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Should white people perform the blues?

It doesn't do any good to presume things about a individual's life based on their skin colour, such as whether or not they meet one criteria for a blues musician.

I doubt that when Perspicuo made that comment about colour-blindness, I doubt he also meant it to mean that Americans should be oblivious to social problems involving race.

Neither Perspicuo nor anyone else using the term in a positive manner mean what Athena and her pseudo-intellectual sources twist it to mean. The anti color-blind argument is just a way for the "I'm a victim" culture to ensure that blackness is equated with victimization and thus with the need for reparations.
Reparations?
They do not want equal treatment, they want special favors to make up for the past victimization that they want everyone to assume about them based upon skin color.
And what else do I, I mean, "they" think, oh mighty Kreskin?
IOW, they are advocating racism
Define please.
and want people to infer a individual's identity, perspective, and past based upon skin color, they just want the outcome of that racism to benefit rather than harm them.
Are you saying that racism harms black people and now black people want revenge?
What color-blind actually means is not assuming things about individual people based upon their skin color, IOW, not being a racist.
A word which you have yet to define but do go on.
The anti color-blind argument is big among proponents of the more blatantly racist forms of affirmative-action,
Reparations AND AA? Go man Go!
because it serves to justify the fact that such policies treat people differently and unequally based upon skin color rather than relevant attributes of the individual persons.
Racism is a group dynamic that effects people within groups individually and collectively. And pretending you don't see race doesn't solve the problem.
 
Neither Perspicuo nor anyone else using the term in a positive manner mean what Athena and her pseudo-intellectual sources twist it to mean. The anti color-blind argument is just a way for the "I'm a victim" culture to ensure that blackness is equated with victimization and thus with the need for reparations.
Reparations?

Yes, reparations: "the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged." Most affirmative action policies are a form of reparations.

They do not want equal treatment, they want special favors to make up for the past victimization that they want everyone to assume about them based upon skin color.
And what else do I, I mean, "they" think, oh mighty Kreskin?

First, while dishonest rhetorical games are you M.O., your efforts to make my "they" into some racist reference to blacks in general isn't going to fly. You quoted other people and agreed with them, you and those others you quoted are the only "they" I was referring to. I wouldn't assume that black people all agree with such blatantly racist nonsense that you espouse.

Second, I don't need ESP to know what you mean, I actually have the capacity for logical reasoning, so I can identify the assumptions that are logically inherent in what you say, and the policy-related contexts in which the anti color-blind arguments are typically put forth. It is fortunate that I have such a capacity, so I don't need to rely on you to be honest about admitting to what your agenda is. We go through this exchange in almost every interaction where you say something, I point out the inherent logical assumptions of what you say and then you pretend they I am claiming psychic abilities.

IOW, they are advocating racism
Define please.

I did define it in the same sentence. The bolded part below meets any valid definition of racism and it accurately summarizes the argument you quoted in which people should see and use a person's skin color so they would know their history and identity.

and want people to infer a individual's identity, perspective, and past based upon skin color, they just want the outcome of that racism to benefit rather than harm them.
Are you saying that racism harms black people and now black people want revenge?

Racism harms everyone, and using a person's skin color to draw inferences about them as an individual is racism. Also, I am not referring to what black people think or do, because plenty of black people don't buy the pseudo-intellectual view you are selling. I am referring to people who make the sort of anti-color blind that you quoted. This is the "they" who are seeking to retain and promote racist assumptions based upon skin color as a means to impart the benefits of being labeled a victim.

What color-blind actually means is not assuming things about individual people based upon their skin color, IOW, not being a racist.
A word which you have yet to define but do go on.

I have defined it twice now. You simply fail to grasp the clear logical implications of linguistic expressions, both in what others say and what you say yourself.

The anti color-blind argument is big among proponents of the more blatantly racist forms of affirmative-action,
Reparations AND AA? Go man Go!

No, not "AND" because AA is a form of reparations and the exact same anti-color blind arguments are typically put forth when defending AA policies and the fact that they use skin color as a basis for inference about applicants.


because it serves to justify the fact that such policies treat people differently and unequally based upon skin color rather than relevant attributes of the individual persons.
Racism is a group dynamic that effects people within groups individually and collectively. And pretending you don't see race doesn't solve the problem.

Racism is also a psychological process in which race is used to infer characteristics about individual persons, which is precisely what the argument you quoted is advocating. In fact, such a quote could easily come from a white supremacist, with the only difference being exactly what it is they infer about a black person's history and identity from their skin color.
 
Reparations?

Yes, reparations: "the making of amends for a wrong one has done, by paying money to or otherwise helping those who have been wronged." Most affirmative action policies are a form of reparations.

They do not want equal treatment, they want special favors to make up for the past victimization that they want everyone to assume about them based upon skin color.
And what else do I, I mean, "they" think, oh mighty Kreskin?

First, while dishonest rhetorical games are you M.O., your efforts to make my "they" into some racist reference to blacks in general isn't going to fly. You quoted other people and agreed with them, you and those others you quoted are the only "they" I was referring to. I wouldn't assume that black people all agree with such blatantly racist nonsense that you espouse.

Second, I don't need ESP to know what you mean, I actually have the capacity for logical reasoning, so I can identify the assumptions that are logically inherent in what you say, and the policy-related contexts in which the anti color-blind arguments are typically put forth. It is fortunate that I have such a capacity, so I don't need to rely on you to be honest about admitting to what your agenda is. We go through this exchange in almost every interaction where you say something, I point out the inherent logical assumptions of what you say and then you pretend they I am claiming psychic abilities.

IOW, they are advocating racism
Define please.

I did define it in the same sentence. The bolded part below meets any valid definition of racism and it accurately summarizes the argument you quoted in which people should see and use a person's skin color so they would know their history and identity.

and want people to infer a individual's identity, perspective, and past based upon skin color, they just want the outcome of that racism to benefit rather than harm them.
Are you saying that racism harms black people and now black people want revenge?

Racism harms everyone, and using a person's skin color to draw inferences about them as an individual is racism. Also, I am not referring to what black people think or do, because plenty of black people don't buy the pseudo-intellectual view you are selling. I am referring to people who make the sort of anti-color blind that you quoted. This is the "they" who are seeking to retain and promote racist assumptions based upon skin color as a means to impart the benefits of being labeled a victim.

What color-blind actually means is not assuming things about individual people based upon their skin color, IOW, not being a racist.
A word which you have yet to define but do go on.

I have defined it twice now. You simply fail to grasp the clear logical implications of linguistic expressions, both in what others say and what you say yourself.

The anti color-blind argument is big among proponents of the more blatantly racist forms of affirmative-action,
Reparations AND AA? Go man Go!

No, not "AND" because AA is a form of reparations and the exact same anti-color blind arguments are typically put forth when defending AA policies and the fact that they use skin color as a basis for inference about applicants.


because it serves to justify the fact that such policies treat people differently and unequally based upon skin color rather than relevant attributes of the individual persons.
Racism is a group dynamic that effects people within groups individually and collectively. And pretending you don't see race doesn't solve the problem.

Racism is also a psychological process in which race is used to infer characteristics about individual persons, which is precisely what the argument you quoted is advocating. In fact, such a quote could easily come from a white supremacist, with the only difference being exactly what it is they infer about a black person's history and identity from their skin color.

How about we split this off and give it its own thread instead of taking over this one?
 
Colour-blind doesn't mean not seeing someone's colour, it means not having their colour influence your opinion of them in any way.

That sounds all well and good, even noble, but that is not how colorblindness works. Consider

White people, who are unlikely to experience disadvantages due to race, can effectively ignore racism in American life, justify the current social order, and feel more comfortable with their relatively privileged standing in society (Fryberg, 2010). Most minorities, however, who regularly encounter difficulties due to race, experience colorblind ideologies quite differently. Colorblindness creates a society that denies their negative racial experiences, rejects their cultural heritage, and invalidates their unique perspectives.

Let's break it down into simple terms: Color-Blind = "People of color — we don't see you (at least not that bad ‘colored' part)." As a person of color, I like who I am, and I don't want any aspect of that to be unseen or invisible. The need for colorblindness implies there is something shameful about the way God made me and the culture I was born into that we shouldn't talk about. Thus, colorblindness has helped make race into a taboo topic that polite people cannot openly discuss. And if you can't talk about it, you can't understand it, much less fix the racial problems that plague our society.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/colorblind/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism

When you don't see my color, then you don't see me. And we can never be real friends because a part of my daily existence, and part of the history that made me, me you refuse to see. When I run into racism, no matter how blatant, you can't help me because you will not see it. And if I try to explain it, you will have to call me mistaken or a liar, because you will not see it.

Calling people wrong or a liar doesn't endear us one to another.

But colour-blindness is a goal to get to. Hence the "should".

Everything that you said was once equally applicable to those who said that they didn't care if somebody was Irish. These days, an Irish person would really need to go out of their way to find someone who's being racist against them. The goal is to get to a similar kind of place for blacks and other races.

Also, why should I care if you're proud of your heritage? If it's an important part of your identity and I want to be your friend then obviously I should give it a great deal of consideration and support, the same way that I should if you're a proud Scotsman or a dedicated Civil War re-enactor, but if I'm simply dealing with you as a fellow member of society that I am interacting with on a limited basis then it's not an relevant part of our relationship. If I treat you negatively because of your race and deny you opportunities and such then that's bad, but if my association with you is "let's work together to get this project done" then it's completely moot whether or not I appreciate and respect the cultural treasures inherent in your Brazilian identity or if I don't give a rat's ass where your people came from and treat you the same as every other co-worker.
 
That sounds all well and good, even noble, but that is not how colorblindness works. Consider

White people, who are unlikely to experience disadvantages due to race, can effectively ignore racism in American life, justify the current social order, and feel more comfortable with their relatively privileged standing in society (Fryberg, 2010). Most minorities, however, who regularly encounter difficulties due to race, experience colorblind ideologies quite differently. Colorblindness creates a society that denies their negative racial experiences, rejects their cultural heritage, and invalidates their unique perspectives.

Let's break it down into simple terms: Color-Blind = "People of color — we don't see you (at least not that bad ‘colored' part)." As a person of color, I like who I am, and I don't want any aspect of that to be unseen or invisible. The need for colorblindness implies there is something shameful about the way God made me and the culture I was born into that we shouldn't talk about. Thus, colorblindness has helped make race into a taboo topic that polite people cannot openly discuss. And if you can't talk about it, you can't understand it, much less fix the racial problems that plague our society.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/colorblind/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism

When you don't see my color, then you don't see me. And we can never be real friends because a part of my daily existence, and part of the history that made me, me you refuse to see. When I run into racism, no matter how blatant, you can't help me because you will not see it. And if I try to explain it, you will have to call me mistaken or a liar, because you will not see it.

Calling people wrong or a liar doesn't endear us one to another.

But colour-blindness is a goal to get to. Hence the "should".

Everything that you said was once equally applicable to those who said that they didn't care if somebody was Irish. These days, an Irish person would really need to go out of their way to find someone who's being racist against them. The goal is to get to a similar kind of place for blacks and other races.

Also, why should I care if you're proud of your heritage? If it's an important part of your identity and I want to be your friend then obviously I should give it a great deal of consideration and support, the same way that I should if you're a proud Scotsman or a dedicated Civil War re-enactor, but if I'm simply dealing with you as a fellow member of society that I am interacting with on a limited basis then it's not an relevant part of our relationship. If I treat you negatively because of your race and deny you opportunities and such then that's bad, but if my association with you is "let's work together to get this project done" then it's completely moot whether or not I appreciate and respect the cultural treasures inherent in your Brazilian identity or if I don't give a rat's ass where your people came from and treat you the same as every other co-worker.

You tom are colorblind.

You are an equal opportunity smartass, and we all love you for it.

But while you are over here being all equal opportunity, I still have to live in a world where if my name doesn't sound white, my resume gets tossed. When I go to the Realtor's office to look for a house, I am only taken to black black neighborhoods unless I specifically name other addresses I wish to see. I still get mistaken for "the help."

Wishing for colorblindness as a goal is one thing. Practicing it in a world still ruled by various supremacies is foolhardy.
 
You tom are colorblind.

You are an equal opportunity smartass, and we all love you for it.

But while you are over here being all equal opportunity, I still have to live in a world where if my name doesn't sound white, my resume gets tossed. When I go to the Realtor's office to look for a house, I am only taken to black black neighborhoods unless I specifically name other addresses I wish to see. I still get mistaken for "the help."

Wishing for colorblindness as a goal is one thing. Practicing it in a world still ruled by various supremacies is foolhardy.

The same can be said for being openly gay - you get beaten to death for that because you are an abomination. The same can be said for being Irish - you can't get a job because everyone considers you to be a drunken criminal. The same can be said for being a Protestant - the Catholic Church will set you on fire for that shit.

Oh wait, none of those are true anymore despite their being completely valid complaints at some point in the past.

When somebody tosses your resume due to a black name or only takes you to black neighbourhoods to look for houses, they are in the wrong. When somebody doesn't do that and treats you like everyone else, they are in the right. People being colour-blind is an example of people being in the right. It is not something to be dissed because others are not colour-blind anymore than a father who doesn't care that his son is gay should be dissed because there are other people who aren't him that are homophobes.
 
You tom are colorblind.

You are an equal opportunity smartass, and we all love you for it.

But while you are over here being all equal opportunity, I still have to live in a world where if my name doesn't sound white, my resume gets tossed. When I go to the Realtor's office to look for a house, I am only taken to black black neighborhoods unless I specifically name other addresses I wish to see. I still get mistaken for "the help."

Wishing for colorblindness as a goal is one thing. Practicing it in a world still ruled by various supremacies is foolhardy.

The same can be said for being openly gay - you get beaten to death for that because you are an abomination. The same can be said for being Irish - you can't get a job because everyone considers you to be a drunken criminal. The same can be said for being a Protestant - the Catholic Church will set you on fire for that shit.

Oh wait, none of those are true anymore despite their being completely valid complaints at some point in the past.

When somebody tosses your resume due to a black name or only takes you to black neighbourhoods to look for houses, they are in the wrong. When somebody doesn't do that and treats you like everyone else, they are in the right. People being colour-blind is an example of people being in the right. It is not something to be dissed because others are not colour-blind anymore than a father who doesn't care that his son is gay should be dissed because there are other people who aren't him that are homophobes.

But in their doing right, are they still fight the fight against those doing wrong? If they are colorblind, they won't see the black name being the reason the resume was tossed. You can have ten resumes tossed, all with black sounding names, but the colorblind person will stend days coming up with 10 personal reasons why each person got their resume tossed, and that's even if the company in question has been found guilty of breaking EEOC laws in the past. Colorblind people will not see racial injustice. How can they? They are colorblind.

If you have to pretend not to see my color, is it because there is something wrong with my color? Don't get upset. I am not accusing you just If I were blond, would you feel like you had to be hair color blind? You can treat people fairly and without fault or favor and not be colorblind, not feel you have to ignore part of their experience, part of what they have to live with every day.

No one on these boards is going to say that racism doesn't exist, but some here find themselves hard pressed to ever notice it when it is happening and will take any out to not have to admit any particular case is in any way racist. That is how colorblindness works.
 
No one on these boards is going to say that racism doesn't exist, but some here find themselves hard pressed to ever notice it when it is happening and will take any out to not have to admit any particular case is in any way racist. That is how colorblindness works.

You and Tom seem to have very different views on what colour-blindness means. He seems to be defining it as people not treating each other different just based on race alone. You define it as people who don't notice race at all and therefore don't notice racism?

And if that is your definition of colour blindness, people not noticing racism, then what do you call it when people see racism where it isn't or overexagerate its influence? Do these people have colour-supervision?
 
But in their doing right, are they still fight the fight against those doing wrong? If they are colorblind, they won't see the black name being the reason the resume was tossed. You can have ten resumes tossed, all with black sounding names, but the colorblind person will stend days coming up with 10 personal reasons why each person got their resume tossed, and that's even if the company in question has been found guilty of breaking EEOC laws in the past. Colorblind people will not see racial injustice. How can they? They are colorblind.

If you have to pretend not to see my color, is it because there is something wrong with my color? Don't get upset. I am not accusing you just If I were blond, would you feel like you had to be hair color blind? You can treat people fairly and without fault or favor and not be colorblind, not feel you have to ignore part of their experience, part of what they have to live with every day.

No one on these boards is going to say that racism doesn't exist, but some here find themselves hard pressed to ever notice it when it is happening and will take any out to not have to admit any particular case is in any way racist. That is how colorblindness works.

Is it that you want people to treat you differently because of your race? :confused2:
 
If they are colorblind, they won't see the black name being the reason the resume was tossed.

Can you show where Tom in any way implied that? Are you implying Tom doesn't see racism?
 
If they are colorblind, they won't see the black name being the reason the resume was tossed.

Can you show where Tom in any way implied that? Are you implying Tom doesn't see racism?

I will state out right that Tom isn't Colorblind, but he holds it as goal to have a society that is.

I get what he's going for. And in a world where all things are equal, it will be a beautiful thing. I just don't think that time has come. Will it come? I so hope so, but for it to come, a whole lot of people got a whole lot of work to do.
 
The same can be said for being openly gay - you get beaten to death for that because you are an abomination. The same can be said for being Irish - you can't get a job because everyone considers you to be a drunken criminal. The same can be said for being a Protestant - the Catholic Church will set you on fire for that shit.

Oh wait, none of those are true anymore despite their being completely valid complaints at some point in the past.

When somebody tosses your resume due to a black name or only takes you to black neighbourhoods to look for houses, they are in the wrong. When somebody doesn't do that and treats you like everyone else, they are in the right. People being colour-blind is an example of people being in the right. It is not something to be dissed because others are not colour-blind anymore than a father who doesn't care that his son is gay should be dissed because there are other people who aren't him that are homophobes.

But in their doing right, are they still fight the fight against those doing wrong? If they are colorblind, they won't see the black name being the reason the resume was tossed. You can have ten resumes tossed, all with black sounding names, but the colorblind person will stend days coming up with 10 personal reasons why each person got their resume tossed, and that's even if the company in question has been found guilty of breaking EEOC laws in the past. Colorblind people will not see racial injustice. How can they? They are colorblind.

If you have to pretend not to see my color, is it because there is something wrong with my color? Don't get upset. I am not accusing you just If I were blond, would you feel like you had to be hair color blind? You can treat people fairly and without fault or favor and not be colorblind, not feel you have to ignore part of their experience, part of what they have to live with every day.

No one on these boards is going to say that racism doesn't exist, but some here find themselves hard pressed to ever notice it when it is happening and will take any out to not have to admit any particular case is in any way racist. That is how colorblindness works.

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree with your main premise. While the eventual goal would be to get to a place where people don't even think of using colour to form opinions of people, that's not the case today. People who are colour-blind are not that way because of they are unaware of all these racial issues but because they are deeply aware of them and aware of how wrong they are. It's based off of the realization of how invalid a criteria it is and making a conscious choice to not use it in their decision making.

It's deciding not to be racist, not stumbling in to a lack of racism due to a lack of realization about it.
 
reverse-racism.jpg

Reverse Racism
What they say:
“Blacks cry ‘racism’ for everything, even though they are more or just as racist as white people.”

Response:
Let’s first define racism with this formula: Racism = racial prejudice + systemic institutional power.
To say people of color can be racist, denies the power imbalance inherent in racism. Although some Black people dislike whites and act on that prejudice to insult or hurt them, that’s not the same as systematically oppressing them and negatively affecting every aspect of their lives.
People of color, as a social group, do not possess the societal, institutional power to oppress white people as a group. An individual Black person who is abusing a white person, while clearly wrong, is acting out a personal racial prejudice, not racism.

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/02/10/7-things-color-blind-racist-friend-might-say-respond/2/
 
Sure Athena, lets redefine racism so that black people can pretend they can't be racist.

There is no such thing as reverse racism. Racism is racism, no matter who is the perp and who is the target, and black people are just as capable as anybody else of being a bigot and discriminating against people and judging people and making assumptions about people based on race.
 
AthenaAwakened said:
bigfield said:
It doesn't do any good to presume things about a individual's life based on their skin colour, such as whether or not they meet one criteria for a blues musician.

I doubt that when Perspicuo made that comment about colour-blindness, I doubt he also meant it to mean that Americans should be oblivious to social problems involving race.
I too doubt that was the intention, but it is the outcome.
If you suspected what he actually meant then your response was disingenuous.

How? You need not consciously plan to harm racial minorities day in and day out in order to support or participate in a system of white supremacy.
Choosing not to presume things about a individual's life based on their skin colour is not (passive) participation in a system of white supremacy, and it is not support for white supremacy. It is in fact a decision to not participate in the oppression of people of colour. It does not imply a denial of, dismissal of, or obliviousness to the existence of racial discrimination perpetrated by others.

It should be obvious that one can be aware of racial discrimination, refrain from perpetrating it oneself, and at the same time be aware of and oppose discrimination perpetuated by others.
 
Let’s first define racism with this formula: Racism = racial prejudice + systemic institutional power

Ya, that's just a poor definition. It's the racial prejudice that's racism all on it's own.

It's true that if you have the systemic institutional power backing up your racism, it makes it much, much worse simply because your power gives you the ability to cause more harm than someone without power would be able to cause. That doesn't, however, mean that racial prejudice on the part of the powerless is any less racist. You can't just define groups out of the definition.

If a black person hates white people as a group, that black person is a racist. The fact that he does not have sufficient power to manifest his racism into the systematic oppression of the whites means that his racism isn't going to cause as much harm as that of someone who does have the power to oppress the group he hates, but it doesn't make him less of a racist.
 
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