colorado’s ant-discrimination law citing the fact that at issue was a ‘product’ not freedom of speech or expression

In court documents, Jones said that Phillips refusal to make the plantiff, Autumn Scardina a cake made with blue icing on the outside and pink on the inside to celebrate her gender transition on her birthday because of her transgender status but without a written message, was in violation of the law. Phillips was ordered to pay a $500 fine.

https://www.washingtonblade.com/2021/06/17/anti-lgbtq-colorado-baker-loses-trans-birthday-cake-court-case/

Seems those who said a cake with no message is no message were right here.

 

[TomC]

Seems those who said a cake with no message is no message were right here.

That nonexistent cake definitely had a message.

"I'm trans and I'm a lawyer! I can FUCK you up."

Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Seems those who said a cake with no message is no message were right here.

That nonexistent cake definitely had a message.

"I'm trans and I'm a lawyer! I can FUCK you up."

Tom

Personally, I liked the message in the summons more: quit discriminating against customers or some lawyers are going to find your low hanging fruit delicious

 

[untermensche]

Seems those who said a cake with no message is no message were right here.

That nonexistent cake definitely had a message.

"I'm trans and I'm a lawyer! I can FUCK you up."

Tom

"I can fuck you up only if you force me to."

"You have all the control."

 

[Jarhyn]

Seems those who said a cake with no message is no message were right here.

That nonexistent cake definitely had a message.

"I'm trans and I'm a lawyer! I can FUCK you up."

Tom

"I can fuck you up only if you force me to."

"You have all the control."

Well, Tom's "point of view" is that owing to the prior case the baker was in a catch/22.

I don't really think he was. As evidenced by the fact that he exited all this for a measly 500 dollars.

 

[untermensche]

"I can fuck you up only if you force me to."

"You have all the control."

Well, Tom's "point of view" is that owing to the prior case the baker was in a catch/22.

I don't really think he was. As evidenced by the fact that he exited all this for a measly 500 dollars.

You wonder if the baker is done.

People will pay for him to take this further.

 

[Jarhyn]

"I can fuck you up only if you force me to."

"You have all the control."

Well, Tom's "point of view" is that owing to the prior case the baker was in a catch/22.

I don't really think he was. As evidenced by the fact that he exited all this for a measly 500 dollars.

You wonder if the baker is done.

People will pay for him to take this further.

Thing is, it takes a rather Special sort to choose to die on such hills.

Of course, he probably made 1000x the sum from the go-fund-me or whatever, same as the lawyer.

Either way, they're going to keep doing it as much for attention at this point.

 

[Emily Lake]

I don't, for instance, think that Laughing Dog is secretly a black woman pretending to be an economist.

No, I am an economist pretending to be a person!

 

[Emily Lake]

Taking people at their word...

James Madison, Angra Mainyu, and Jason Harvestdancer are all some flavor of brown, although I don't know what ethnicity (also don't particularly care, I generally appreciate their posts for the content of their character). Metaphor and TomC are both gay men.

If recollection serves... untermensche, Laughing Dog, Elixir, ZiprHead, Loren Pechtel, and yourself are all white men.

This information isn't being pulled out of my backside, it's from years of discussion and interaction with posters here, with things they've shared about themselves. I don't have any reason to doubt most of them. I don't, for instance, think that Laughing Dog is secretly a black woman pretending to be an economist. I don't have any reason to think that James Madison is actually a small asian guy pretending t be a lawyer. Sure, it's technically possible, but I don't see why I should pretend to ignore information that I've acquired over the years.

This sounds very much like our ethnicity is controlling our feelings on trans people. Do you really want to go down that road?

I'm at a loss to see how you got from

"People who have directly experienced discrimination and oppression tend to be the most vocal supporters of the first amendment; people who really don't face discrimination are less likely to be bothered by infringements to freedom of speech, belief, and conscience, because that infringement is less likely to affect them"

to

"Feelings about trans people are racial in nature"

 

[Emily Lake]

I don't have any reason to think that James Madison is actually a small asian guy pretending t be a lawyer.

I do wonder why a person of color would use a person who profited off the torture of black people as a moniker.

Speculating on behalf of someone else... I would suspect it's because JM is an intelligent person capable of understanding that the historical figure's behavior toward minorities was the norm for that time period, and that Madison contributed a huge amount of benefit to society and to our view of rights and law *despite* owning slaves.