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Should bakers be forced to make gender transition celebration cakes?

I applied your reasoning in a consistent manner. You did not fix anything, but it does confirm what I suspect - you really do not think cake is art.
That was me being polite. If you had any sense you'd have accepted the gentle remonstration and dropped the matter. But like an idiot you're doubling down. So this time I will not be polite.

What you wrote in post #133 was a strawman. You deliberately misrepresented my position. And then you did it again in post #138. What you wrote was unethical. If you cannot conduct yourself in a civilized manner then you do not deserve to be included in adult conversations. Stop behaving like a child. You should be ashamed of yourself.
You wrote in post #134
And the cake in question is an artwork; a cup of coffee at Woolworth's lunch counter is not an artwork. Art is protected under the First Amendment.
I wrote "under your reasoning" which means the same as "applying your reasoning" I did not say you said it. So, it is a not as straw man. If you do not like the implications of your reasoning, then state why or re-examine your argument instead of posting like a petulant jackass or shove your accusations up one of your crevices.

This is the 2nd post where you have made asinine accusations against me which makes your advice seem much more hypocritical than helpful.
 
To really make the case it should have been handled differently:

Have someone else go order the exact same cake but with a different explanation, or no explanation.

Then go order it specifically to celebrate transition.

If the first order works and the second doesn't the discrimination is much more clearly shown.

It wouldn't show anything of the kind.

It is illegal for Phillips to refuse to serve a trans customer on the basis of their trans status.

It is not illegal (as far as I know) to refuse to make and sell a cake celebrating a gender transition.

No--to refuse the cake based on what it's going to be used for is discrimination.

So, you believe a baker should be forced to bake a cake for a bris?
 
No--to refuse the cake based on what it's going to be used for is discrimination.

So, you believe a baker should be forced to bake a cake for a bris?

Not all bakers are Christian, so many of them won't feel forced at all. My question is what religious beliefs is the refusal based on? How does one prove it's a religious belief and not just an excuse for bigotry? If the Baker is a Christian they'll have a hard time finding scripture to support their claim because there will be 20 other verses in the same book to the contrary.
 
No--to refuse the cake based on what it's going to be used for is discrimination.

So, you believe a baker should be forced to bake a cake for a bris?

Not all bakers are Christian, so many of them won't feel forced at all. My question is what religious beliefs is the refusal based on? How does one prove it's a religious belief and not just an excuse for bigotry? If the Baker is a Christian they'll have a hard time finding scripture to support their claim because there will be 20 other verses in the same book to the contrary.

One needn't be Christian to find
In a practice that takes place during a ceremony known as the bris, a circumcision practitioner, or mohel, removes the foreskin from the baby's penis, and with his mouth sucks the blood from the incision to cleanse the wound.
pretty gross. Not something I'd like to "celebrate", nothing to do with my religious beliefs(or lack thereof).
Tom
 
Metaphor isn't lying; the two of you are merely applying contrary definitions of "compel". In your usage, the state wouldn't be compelling Phillips to make the cake because he'd be allowed the alternative of no longer being permitted to sell cakes to the public. In Metaphor's usage, being threatened with loss of state permission to do business counts as being compelled. He was not attempting to misrepresent your position; he appears to have simply not noticed you use a different definition of "compel" from his. Now shake hands and be friends again.

That is not my understanding of where the disagreement lies (though my definition of 'compel' is as you say).

My understanding of the disagreement is that KeepTalking believes that there is a material difference between baking a cake with a specific colour combination that was explicated to symbolise gender transition, and baking a cake with the words 'happy gender transition celebration' on top. KeepTalking believes making the former is not a baker expressing support for gender transition, whereas the latter is. KeepTalking has been explicit that he would not want a baker to be forced to bake the latter cake (with the writing) because it would be compelling him to express a viewpoint. But I consider the former cake to also be compelling the baker to express a viewpoint. It's simply more abstract and less obvious to outsiders what that message is (unlike words written in English), but it is certainly not a mystery what it means. Scardina made it explicit.
 
Phillips is discriminating against a viewpoint, not against a type of person.
I disagree. I believe that Phillips is discriminating against a type of person, and is doing a very poor job of trying to cover that up.
I don't know why you believe that. You haven't produced any evidence for it. And it's not clear that you care enough about the distinction for your opinion on that technicality to remain uncontaminated by your disapproval of Phillips' unwillingness to help celebrate transitioning.

And the cake in question is an artwork; a cup of coffee at Woolworth's lunch counter is not an artwork.

A cake is not artwork. A cake is food.
Jack_Deco_1.jpg

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No one decorates their home with cake.
It's called the "Masterpiece Cakeshop", for crying out loud! You don't go there because you want food. If you want a cake that isn't an artwork you can get one a ton cheaper at a Safeway.

This is a simple two color cake with no symbolism other than a perception of what those two colors mean.
It's not a "perception". The customer told him what the symbolism was, in the customer's language, same as if the customer had told him he wanted some innocuous-sounding words because they were actually an ethnic slur in the customer's language.

Are you contending that if the protestors at the Woolworths lunch counter had been attempting to purchase cake instead of coffee, then it would have someone been just fine for them to be refused service,
Oh, for the love of god! Are you even trying to make sensible arguments? I said "And the cake in question is an artwork". I didn't say, "All cake is artwork because it's cake." Woolworths amounted to an assembly line; it employed cooks in the food business. Phillips is an artist in the art business. The fact that he specializes in edible party decorations rather than house decorations no more makes him a non-artist than the fact that Jorn Utzon specialized in buildings rather than house decorations made him a non-artist. In contrast, if the Woolworths lunch counter sold cake it was undoubtedly as generic as a Safeway cake.

And if that distinction is too subtle a nuance for you to accept, the SCOTUS does not share your disability. There's a line of cases where they upheld artists' rights against one or another state claiming something wasn't art.

And all that's on top of the fact that Woolworths was discriminating against a type of person, not a viewpoint.

and abused by the other customers?
Okay, now you've just gone off the deep end.

Art is protected under the First Amendment. That's the Constitution; all the laws against discriminating in private business are merely statutes, which means they rank lower. So if this ever makes it to the Supreme Court, Scardina has little chance of winning.

This isn't art, and is not being sold as such. It is a cake that is being sold to be eaten, it is food. It does not even have any artwork on it, it is simply two colors, like damn near any cake ever made to be eaten.
It's a custom cake, ordered from an artist. It's not even off-the-shelf. If you hired a professional artist to paint a mural for you, then even if what you requested was a simple circle on a uniform background you're going to lose if you later argue in court that it isn't art.

Bakeries bake and sell cakes to be eaten. Art galleries produce art to be sold.
If Scardina takes that argument to the SCOTUS it will be rejected.

Even if this was art, if this strange Art Gallery/ Bakery was to refuse to sell same "artistically designed two color cake to a transgender that they would have sold to a cisgender, then they would be engaging in illegal discrimination as well and should be forced to stop doing so, or go out of business.
If she takes that argument to the SCOTUS she'll need to produce concrete evidence that Phillips isn't discriminating against a viewpoint, but against a type of person. If she says, "I believe that Phillips is discriminating against a type of person, and is doing a very poor job of trying to cover that up.", that won't do the job.
 
Maybe people who want to make art cakes that express their opinions shouldn't call their store a cake shop, but rather an "ephemeral art gallery".
 
Not all bakers are Christian, so many of them won't feel forced at all. My question is what religious beliefs is the refusal based on? How does one prove it's a religious belief and not just an excuse for bigotry? If the Baker is a Christian they'll have a hard time finding scripture to support their claim because there will be 20 other verses in the same book to the contrary.

One needn't be Christian to find
In a practice that takes place during a ceremony known as the bris, a circumcision practitioner, or mohel, removes the foreskin from the baby's penis, and with his mouth sucks the blood from the incision to cleanse the wound.
pretty gross. Not something I'd like to "celebrate", nothing to do with my religious beliefs(or lack thereof).
Tom

No one is asking the Baker to celebrate. They are asking for the cake.
 
Maybe people who want to make art cakes that express their opinions shouldn't call their store a cake shop, but rather an "ephemeral art gallery".

Could Scardina's request meet that standard of honesty and disclosure? Did she really want a cake at all?
I don't think so, I think she lied about that part to get what she really wants, a performance art piece she'll get paid for doing.
Tom
 
Not all bakers are Christian, so many of them won't feel forced at all.

I'm not Christian and that wouldn't be my objection. My objection would be that mutilating the genitals of a baby is a human rights violation and is not something I would want to express support for, or even support indirectly if I knew about it (like catering for one).

I chose bris because even though plenty of Christians and Muslims and atheists also mutilate the genitals of baby boys, I don't believe they celebrate it and wouldn't want a cake for the occasion.

My question is what religious beliefs is the refusal based on? How does one prove it's a religious belief and not just an excuse for bigotry? If the Baker is a Christian they'll have a hard time finding scripture to support their claim because there will be 20 other verses in the same book to the contrary.

Well, there's no scripture condemning Jews from performing a bris, though I believe there is a New Testament book (probably Acts) that specifies that males newly-converted to Christianity did not need to get their genitals mutilated.

So, my objection is not a religious objection; it's a "human being who has not lost his mind and sense of moral decency" objection.
 
Bottom line is bigotry of this type is ignorance and a moral society should not put up with it.

But a moral society would not put up with massive child abuse in the form of religious indoctrination either.
 
Maybe people who want to make art cakes that express their opinions shouldn't call their store a cake shop, but rather an "ephemeral art gallery".

Now you want to dictate what people can call their shops, too?
 
One needn't be Christian to find
pretty gross. Not something I'd like to "celebrate", nothing to do with my religious beliefs(or lack thereof).
Tom

No one is asking the Baker to celebrate. They are asking for the cake.

And if somebody said "I don't think that's something to celebrate and I'm not selling a cake to you or anybody, if it is intended for a bris", do you think they should be compelled by the State to sell it anyway?
 
I wrote "under your reasoning" which means the same as "applying your reasoning" I did not say you said it. So, it is a not as straw man.
So you'll even put words in your own mouth. You wrote "under #Bomb20's interpretation", knowing perfectly well that's not how I'd interpret it.

If you do not like the implications of your reasoning
Get stuffed. You departed from my reasoning from your very first words, "If cake is art", knowing perfectly well that I'd said "the cake in question is an artwork", not "cake is art".
 
One needn't be Christian to find
pretty gross. Not something I'd like to "celebrate", nothing to do with my religious beliefs(or lack thereof).
Tom

No one is asking the Baker to celebrate. They are asking for the cake.

And if somebody said "I don't think that's something to celebrate and I'm not selling a cake to you or anybody, if it is intended for a bris", do you think they should be compelled by the State to sell it anyway?

I would say fuck you and your worthless caring about my intentions.

I am not paying you to care about anything except the quality of the cake.

I would also say that forcing somebody to bake you a cake is a way to get a bad tasting cake.
 
Maybe people who want to make art cakes that express their opinions shouldn't call their store a cake shop, but rather an "ephemeral art gallery".

Could Scardina's request meet that standard of honesty and disclosure?
Phillips did. When you name your store "Masterpiece" Cakeshop you aren't exactly being secretive about what a talented artist you think you are. You can accuse the guy of arrogance, fair enough, but nondisclosure, no.
 
Not all bakers are Christian, so many of them won't feel forced at all.

I'm not Christian and that wouldn't be my objection. My objection would be that mutilating the genitals of a baby is a human rights violation and is not something I would want to express support for, or even support indirectly if I knew about it (like catering for one).

I chose bris because even though plenty of Christians and Muslims and atheists also mutilate the genitals of baby boys, I don't believe they celebrate it and wouldn't want a cake for the occasion.

My question is what religious beliefs is the refusal based on? How does one prove it's a religious belief and not just an excuse for bigotry? If the Baker is a Christian they'll have a hard time finding scripture to support their claim because there will be 20 other verses in the same book to the contrary.

Well, there's no scripture condemning Jews from performing a bris, though I believe there is a New Testament book (probably Acts) that specifies that males newly-converted to Christianity did not need to get their genitals mutilated.

So, my objection is not a religious objection; it's a "human being who has not lost his mind and sense of moral decency" objection.

That's your take and your take is a private one of which you are not offering a service to the public. While I don't agree with or celebrate bris it's not my place (unless the law provides) for me to deny a service I'm providing to the general public because I don't like what my services are being used for. For example, I DJ parties on the side. I was asked to DJ at a house that was a friend of one of my neighbors. The guy had a confederate flag flying and other paraphernalia I didn't agree with when I went to assess the site. I wasn't surprised because that neighbor (who passed away) had one too. Ultimately they all had a blast and talked about music and the stupid shit they did when kids. They knew I wasn't excited about that confederate shit but it did not get in the way of my offering my service and getting paid $500 for 6 hours of dumbfuckery. If I was really bent out of shape about it I could donate $100 to the black panthers or some shit.
 
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