Skeptic's Challenge

[bilby]

No consensus? Not even one that would affirm for you... the opinion, that "Moses never existed"? Ok, I don't think I'll argue with that. The "exodus never happened" notion, is debatable among some of the archeological/historical investigators - no doubt between both Secular and Believer.

Feel free to cite the evidence for a historical Moses and a historical exodus.
I am not going to hold my breath.

The "dragons never existed" notion, is debatable among some of the archaeological/historical investigators- no doubt between both sane investigators who care about reality and Believers.

Literally anything is debatable. You can debate "are there places where dropped rocks fall upwards?".

No sane person who has any understanding whatsoever of the archaeology believes that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt and had to be rescued from that bondage. No sane person who has any understanding whatsoever of the archaeology thinks the Exodus was a real historical event.

But then, most of the people who care about this question aren't sane; They're religious. Religious is a subset of delusional - both describe a person who believes things that the evidence says are untrue.

 

[steve_bank]

The Jews wandering around the area between Egypt and Palestine for 40 years without leaving a trace or being seen by anyone?

They must have been going in circles.

 

[DBT]

As it's not a large area, they must have been going in circles for 40 years.

 

[steve_bank]

You know what tey say, its the journey not the destination.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

The Jews wandering around the area between Egypt and Palestine for 40 years without leaving a trace or being seen by anyone?

They must have been going in circles.

The Bible claims the Israelites camped out at Kadesh Barnea for 38 years. The Bible tells us 600,000 Israelite men who could weilda sword were in that horde. Double that for old men and boys. Double that for women and girls. About 2 1/2 million. Plus "innumerable" cattle big and small. Several archaeological expeditions have explored that area of Kadesh Barnea and no trace of what would have been the biggest city in the world at that time could be found. No middens, ash pits, animal bones, broken pottery, nada, nothing at all. Even if there only 1/10th the Israelites claimed, that would have still been 250,000 Israelites. And cattle.

 

[steve_bank]

Today we woud call that an migrant mass migration, humanitarian crisis, and ecological disaster.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The books are an unconnected set of wriings that include history and gerontology of the ancient Jews along with myths. Adam and Eve a few lines from an unknown author.

This "unconnected set of writings..." is a 'matter of opinion' imo. Because... when verses are taken from other books, like for example: the mentioning or quoting of verses (people & prophets etc.), taken from other previously written books... actually shows you, there IS a connection with the various books. "Unknown author" again is your (personal) opinion. Like the above, Moses is well accepted as author of the first five books, historically highlighted through generations, Genesis to Deutronomy, as shown in just the few verses below, which should be suffice to get the idea:

There isn't even consensus that "Moses" ever actually existed. Also, it'd be quite something for Moses to have written Exodus which was explicitly a made up narrative as there is no evidence it ever happened like Hebrew captivity, forget the whole over-the-top part of the trials, judgment, and escape/exodus from Egypt. The fact there are two Decalogues almost exclusively proves one guy didn't write the Torah.

No consensus? Not even one that would affirm for you... the opinion, that "Moses never existed"? Ok, I don't think I'll argue with that. The "exodus never happened" notion, is debatable among some of the archeological/historical investigators - no doubt between both Secular and Believer.

If it were "debatable", you would have cited something. It isn't debatable, it never happened. At best, maybe a group of monotheists escaped the purge of monotheism in Egypt when it was initially released.

I have a new interest of study, with the two Decalogue's, cheers for bringing it up. Well spotted Mr. Higgins you are right here... there does seems to be different writers here. The phrase that's often used, " the Five Books of Moses" could either mean, the Five books is 'about Moses' or, it could also mean (incorrectly) that ALL Five books are written directly by Moses. I have always heard the phrase, First Five books of Moses, which got etched into my mind, without bothering, or thinking to read it properly. That'll teach me to be confidently lazy... but it's good, as I have a rejuvenated investigative curious bug again.... so far, I understand that one book is from the perspective of the 3rd person, who noticeably doesn't try to be Moses... who seems to be writing rather, from a witness perspective; around those written events. The other is the perspective from the author, who would be Moses himself.

Or more likely, some group of priests who were putting this stuff down for the first time.

Compared to Chinese and Indian traditions Christianity is simplistic.

Simplistic, or simple to understand?

Simplistic as in without much of any moral standard or teachings. The Eightfold path is merely a short outline that speaks volumes on moral and just behavior, while the New Testament just says volumes.

Well we're not going to agree here on the moral standards or teachings, but we can discuss further in due course.

You don't need to agree with me. What I stated wasn't an opinion. The New Testament speaks almost nothing on morality.

Christianity does often seem to be the odd-one-out, from other religions, according to atheists who often debates Christianity. It's probably that hell fire thing, but I suppose Islam shares the spot in this particular case. Anyway.. the beauty of the Gospels is... it needn't be difficult to understand. Simply saying: It was literally meant for everyone!

It isn't hard to understand as there is little material to read. For Holy Books, The New Testament is an padded outline.

Simple to understand in terms of: anyone can understand the message, which is the intention - from the "lowly" simple man to the scholarly academic etc... no elitism IOW.

That is such a cop out... the holy scripture is dumbed down and contentless because the people were stupid.

Central and South American cultures all devloped gods in isolation form the oer continets. Humans creting gods and belifs are not unique to the ancient Jews. There is no reason to think the ancient Jewish beliefs were more true than others.

It mentions that in the bible too, like when the Israelites started shifting their prayers to big bull; putting other gods before the Almighty etc.. Meaning, the bible uniquely tells us already, of One particular God the Israelites were aware of, as well as other gods that were worshipped in different cultures and nations.

It technically spoke of three different gods Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob worshipped as well.

At least 30 plus pagan gods are acknowledged and mentioned in the bible. But some of these names could be different names (via language differences) of the same god. For example I have heard of the suggestion that Zeus to the Romans, is Jupitor... technically you could be right.

Technically? Seriously? No, in actuality, I'm right. The gods (<- notice the plural) that Abraham (El Roi, El Olam), Isaac (El Shaddai), and Jacob (El Bethel) worship are El level deities.

 

[steve_bank]

From an archeology show there is evidence that the Exodus tale may be a conflation of two events at different times.

Simplistic in that there is no real structure or morality a iter than Leviticus and the 10 Command,emts.

Don't lie, steal, commit adultery or murder. Common rules across ancient cultures.

The 613 Mitzvots are an unconnected set of requirements from an ancient tribal society.

That people quoted older scripture says nothing. I believe the Jews always had a set of side teachings not just the Torah. The Jewish cannon did not exist until after the fall of the Temple.

Solomon is a Christian icon, yet morally he was a treacherous person.

From the Oxford commentary Job was probably part pf a lost greater set of teaching materials. What yiu have as the bible is undoubtedly a small part of what was actually written.

As Jew explained to me there is no central religious authority. Like Islam today amy cleric can write a paper, Mus

lims call it a fatwa. There is no power of enforcement, unless yu libe in Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Simplistic like comparing a children's book to literature and poetry.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Today we woud call that an migrant mass migration, humanitarian crisis, and ecological disaster.

Are you saying the exodus is a gigantic pile of shit?

Our ancestors were not stupid brutes. They understood the sky, the stars and the seasons. They navigated the globe and used methods which to us are still a mystery. To believe that they could wander aimlessly in a desert region for 40 years is beyond dumb unless of course we bring in a tribal sky ghost as the reason. Of course then it becomes quite believable.

 

[steve_bank]

Religion has always been about inducing a social behavior.

In te exterme we see it today in Afghanistan, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. Women beaten in the streets for violating dress codes.

Less extreme the abortion issue here in the USA.

Romans believed a state relgion was essential to stable social order well before Chrtianity appeared.

In medieval Europe the RCC through fear of damnation contributed to ignorant illiterate peasants adhering to a morality.

 

[Learner]

Yes Learner, a matter of opinion not fact.

And by that... there's quite a few opinions on the thread. Which can be a good thing really; because at least you (plural) can be making conclusions for yourselves, with all the information one is lucky to access nowadays, which would ideally be the idea of course to freethinking, or thinking freely - If and when one isn't auto-parroting outdated notions, repeating the popular auto-easy-fix for responses.

But copare the bible to the Bhagavad Gita.

Bhagavad Gita - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

By spirit I meant a representation of the female hall of humanity. The ancient Jews were misogynistic and patriarchal. Women neen d naot apply. The Greeks and male and female gods which like the bible nale god reflected human characteristics..

Bible is clear in context, that the physicality for both male and female are not the same but they are equally special in value! Yes the bible says they're the fairer/ weaker sex, but men must protect them. I mean... it's erroneous, to be taking out of context - what is already widely accepted - from a general understanding (not to find offensive) the difference in roles that come naturally i.e., hunter-gatherer roles in communities; known in the past (and present) where men go out and hunt, while females do the gathering and keep the home etc.. The biblical context of Spirit... is NOT based on physical roles of male and female!! Nor does the bible portray it as such!!

Bhagavad Gita - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The 613mitzvots. All the requirements of god in the bible. some quite bizarre. So if you believe the bible represents a coherent morality for a Cristian to follow start with #1. The bible says....

The 613 Mitzvot

The 613 Mitzvot

www.jmu.edu

There is no evidence of the Exodus or Jews as captives working on pyramids, like the goofy movie The Ten Commandments.

I think one of your posts (or someone else) mentioned the crossing from Egypt into Palestine? Anyway... as I mentioned in the above paragraph. Auto-parroting old notions. For some years now... the investigations have been pointing towards the idea that the exodus was from Egypt into Saudi-Arabia.

 

[Learner]

Yes Learner, a matter of opinion not fact.

Yep... everyone has an opinion:

NT descriptions of a God of Love contradict OT descriptions of a cruel, intolerant and vindictive god.

 

[DBT]

Yes Learner, a matter of opinion not fact.

Yep...

NT descriptions of a God of Love contradict OT descriptions of a cruel, intolerant and vindictive god.

An opinion you think?

 

[Learner]

In my opinion, I think yes.. Although to be fair... there wasn't much to go on from your previous post.

 

[bigfield]

For some years now... the investigations have been pointing towards the idea that the exodus was from Egypt into Saudi-Arabia.

Maybe these "investigations" should just say the Israelites wandered across the Sahara and back, because at least that adds a bit more time to their trip. Still not 40 years, though.

 

[steve_bank]

Yes the male female dichotomy is clear without the bible, hoewever you can't have one without the other. High school biology.

The ancient Hebrews had only a male essence or spirit or whatever you call it. Unless of course god is genderless.

All of Christian beliefs are subjective opinion and interpretation of scant records.

Archeology does not support monolithic ancient Hebrews suddenly appearing into what we call Palestine and setting up camp.

The idea of such a large scale migration from Egypt to Palestine without ny other group making historical note or there not being any documented conflicts is not likely.

 

[Jarhyn]

Today we woud call that an migrant mass migration, humanitarian crisis, and ecological disaster.

Are you saying the exodus is a gigantic pile of shit?

Our ancestors were not stupid brutes. They understood the sky, the stars and the seasons. They navigated the globe and used methods which to us are still a mystery. To believe that they could wander aimlessly in a desert region for 40 years is beyond dumb unless of course we bring in a tribal sky ghost as the reason. Of course then it becomes quite believable.

To believe some group could have settled into a nomadic way of life for 40 generations, and come from somewhere else they assume was egypt because that is their historic tribal name for Africa...

Who knows when some of those stories were originated, or where, or whether the history is borrowed from another tribe.

 

[bilby]

somewhere else they assume was egypt because that is their historic tribal name for Africa...

- Ahh, what's so special about the cheesemakers?

- Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

 

[steve_bank]

Heston did an SNL parody of hs Moses chracter in the movie 10 Commandments. Pretty funny and even a bit insightful.

 

[steve_bank]

According to a Jew who was posting in the past, 40 meant 'a while'.

Jesus went in the dert for 40 days, awhile. Jews wandered for 40 years, a longer while.

Like a more modern in a jiffy or a New York second.

I don't thnk the story is a pile of shit. per se. A myth that evolved and was written down by a superstitious ancient peoplel. Taken up by modern superstitious peole.