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Skeptic's Challenge

What is so impractical about asking for actual Jewish sources for how Jewish genealogy is approached? I'm sorry, but I don't trust Christian sources to represent the truth with regard to the Bible, they have a terrible track record in that regard.

What's so impractical about it? Number 1, you could do it yourself.

Why would I do that, it is your argument, and you are the one who issued the challenge to all skeptics claiming that you would successfully refute them. To do so you should do your own work.

Number 2, I already had given one and you rejected it.

I must have missed it, and I have skimmed back through our discussion and not found it as well. Could you be so kind as to point out where you have provided me with the requested source, or just repeat it if you like.

Number 3 How many Jewish genealogical sources would you imagine exist that are unbiased from a Biblical and theological perspective,

Who said it had to be from a biblical perspective? In fact, I would prefer it to be from a non Biblical perspective in order to remove the possibility of bias.

Number 4, what makes them any more accurate than anyone else?

Who would know more about Jewish genealogy than a Jewish genealogy expert? Also see the post to which you respond. In it I say "I don't trust Christian sources to represent the truth with regard to the Bible, they have a terrible track record in that regard", and that is really all that needs to be said.
 
OK, I'll chime in here with a scientific inaccuracy and look for a response. According to Genesis, thorns did not exist until after man was made. Thorns on plants are the product of man's sin of eating the forbidden fruit.

3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Yet we have fossil thorns from at least the Eocene about 50 million years ago. Here's a pic of some:

image.jpg

We even have ancient cacti from millions of years before man arose and other examples, of thorns going as far back as the Devonian.

How is that not a scientific inaccuracy?

SLD
 
Don't bother, SLD. Our Challenger has been gone for a couple of weeks, and was not defending his challenge for weeks before that. He probably ran off to some other forum to issue the same challenge, proclaiming that he has never been beaten, while having spectacularly failed to win a single challenge here.
 
The skeptic's challenge is this. Produce any alleged contradictions, imperfections, historical or scientific inaccuracies you perceive in the Bible and I will successfully refute them. The only rule is that you can give only one at a time per person. When I answer your first then you can provide a second if you wish.

A: With god, all things are possible.
B: Some guy was with god, but he nonetheless could not defeat iron chariots.
 
Aw, c'mon.
I was hoping one of you guys/gals/"them" (?) would ante up some disproof that the Bible is a magic book.
As long as you can't do that, it's all out Dungeons and Dragons in CreoWorld. :)
 
london-hammer.png


Photo from Flintstone's tool shed.
:LOL:
 
The Adam and Eve story is copied from an older Sumerian story. The pun only works in Sumerian.
https://www.google.com.au/search?hl...ws_rd=ssl#safe=active&q=sumerian+rib+pun++eve

There's no evidence of that of course, just because one finds a story engraved in a stone, whereas the other story (the biblical Adam & Eve) was written on parchment; which unlike stone, needs to be renewed and replaced once in a while. Trying to estimate the origin or time of the story; comparing the both Sumerian or Biblical versions, dating parchments ( from a succession of previously written parchments), doesn't sound a good way, logically, to give you any accurate estimation to assume... the Sumerian version was copied. Why not the other way round? Besides... the stories sound similar obviously..... because they come from the same past!

Parts of proverbs is copied from an Egyptian story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction_of_Amenemope

Same as the previous above.
 
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I see, some ancient cultures went 'paperless'.

Without sciernce and a fossil record speculating there was an original human pair would have been a logicall conclusion.

Imagining distant stars as wholes in a shell was also a logical speculation of the times.

An adult that acutely believes Santa Claus lives at the North Pole would be considers to have a mental issue. Yet theists who believe a few lines going back thousands of years is real consider themselves fine. Go figure.
 
I see, some ancient cultures went 'paperless'.

Sure. Did you know also, long before Confucius, in the classical Chinese era, were mono-theists who had a similar belief like Genesis too?


Without sxienxe abd a fossil record speculating there was an original human pair would have been a local conclusion.

Imagining distant stars as hles in a shell was also a logical co=speculation of the times.

An adult that acutely believes Santa Claus lives at the North Pole would be considerd to have a mental issue. Yet theists who believe a few lines going back thousands of years is real consider themselves fine. Go figure.

66 books is a lota lota lines. Did you know archeologist use the bible to find ancient places, not just in Israel, but not so much the Sumerians text, if at all? I figured this.. of no surprise.
 
The books are an unconnected set of wriings that include history and gerontology of the ancient Jews along with myths. Adam and Eve a few lines from an unknown author.

The Chinese traditions predated Jesus by many centuries. Chinese traditions like Taoism have the same paranormal beliefs as Christns. Fiath healing for example. Chi or life force which can be used to heal, or kill at a distance. Chines period movies are filled with it.

In Indian traditions chi is pranja.

In the 60s 70s some thought the during the missing early years of Jesus in the gospels he traveled to Indiaa.

Compared to Chinese and Indian traditions Christianity is simplistic.

The recorded history of human civilization is one of assimilation and cross pollination of ideas and beliefs.

The ancient Jews were not very original. The Jews had a male spirit, but no corresponding female spirit. Maybe that led to the oppressive misogynist patriarchal culture.

Central and South American cultures all devloped gods in isolation form the oer continets. Humans creting gods and belifs are not unique to the ancient Jews. There is no reason to think the ancient Jewish beliefs were more true than others.
 
The books are an unconnected set of wriings that include history and gerontology of the ancient Jews along with myths. Adam and Eve a few lines from an unknown author.

This "unconnected set of writings..." is a 'matter of opinion' imo. Because... when verses are taken from other books, like for example: the mentioning or quoting of verses (people & prophets etc.), taken from other previously written books... actually shows you, there IS a connection with the various books.

"Unknown author" again is your (personal) opinion. Like the above, Moses is well accepted as author of the first five books, historically highlighted through generations, Genesis to Deutronomy, as shown in just the few verses below, which should be suffice to get the idea:

Daniel 9:11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.

Ezra 6: 18 They assigned the priests to their divisions and the Levites to their divisions, over the service of God in Jerusalem, as it is written in the Book of Moses.

Nemiah 13:1 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;

Joshua 23:6 Therefore be very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, lest you turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left.

Romans 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them."


Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me.


The Chinese traditions predated Jesus by many centuries. Chinese traditions like Taoism have the same paranormal beliefs as Christns. Fiath healing for example. Chi or life force which can be used to heal, or kill at a distance. Chines period movies are filled with itIn Indian traditions chi is pranja.
In the 60s 70s some thought the during the missing early years of Jesus in the gospels he traveled to Indiaa.
No prob... no conflictions with the Gospel teachings of Christ.

Compared to Chinese and Indian traditions Christianity is simplistic.

Simplistic, or simple to understand? Christianity does often seem to be the odd-one-out, from other religions, according to atheists who often debates Christianity. It's probably that hell fire thing, but I suppose Islam shares the spot in this particular case. Anyway.. the beauty of the Gospels is... it needn't be difficult to understand. Simply saying: It was literally meant for everyone!

The recorded history of human civilization is one of assimilation and cross pollination of ideas and beliefs. The ancient Jews were not very original. The Jews had a male spirit, but no corresponding female spirit. Maybe that led to the oppressive misogynist patriarchal culture.
Well it depends 'how and why' you're seeing it that way. I mean... are you talking in terms that the context also implies to you: "that there are NO spirits in females, but only males?" Or, that both physical males and females possess only male spirits? Or what?

Central and South American cultures all devloped gods in isolation form the oer continets. Humans creting gods and belifs are not unique to the ancient Jews. There is no reason to think the ancient Jewish beliefs were more true than others.

It mentions that in the bible too, like when the Israelites started shifting their prayers to big bull; putting other gods before the Almighty etc.. Meaning, the bible uniquely tells us already, of One particular God the Israelites were aware of, as well as other gods that were worshipped in different cultures and nations.
 
The books are an unconnected set of wriings that include history and gerontology of the ancient Jews along with myths. Adam and Eve a few lines from an unknown author.
This "unconnected set of writings..." is a 'matter of opinion' imo. Because... when verses are taken from other books, like for example: the mentioning or quoting of verses (people & prophets etc.), taken from other previously written books... actually shows you, there IS a connection with the various books. "Unknown author" again is your (personal) opinion. Like the above, Moses is well accepted as author of the first five books, historically highlighted through generations, Genesis to Deutronomy, as shown in just the few verses below, which should be suffice to get the idea:
There isn't even consensus that "Moses" ever actually existed. Also, it'd be quite something for Moses to have written Exodus which was explicitly a made up narrative as there is no evidence it ever happened like Hebrew captivity, forget the whole over-the-top part of the trials, judgment, and escape/exodus from Egypt. The fact there are two Decalogues almost exclusively proves one guy didn't write the Torah.
Compared to Chinese and Indian traditions Christianity is simplistic.
Simplistic, or simple to understand?
Simplistic as in without much of any moral standard or teachings. The Eightfold path is merely a short outline that speaks volumes on moral and just behavior, while the New Testament just says volumes.
Christianity does often seem to be the odd-one-out, from other religions, according to atheists who often debates Christianity. It's probably that hell fire thing, but I suppose Islam shares the spot in this particular case. Anyway.. the beauty of the Gospels is... it needn't be difficult to understand. Simply saying: It was literally meant for everyone!
It isn't hard to understand as there is little material to read. For Holy Books, The New Testament is an padded outline.
Central and South American cultures all devloped gods in isolation form the oer continets. Humans creting gods and belifs are not unique to the ancient Jews. There is no reason to think the ancient Jewish beliefs were more true than others.
It mentions that in the bible too, like when the Israelites started shifting their prayers to big bull; putting other gods before the Almighty etc.. Meaning, the bible uniquely tells us already, of One particular God the Israelites were aware of, as well as other gods that were worshipped in different cultures and nations.
It technically spoke of three different gods Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob worshipped as well.
 
Yes Learner, a matter of opinion not fact.

But copare the bible to the Bhagavad Gita.


By spirit I meant a representation of the female hall of humanity. The ancient Jews were misogynistic and patriarchal. Women neen d naot apply. The Greeks and male and female gods which like the bible nale god reflected human characteristics..



The 613mitzvots. All the requirements of god in the bible. some quite bizarre. So if you believe the bible represents a coherent morality for a Cristian to follow start with #1. The bible says....



There is no evidence of the Exodus or Jews as captives working on pyramids, like the goofy movie The Ten Commandments.
 
NT descriptions of a God of Love contradict OT descriptions of a cruel, intolerant and vindictive god.
Well, there’s good and bad in all of us, or so they say. And in the image of god we were made, they also say.
:shrug:
 
A flawed god that is full of contradictions contradicts the claim of a perfect God.

''You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.'' Matthew 5:48

“As for God, His way is blameless.'' 2 Samuel 22:31
 
The books are an unconnected set of wriings that include history and gerontology of the ancient Jews along with myths. Adam and Eve a few lines from an unknown author.
This "unconnected set of writings..." is a 'matter of opinion' imo. Because... when verses are taken from other books, like for example: the mentioning or quoting of verses (people & prophets etc.), taken from other previously written books... actually shows you, there IS a connection with the various books. "Unknown author" again is your (personal) opinion. Like the above, Moses is well accepted as author of the first five books, historically highlighted through generations, Genesis to Deutronomy, as shown in just the few verses below, which should be suffice to get the idea:
There isn't even consensus that "Moses" ever actually existed. Also, it'd be quite something for Moses to have written Exodus which was explicitly a made up narrative as there is no evidence it ever happened like Hebrew captivity, forget the whole over-the-top part of the trials, judgment, and escape/exodus from Egypt. The fact there are two Decalogues almost exclusively proves one guy didn't write the Torah.

No consensus? Not even one that would affirm for you... the opinion, that "Moses never existed"? Ok, I don't think I'll argue with that. The "exodus never happened" notion, is debatable among some of the archeological/historical investigators - no doubt between both Secular and Believer.

I have a new interest of study, with the two Decalogue's, cheers for bringing it up . Well spotted Mr. Higgins you are right here... there does seems to be different writers here. The phrase that's often used, " the Five Books of Moses" could either mean, the Five books is 'about Moses' or, it could also mean (incorrectly) that ALL Five books are written directly by Moses. I have always heard the phrase, First Five books of Moses, which got etched into my mind, without bothering, or thinking to read it properly. That'll teach me to be confidently lazy... but it's good, as I have a rejuvenated investigative curious bug again.... so far, I understand that one book is from the perspective of the 3rd person, who noticeably doesn't try to be Moses... who seems to be writing rather, from a witness perspective; around those written events. The other is the perspective from the author, who would be Moses himself.

Compared to Chinese and Indian traditions Christianity is simplistic.
Simplistic, or simple to understand?
Simplistic as in without much of any moral standard or teachings. The Eightfold path is merely a short outline that speaks volumes on moral and just behavior, while the New Testament just says volumes.

Well we're not going to agree here on the moral standards or teachings, but we can discuss further in due course.
Christianity does often seem to be the odd-one-out, from other religions, according to atheists who often debates Christianity. It's probably that hell fire thing, but I suppose Islam shares the spot in this particular case. Anyway.. the beauty of the Gospels is... it needn't be difficult to understand. Simply saying: It was literally meant for everyone!
It isn't hard to understand as there is little material to read. For Holy Books, The New Testament is an padded outline.

Simple to understand in terms of: anyone can understand the message, which is the intention - from the "lowly" simple man to the scholarly academic etc... no elitism IOW.
Central and South American cultures all devloped gods in isolation form the oer continets. Humans creting gods and belifs are not unique to the ancient Jews. There is no reason to think the ancient Jewish beliefs were more true than others.
It mentions that in the bible too, like when the Israelites started shifting their prayers to big bull; putting other gods before the Almighty etc.. Meaning, the bible uniquely tells us already, of One particular God the Israelites were aware of, as well as other gods that were worshipped in different cultures and nations.
It technically spoke of three different gods Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob worshipped as well.
At least 30 plus pagan gods are acknowledged and mentioned in the bible. But some of these names could be different names (via language differences) of the same god. For example I have heard of the suggestion that Zeus to the Romans, is Jupitor... technically you could be right.
 
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I believe in Moses as much as I believe in Odin, or Thor.

Let's put it that way.
 
No consensus? Not even one that would affirm for you... the opinion, that "Moses never existed"? Ok, I don't think I'll argue with that. The "exodus never happened" notion, is debatable among some of the archeological/historical investigators - no doubt between both Secular and Believer.
Feel free to cite the evidence for a historical Moses and a historical exodus.
I am not going to hold my breath.
 
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