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Should you kill that mosquito? Original Position and Reincarnation

That's why in practical application it has to be interpreted subjectively.

I think it will be interpreted subjectively/heuristically until people come up with better models for the moral questions at hand. I believe that at some point it will be possible to analyze a wide variety of ethical/moral questions and come up with definite answers with respect to a given model. Just like any science, people will then propose different models and with respect to a defined list of criteria say which one is better than the other. Just because there might not be a single best model for all situations doesn't mean that one can't develop objective models which capture specific criteria for a situation and allow us to say something definite.

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If there can be an objective theory of morality it should work when we have to deal with insects, space aliens, etc.

I was just trying to suggest an objective basis for this theory. I think all this concern for reincarnation is seriously sidetracking your project from the get-go. Concern for the well being of insects and other non-human species is an example of the important role that symbolism has in moral systems. It serves the same function as the proverbial canary in a coal mine.
 
Regardless of the reason that they got reborn as an insect, you are doing their soul a favour by ending that lifetime as quickly as possible and letting them move on to a potentially better one. They go from "Oh shit, I'm a frigging mosquito" to SPLAT - "Yay, now I'm a puppy". It's kind of a win for them.

If being a mosquito is bad, and an adversary is choosing, they will continue to choose the bad choice for each death. You wouldn't ever end up a puppy. The point is a law is fair/ an action is just, even if you play the game and end up as the player you don't want to be, you would still view the law as fair or action just.
 
I was just trying to suggest an objective basis for this theory. I think all this concern for reincarnation is seriously sidetracking your project from the get-go. Concern for the well being of insects and other non-human species is an example of the important role that symbolism has in moral systems. It serves the same function as the proverbial canary in a coal mine.

I agree the reincarnation aspect of the discussion seems to be bringing out people's baggage concerning reincarnation rather than serving as a tool by which to analyse the moral question in terms of game theory. In a single iteration of a game, with pay off matrices like those I gave earlier, and where you don't know whether you play the Human or Mosquito or even the probability of which one you'll play, it seems pretty clear you don't want that the human squishes. The don't notice column I suggested later made the human squishes action less bad, but still not good. At the time of the first post, I thought iterating a modified game suggested some way that it might be okay, so put reincarnation in the title. Later, in the thread, I came up with a weak, still unsatisfying, example of this.

At the time, I didn't think that many humans and many mosquitos playing the game in parallel, which avoids the mention of reincarnation, was exactly the same as iterating the game, but maybe there is some way to phrase it in terms of this?
 
It's summer time here in North America and there are plenty of mosquitos to bite around. My first question is it moral to squish them?

One way to judge the morality of an action is to consider it in terms of something like Rawl's original position. That is, you consider the starting space of all people who might potentially squish mosquitos together with all the mosquitos who potentially might be squished or spared from squishing. The probability of carrying out the action is fair/just/moral provided that if you didn't know what individual human or mosquito you would be assigned to in advance, you would adopt to have the action carried out with that probability.

Each individual in the space has a different pay off for either squishing, not squishing, being squished, not being squished. There are many more mosquitoes than humans. Humans probably have a larger space of opportunities to understanding than mosquitoes. Since the action might be carried out more than once, it is probably an iterated game (hence, the reincarnation in the title).

You could probably come up with some game theory model for this. I haven't. My second question is, does anyone know of results where people have worked this kind of stuff out?

I'd say it's obviously okay to kill the mosquito - which, btw., might kill you as well if you don't... and on that note, how about bacteria instead of mosquitoes?
Instead of squishing, is it permissible to kill them in the gazillions with products to disinfect knives and forks, for example, or with antibiotics, etc.? (seriously, of course, I think it's okay to kill them, but the same goes for the mosquitoes).
 
I've heard some people who draw the line at things with central nervous systems, but I figure that's about as artificial as anything. Unless, of course, they produce lots of serotonin and dopamine, and feel fricken awesome most of the time.

Even if that's the case, if they aren't really aware of whats going on, like a person on a bunch of drugs, WTF. It's not like they are going to contribute to the infrastructure in any way other than being food. That is unless you consider that the atomic scale entities that make us up are conscious, and can participate in our consciousness...


(which seems like G's US (Jesus) bullshit made up by human authorities who want to control the masses through religion to me, no matter how cool it would be, and no matter what temporary psychosis I develop because of drugs developed by aforementioned authorities- can they make the psychosis permanent in someone with my brain function? Maybe keep me downtrodden and tortured for another year or so?? Keep putting me in situations in which I feel like I'm being manipulated away from joy... maybe that will allow them to win their evil game. :cheeky:

 
Regardless of the reason that they got reborn as an insect, you are doing their soul a favour by ending that lifetime as quickly as possible and letting them move on to a potentially better one. They go from "Oh shit, I'm a frigging mosquito" to SPLAT - "Yay, now I'm a puppy". It's kind of a win for them.

If being a mosquito is bad, and an adversary is choosing, they will continue to choose the bad choice for each death. You wouldn't ever end up a puppy. The point is a law is fair/ an action is just, even if you play the game and end up as the player you don't want to be, you would still view the law as fair or action just.

Not relevant. You'd still be giving the guy a chance. It's possible that he'll be just as screwed in his next life as he is in this one and it's possible that he'll get an upgrade. If you're walking down the road and you see someone sinking into quicksand, you help pull him out of the quicksand. The fact that the same group who tossed him in there in the first place might come along after you leave and throw him right back into it isn't a justification for you to just walk past the guy and ignore his plight.

Similarly, if you kill a soul which is trapped in the body of a mosquito, you are helping that soul. While your help might not actually lead to any improvement, there's a chance that it might. If, however, you make the choice to allow his mosquito existence to continue when you have the opportunity to end it for him, you are willing becoming an active participant in the deliberate torture of a sentient being. That sort of sociopathic decision making is the kind of thing which gets a guy dumped into the body of a mosquito in his next life as karmic retribution for his evil actions.
 
I was just trying to suggest an objective basis for this theory. I think all this concern for reincarnation is seriously sidetracking your project from the get-go. Concern for the well being of insects and other non-human species is an example of the important role that symbolism has in moral systems. It serves the same function as the proverbial canary in a coal mine.

I agree the reincarnation aspect of the discussion seems to be bringing out people's baggage concerning reincarnation rather than serving as a tool by which to analyse the moral question in terms of game theory. In a single iteration of a game, with pay off matrices like those I gave earlier, and where you don't know whether you play the Human or Mosquito or even the probability of which one you'll play, it seems pretty clear you don't want that the human squishes. The don't notice column I suggested later made the human squishes action less bad, but still not good. At the time of the first post, I thought iterating a modified game suggested some way that it might be okay, so put reincarnation in the title. Later, in the thread, I came up with a weak, still unsatisfying, example of this.

At the time, I didn't think that many humans and many mosquitos playing the game in parallel, which avoids the mention of reincarnation, was exactly the same as iterating the game, but maybe there is some way to phrase it in terms of this?

I think you should confine the initial discussion to the human species and when that is established expand the context to include the non-human but sentient. Of course you would then need to avoid any situations which involved them. For me it's not as much of an issue because, as I already explained, morality is inherently a matter of species survival. While it is a subjective reality for each species it is the objective truth for life as a whole. If it weren't true, life, or those species for which it was not true, would cease to exist.

But I also want to thank you for bringing up reincarnation since it caused me to consider its role in human morality. It's interesting that people need an explanation of why they are often inclined to go out of their way to spare the life of an insect. I believe it's due to the symbolic value of any animate creature. From an early age children in many if not most cultures are encouraged to identify with all variety of them. We humanize them in order to emphasize the importance of whatever qualities we identify in them that remind us of ourselves. To ignore those qualities would be to diminish their value in each other as human beings. In that way it's only symbolic. But the brain loves to deal in metaphors. Taking one model and adapting it to a new situation. It's the basic principle of intelligent thought. It just occurred to me that the reason people believe in reincarnation is because they don't recognize this aspect of understanding the world. They would rather believe in some spiritual realm which is inherently unexplainable and therefore unquestionable. It acts like a balm for their anxious mind. But the same thing happens in western societies with the advent of Platonism in which we explain existence as being based on a realm of perfect forms. It's an effective basis for science with it's ability to conceive of hierarchies of relationships, but it produces religion as an aberration which directly conflict with it. It also interferes with species survival because it encourages irrational justification of individual selfish interests. That is, doing good so that you will be rewarded in the afterlife, rather than for the beneficial effect on the human race.
 
Either that, or morality is a device designed to govern human interactions with each other and doesn't apply to how we treat insects.

If there can be an objective theory of morality it should work when we have to deal with insects, space aliens, etc.

Why should it?

We can objectively measure the snouts of dogs. Does that mean we can objectively measure the snouts of starfish?

You are going to have to fill in some of your reasoning here...

The starfish's snout has length 0. I appreciate the point that the theory might not be very meaningful for some domains. An objective moral theory would probably have results of the form, if these conditions are met, then this is a model of such-and-such moral problem, and here are some consequences of the model.

Zero and null are not the same thing. The absence of a snout is not the same as the presence of a snout of zero length.

As anyone who is passingly familiar with data retrieval systems can tell you, "Null is null or not a number".

I guess I was failing to be silly in my response above. To me the statement, "how long is a starfish's snout" asks the evaluator to return a numeric quantity for a nonexistent property. In programming languages, there are lots of ways this may be handled. The one that follows the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle best, at least in the short run, is to return 0.

That's simply not true. The simplest (and almost always the best) way to handle it is to return 'null'. Zero is a number, and if you don't mean zero, you should not return zero. If your software is interrogating a data set that includes 'null' values, and is not able to handle a return of 'null', then it is badly written and should be re-done.

As to the morality of killing mosquitoes, given that mosquitoes are the most dangerous animals on Earth with respect to their threat to human life, not only is squishing them not immoral; I would argue that NOT killing mosquitoes when the opportunity exists to do so (without harm to any human) is an immoral act.
 
You know- maybe it's better to keep those bloodsucking pathogen spreaders around, like it's better to keep rapists around. Because how are you going to build tolerance to being raped without rapists?
 
You know- maybe it's better to keep those bloodsucking pathogen spreaders around, like it's better to keep rapists around. Because how are you going to build tolerance to being raped without rapists?

Also, if nobody is raping anyone, how could we possibly determine that not rasping people is a good thing?
 
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