Should religiously segregated schools be banned?

[Colonel Sanders]

The argumentation by analogy coming out of you fellas is the most scatter-brained stuff I have ever heard. First Bip was comparing religion to sport now you are comparing children to frozen vegetables!

Ugh. The analogy was to your use of the word "segregation." You're using it improperly. You should be using the word "separation." It's more accurate and doesn't carry the same connotation as "segregation." Don't blame us for your thin language skills.

The evidence is all around you in the problems that religious segregation in general causes in the Northern Ireland, the middle east to take 2 obvious examples.

Then why in the hell didn't you talk specifically about Northern Ireland or somewhere in the ME? How is anyone supposed to know what or where you're talking about? Most people here are from the U.S. Those that aren't will almost invariably state that they're talking about something outside the U.S. because they understand the demographic here. And when Americans engage in a thread containing a topic about a non-U.S. country, they will usually qualify their comments with, "Here in the U.S. ..." or something that allows the OP and others to know what their point of reference is.

What a bunch of cobblers. You would insist that slavery be kept in place because people who discussed it in the 19th century and came to the conclusion (just by discussion) that it was maybe not the best way to organise society did not present any successful court cases brought by black slaves!

Oh, stop making shit up. Talk about limp analogies.

What we are doing here is discussing by argumentation the merits of religiously segregated education.

No, that's not what we're talking about. In your OP you proposed what any reasonable person, or any person within the spectrum of reasonable would identify as oppressive in a free country. And that's what makes your sudden shift to a geographical location even more bizarre. We've been talking about the free exercise rights of free countries and then suddenly you bring up Northern Ireland and the ME. What the fuck is that about?

Well at least I am discussing it and you are sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting that you don't want to discuss it you want to see court case evidence. What can't you give a single reason in support of segregated education? You have only offered vague complaints about 'freedom' but nothing specifically about segregation of children. What is good about it?

Legal holdings are often a direct and authoritative reflection of society's values. HERE IN THE U.S., one must prove damages to win a case, and in order to prove damages they have to prove every single element of their charge, along with providing a remedy for those damages. What you're talking about here would fall under due process or equal protection violation under the U.S. Constitution. So what you would have to find would be a case where a class of persons were damaged by private religious institutions and what the subsequent remedy was. Good luck with that. I'd look it up for you, but you're the one making the claim so it's up to you to provide evidence of that claim.

I'll also suggest you find out what constitutes child abuse because your position seems to support that accusation.

It is not up to individuals to make their own rules according to their religious beliefs in preference to the democratically agreed rules of the state.

HERE IN THE U.S. it is indeed up to the individual to decide what they wish to believe and how to practice those beliefs. It is also well-established that parents have the right to place their children in a qualified educational institution that despite being private, must adhere to the same state academic standards as public schools.
THOSE ARE THE "DEMOCRATICALLY AGREED UPON" RULES OF THE STATE.

The right to keep children segregated so that they grow up full of fear and distrust of other groups of children is 'the most important right you have' ?

Can you read? That sound you heard little while ago? It was the point zipping past your head at a hundred miles an hour.

I am not here to prove. I am here to argue.

Oh Jesus. You better provide proof of something or you're not a lot better than an angry, old drunk relative at a painfully long family reunion.
Back up your bullshit with something to show it isn't bullshit.

 

[mojorising]

The analogy was to your use of the word "segregation." You're using it improperly. You should be using the word "separation." It's more accurate and doesn't carry the same connotation as "segregation." Don't blame us for your thin language skills.

Segregation is the appropriate word here. Separation is a vague and broad term which can apply to any situation when 2 things are not together. Segregation specifically refers to separation of populations of humans according to some perceived differentiating feature of those groups. Segregation is exactly the right word as you very well know. You just don't like it because it highlights how wrong the practice of religious segregation of school children is.

No, that's not what we're talking about. In your OP you proposed what any reasonable person, or any person within the spectrum of reasonable would identify as oppressive in a free country.

OK lets take the legalistics out of it and not use the (correct) word segregation just to make you happy.

Do you think it is good idea to keep children separated by religion while they are at school?

Or do you think it is a bad idea?

What are the pros and cons as you see them?

I see the cons as being:-

1. Children should not be separated by religion during their school years because they grow up distrusting and fearing other children due to unfamiliarity.
2. Religious preaching is not appropriate in an educational establishment since schools are about learning facts and skills
3. Religion gets false kudos by being associated with education. It appears as if religious preaching is educational, which it is not.
4. We currently have big problems with the integration of immigrant populations in the west (particularly Muslim populations). They should attend the same secular schools as the rest of the population so that the cycle of non-integration is broken down.
5. We need to lead them by example by not schooling our own children in religiously segregated schools.
5. Very young school age amateur jihadists have been recruited on the internet in recent years. If these children had grown up beside other westerners they would know that we are all just human with the same passions and fears and aspirations and they would be less likely to be led astray by these jihad recruits.

The pros I see are:-

........... none

What are the pros and cons as you see them?

Don't come back with an argument about 'freedom' of choice. It is a meaningless and vapid argument that just means you are trying to avoid addressing the discussion. 'Freedom of choice' can be used to dress any old nonsense up as being 'reasonable' just because it is your 'freedom' to do it that is at stake. Address the specifics of the argument relating to religious segregation in schools and stop trying to hide behind this 'freedom of choice' waffle.

 

[Brian63]

Speaking as someone who does not hold a committed position either way on this issue, but is open to taking one if one makes the most sense, I just want to let everyone know that we noncommitted tend to agree with whomever makes the better insults while arguing, not who makes the better arguments. So can everyone posting in this debate here make sure to make it very personal and very insulting towards each other, and amp it up a couple notches more on that level? Much appreciated.

Thanks,

Brian

P.S. Oh wait, no, please go the other way and drop all the insults, and stay more on the actual topic. Thanks.

 

[mojorising]

I just want to let everyone know that we noncommitted tend to agree with whomever makes the better insults while arguing

whoever not whomever you idiot!!!!!

....

 

[Colonel Sanders]

Segregation is the appropriate word here. Separation is a vague and broad term which can apply to any situation when 2 things are not together. Segregation specifically refers to separation of populations of humans according to some perceived differentiating feature of those groups. Segregation is exactly the right word as you very well know. You just don't like it because it highlights how wrong the practice of religious segregation of school children is.

No, that's not what we're talking about. In your OP you proposed what any reasonable person, or any person within the spectrum of reasonable would identify as oppressive in a free country.

OK lets take the legalistics out of it and not use the (correct) word segregation just to make you happy.

Do you think it is good idea to keep children separated by religion while they are at school?

Or do you think it is a bad idea?

What are the pros and cons as you see them?

I see the cons as being:-

1. Children should not be separated by religion during their school years because they grow up distrusting and fearing other children due to unfamiliarity.
2. Religious preaching is not appropriate in an educational establishment since schools are about learning facts and skills
3. Religion gets false kudos by being associated with education. It appears as if religious preaching is educational, which it is not.
4. We currently have big problems with the integration of immigrant populations in the west (particularly Muslim populations). They should attend the same secular schools as the rest of the population so that the cycle of non-integration is broken down.
5. We need to lead them by example by not schooling our own children in religiously segregated schools.
5. Very young school age amateur jihadists have been recruited on the internet in recent years. If these children had grown up beside other westerners they would know that we are all just human with the same passions and fears and aspirations and they would be less likely to be led astray by these jihad recruits.

The pros I see are:-

........... none

What are the pros and cons as you see them?

Don't come back with an argument about 'freedom' of choice. It is a meaningless and vapid argument that just means you are trying to avoid addressing the discussion. 'Freedom of choice' can be used to dress any old nonsense up as being 'reasonable' just because it is your 'freedom' to do it that is at stake. Address the specifics of the argument relating to religious segregation in schools and stop trying to hide behind this 'freedom of choice' waffle.

So, in other words, don't point out things that make your point of view on this wrong.

I will address your numbered points:

1. Children should not be separated by religion during their school years because they grow up distrusting and fearing other children due to unfamiliarity.

First, tribalism isn't unique to religion. It is one of the great examples of modern tribalism, but it is certainly not the only one. Race is another as is culture as is family and even business competitors display strong elements of tribalism. Then there's sports fans, which may be one of the healthiest exercises in tribalism there is. Us vs. Them is a pervasive human characteristic. Second, you make the sweeping generalization that kids who go to private schools fear and distrust other children. Now, this is true, but not for the reason you're giving. When a kid has to move from one school to another they experience a tremendous amount of fear exactly because they're unfamiliar. Take religion out of that equation and it's exactly the same thing. In other words, it's true whether or not religion is involved.

2. Religious preaching is not appropriate in an educational establishment since schools are about learning facts and skills

It has already been pointed out to you by myself and others that private religious schools teach the same subjects and must adhere to the same academic standards as public schools. The difference is that there is a religious component involved, such as an extra class on the Bible or whatever. That being the case, your concern about learning "facts and skills" should be assuaged.

3. Religion gets false kudos by being associated with education. It appears as if religious preaching is educational, which it is not.

Many religious schools are known for their more rigorous academics and because of that are considered a better barometer of how a kid will do in college, rather than one from a given public school. Otherwise, see #2.

4. We currently have big problems with the integration of immigrant populations in the west (particularly Muslim populations). They should attend the same secular schools as the rest of the population so that the cycle of non-integration is broken down.

I have no affinity for Islam. I think it's a pig's ass of a religion. But as far as I know, Muslim schools are not that prevalent in the U.S. I'm sure they exist, but does that mean they teach terrorism? I will readily agree that there is a certain problem with assimilation when the U.S. is not their native land, but the alternative is to suppress their substantive rights. And that's not going to happen. More importantly, the vast, vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists. They are well assimilated and practice their beliefs the same way everyone else does.

5. We need to lead them by example by not schooling our own children in religiously segregated schools.

You don't have to put your kid in a private school if you don't want to. But you could if you wanted. Or you could home school your kid, or find some other alternative. My youngest daughter gets tremendous standardized test scores--literally the highest in her class. But she was getting mediocre grades because the curriculum bored her and the schedule just doesn't fit her. So we found a different school to put her in. The point is that if I'm allowed the freedom to find an appropriate place to educate my child, then I cannot possibly deny that right to another unless what that other person is doing is provably harmful to their child. And there is no evidence of that with respect to private religious schools.

6. Very young school age amateur jihadists have been recruited on the internet in recent years. If these children had grown up beside other westerners they would know that we are all just human with the same passions and fears and aspirations and they would be less likely to be led astray by these jihad recruits.

Now, I really don't understand this^. A quick Google search says there are about 3.3 million Muslims in the U.S. Of those, let's assume that a full third are under 18. That's a pretty generous supposition. Anyway, that's 1.1 million kids. How many have been recruited by ISIS? Let's call it a thousand, even though that's way more than the actual number. The math says that that's 0.0009%. And frankly, the real number is far likely closer to 100 than 1,000, which is 0.000009%. Now throw in all the adults capable of recruitment and the percentage shrinks even more.

So you wish the government to deny Constitutionally guaranteed rights to millions based on a hypothetical fraction of some ten thousandth of one percent of 3.3 million people recruited by ISIS--when not a single ISIS recruit has been proven to have committed any act of terrorism in the U.S.?

You're argument may hold sway in Europe down the line because Europe's made it's own bed to shit in. But that's a political topic.

 

[jonJ]

Now, I really don't understand this^. A quick Google search says there are about 3.3 million Muslims in the U.S. Of those, let's assume that a full third are under 18. That's a pretty generous supposition. Anyway, that's 1.1 million kids. How many have been recruited by ISIS? Let's call it a thousand, even though that's way more than the actual number. The math says that that's 0.0009%. And frankly, the real number is far likely closer to 100 than 1,000, which is 0.000009%. Now throw in all the adults capable of recruitment and the percentage shrinks even more.

According to me that's .09% and .009%. You may want to check your maths with your daughter.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

Now, I really don't understand this^. A quick Google search says there are about 3.3 million Muslims in the U.S. Of those, let's assume that a full third are under 18. That's a pretty generous supposition. Anyway, that's 1.1 million kids. How many have been recruited by ISIS? Let's call it a thousand, even though that's way more than the actual number. The math says that that's 0.0009%. And frankly, the real number is far likely closer to 100 than 1,000, which is 0.000009%. Now throw in all the adults capable of recruitment and the percentage shrinks even more.

According to me that's .09% and .009%. You may want to check your maths with your daughter.

No, maybe you should. 1,000 divided by 1,100,000 = 0.00090909.

When you're going to be a smartass about math, you really need to get it right.

Calculators are your friend.

 

[beero1000]

According to me that's .09% and .009%. You may want to check your maths with your daughter.

No, maybe you should. 1,000 divided by 1,100,000 = 0.00090909.

When you're going to be a smartass about math, you really need to get it right.

Calculators are your friend.

Awkward...

 

[Juma]

According to me that's .09% and .009%. You may want to check your maths with your daughter.

No, maybe you should. 1,000 divided by 1,100,000 = 0.00090909.

When you're going to be a smartass about math, you really need to get it right.

Calculators are your friend.

And 0.0009 per each = 0.09 per hundred = 0.09%

 

[mojorising]

When a kid has to move from one school to another they experience a tremendous amount of fear exactly because they're unfamiliar. Take religion out of that equation and it's exactly the same thing. In other words, it's true whether or not religion is involved.

Your argument is circular and entirely devoid of logic.

If the schools were not segregated in the first place then the movement from one school to another would be no more traumatic than if schools were segregated. In fact it makes moving schools more difficult since you have to find a spot at a 'religious' school instead of any school.

This argument works just as well (even better) for racial segregation of schools or any kind of segregation. It will be less traumatic for a child when they have to move schools if they are among their own kind.

Weakest argument I have ever heard!

The difference is that there is a religious component involved, such as an extra class on the Bible or whatever. That being the case, your concern about learning "facts and skills" should be assuaged.

You have not addressed the point. I say it is wrong to preach religion in a educational environment. You are saying its mostly education just a bit of religion thrown in. Well the 'bit' is the 'bit' that is wrong.

Why do you think religion should be preached in schools? It is not education. It belongs in a separate environment e.g. Sunday school or whatever.

Many religious schools are known for their more rigorous academics and because of that are considered a better barometer of how a kid will do in college, rather than one from a given public school.

You have not addressed the point about false kudos. You are just avoiding it and coming back with a different point.

But I will address that point anyway. It may be the case that some religious schools have good academic results. Do you think that is because they are religious? Do you think there is some kind of divine intervention going on the in the neurons of kids who go to religious schools? Cobblers - it is obviously because those private schools have better funding and so have lower class numbers and better qualified teachers.

That is an argument for better funding for schools not religion in schools.

If you don't agree then explain why it is that religion directly improves kids academic results?

But as far as I know, Muslim schools are not that prevalent in the U.S. I'm sure they exist, but does that mean they teach terrorism?

But the argument is about whether they should exist at all. Do you think Muslims should go to separate Muslim schools?

You don't have to put your kid in a private school if you don't want to. But you could if you wanted.

If we are to lead by example then we need to school all our kids together with no religious segregation. If a percentage of our kids are segregated then that is all the excuse the Muslims need to pursue their culturally separatist agenda.

And frankly, the real number is far likely closer to 100 than 1,000, which is 0.000009%. Now throw in all the adults capable of recruitment and the percentage shrinks even more.

It only takes a small number to create a big problem when it comes to Jihadism. Do you think Muslims should have separate schools or should they be schooled in secular schools?


You have still not given me one single reason why segregation of schoolchildren is a good idea and why you support it. The only line of argument you have come back with is that some religious schools have good results. But you know that this nothing to do with religion. It is to do with funding and facilities at these schools.

Stop running away from the argument and give me one reason why schools should be segregated by religion - and don't say 'freedom of choice' that is not a line of argument. It is avoiding the argument.

 

[Colonel Sanders]

Stop running away from the argument and give me one reason why schools should be segregated by religion - and don't say 'freedom of choice' that is not a line of argument. It is avoiding the argument.

I'm done with you. If you have no respect for the right of others to believe differently than you, and if you think that human freedom isn't important, well then, you're just fucked.

 

[Juma]

Stop running away from the argument and give me one reason why schools should be segregated by religion - and don't say 'freedom of choice' that is not a line of argument. It is avoiding the argument.

I'm done with you. If you have no respect for the right of others to believe differently than you, and if you think that human freedom isn't important, well then, you're just fucked.

Believe differently? You mean teach lies?