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So who was Yahweh, anyway?
- Thread starter Swammerdami
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Thomas II
Contributor
I can watch it no problem...so the problem seems to be on your side...
Swammerdami
Squadron Leader
I can watch it no problem...so the problem seems to be on your side...
Hunh????
The FIRST Youtube you posted -- the one that was USELESS for this topic -- gave me the "Not available in your country" message.
I have NOT clicked on this SECOND YouTube from you, so I don't yet know if it is "available in my country" or not.
As I stated, I am waiting for YOU to post a summary of its utility.
PS: It seems like you've been unaware that SOME YouTube videos are unavailable in SOME countries. Am I correct?
Swammerdami
Squadron Leader
Proceeding slowly, this is a brief post to summarize the language families of the Near East during the 2nd millennium BC.
* In Anatolia, Anatolian was a primary language family. This family (now extinct) is a branch of Indo-European and includes Hittite.
* To the east of Anatolia, Hurrian was spoken. This is in a now-extinct family linked by some to Northeast Caucasian (Dagestan etc.). Midway through the 1st millennium, a Mitanni KIngdom arose near what was the Mari kingdom. The Mitanni spoke Hurrian with an I-E (Indo-Aryan?) adstratum.
* Egypt spoke Egyptian, a subfamily which survives today only in the liturgical (Christian) form of Coptic.
The rest of the Near East spoke languages in the Semitic family during most of the 2nd millennium BC. Semitic divides roughly into four branches:
* East Semitic, now extinct, included Akkadian, and was spoken in the East (Babylonia and Assyria). Sumero-Akkadian cuneiform was in use as the primary writing system in the Near East until the Phoenicians developed their 22-letter consonantal alphabet early in the Iron Age. Akkadian cuneiform was used not only to write Akkadian, but to write Aramaic texts and even Hittite and Hurrian. Its wide use continued even after the invention of the Phoenician alphabet.
The other three branches of Semitic form West Semitic, which is subdivided into three major branches:
* South Semitic - spoken in Ethiopia, Yemen and southern parts of Arabia
* Arabic
* Northwest Semitic (Canaanite and Aramaic)
Despite the complex military alliances and wars in Canaan's history, almost all the people involved spoke Northwest Semitic languages; these include the Ugarites, Edomites, Phoenicians, Hyksos, Amorites, Israelites, etc. The Philistine people were "Sea People" who invaded the Gaza coast circa 1175 BC and may have originally spoken Anatolian, Mycenaean Greek or Minoan, but they soon switched to a Canaanite language.
Not only did the peoples of Canaan and its neighbors speak closely related languages, but they appear to be close relatives genetically. The wars they engaged in over several centuries were thus provoked by territotial greed and religion.
* In Anatolia, Anatolian was a primary language family. This family (now extinct) is a branch of Indo-European and includes Hittite.
* To the east of Anatolia, Hurrian was spoken. This is in a now-extinct family linked by some to Northeast Caucasian (Dagestan etc.). Midway through the 1st millennium, a Mitanni KIngdom arose near what was the Mari kingdom. The Mitanni spoke Hurrian with an I-E (Indo-Aryan?) adstratum.
* Egypt spoke Egyptian, a subfamily which survives today only in the liturgical (Christian) form of Coptic.
The rest of the Near East spoke languages in the Semitic family during most of the 2nd millennium BC. Semitic divides roughly into four branches:
* East Semitic, now extinct, included Akkadian, and was spoken in the East (Babylonia and Assyria). Sumero-Akkadian cuneiform was in use as the primary writing system in the Near East until the Phoenicians developed their 22-letter consonantal alphabet early in the Iron Age. Akkadian cuneiform was used not only to write Akkadian, but to write Aramaic texts and even Hittite and Hurrian. Its wide use continued even after the invention of the Phoenician alphabet.
The other three branches of Semitic form West Semitic, which is subdivided into three major branches:
* South Semitic - spoken in Ethiopia, Yemen and southern parts of Arabia
* Arabic
* Northwest Semitic (Canaanite and Aramaic)
Despite the complex military alliances and wars in Canaan's history, almost all the people involved spoke Northwest Semitic languages; these include the Ugarites, Edomites, Phoenicians, Hyksos, Amorites, Israelites, etc. The Philistine people were "Sea People" who invaded the Gaza coast circa 1175 BC and may have originally spoken Anatolian, Mycenaean Greek or Minoan, but they soon switched to a Canaanite language.
Not only did the peoples of Canaan and its neighbors speak closely related languages, but they appear to be close relatives genetically. The wars they engaged in over several centuries were thus provoked by territotial greed and religion.
Swammerdami
Squadron Leader
(All my musings here are what I have gleaned from my limited reading. I hope our historians will point out any errors.)
There were two (and only two?) monotheistic religions known before the Iron Age. These were Atenism which flourished briefly in Egypt during the 14th century BC, and the Canaanite religion which eventually became known as Judaism. Although any attempt to place the Israelite religion in the Bronze Age is speculative, most of those who do speculate place its origin at about the same time as the origin of Atenism, and it may be assumed that one of these religions was inspired by the other. (A usual assumption is that the Canaanite religion inspired the Atenism of Egypt.) I plan to provide evidence for this connection in a later post, but first let's review 2nd millennium chronology with special attention to interaction between Egypt and Canaanites.
In the previous post I focused on language families to emphasize that the "Canaanites" were almost a united family linguistically and genetically. They all spoke Northwest Semitic languages, as did the Mari people who may have invaded Canaan (and then Egypt?) circa 1700 BC. The ethnonym Amorite (associated with the coastal region of Amurru, which included Ugarit and Byblos prior to this territory becoming a vassal of the Hittites) is closely associated with the Canaanites. It is said that the Amorites founded the Kingdom of Mari and even Old Babylon, etc. Redford wrotes "beginning in the reign of [Amenhotep III], Amurru became a favorite haunt for those "cossacklike" bands of outlaws known as 'Apiru."
But important religious differences did develop among the Canaanites. And one group of Canaanites became known as "Habiru." Throughout most of the 2nd millennium BC, "Habiru" designated an occupation -- mercenary soldier(?) -- rather than a specific tribe. The word morphed into "Hebrew" and eventually came to denote a language and a religion, but let's be cautious about postulating any identity between the 2nd millennium mercenaries and the 1st millennium Israelites.
The 18th century BC was an historic turning point because of the invention of the horse-drawn chariot (in Central Eurasia) which revolutionized warfare. Hammurabi King of Babylon used war chariots (though his were ass-drawn instead of horse-drawn and did not feature state-of-the-art spoked wheels.) Only a few decades later, Hyksos (Canaanite "shepherds") began invading northern Egypt; at some point they seem to have introduced spoked-wheel war chariots to warfare in Egypt.
While the Old Kingdom came to an abrupt end about 2180 BC due to drought, famine and civil war, the Middle Kingdom fizzled out more gradually, though it was probably another drought/famine and associated civil wars that hastened its demise. In response to the failure of the Middle Kingdom, an increasing population of Canaanite immigrants ("Hyksos") in the eastern Delta eventually gained political control of northern Egypt.
Legend associates Joseph bin Jacob with the 12th Dynasty, the last great dynasty of the Middle Kingdom) with his Hebrew kinfolk following later to seek refuge from famine. I don't think anyone can state with confidence whether
* the stories of Joseph and Jacob in Genesis have a factual basis; or
* the Bible's authors were aware of the 12th Dynasty and grafted it into their myths; or
* the Bible's myth has a different basis, or none at all, and any parallel between a famine during the 12th Dynasty and the famine of Genesis 41-42 is purely coincidence.
In any event, Egyptian documents from the 13th dynasty (ca 1745 BC) mention Hyksos servants; the 14th dynasty was by "Amorites" and represented the beginning of an "Intermediate Period" between the Middle and New Kingdoms; and the 15th dynasty was specifically Hyksos. By about 1570 BC Hyksos power was at its peak, with Hyksos ruling both Upper and Lower Kingdoms of Egypt.
Circa 1550 Ahmose I expels the Hyksos, and establishes the 18th Dynasty. This denotes the beginning of the New Kingdom. This expulsion of the Hyksos is sometimes conflated with the Exodus of the Hebrews after the Plagues, but it is the first of several interactions between Egypt and Canaanites which have separately been related to the Exodus myth:
As seen in the chronology, enslavement of Canaanites (or Habiru specifically) was common off-and-on during the New Kingdom. The small Canaanite city-states were treated as vassals of Egypt throughout this period and were treated as vassals by Egypt even during the alleged kingship of King David and his successors. It was common for the Egyptians to take the sons of Canaanite chieftains to Egypt's capital as a means of ensuring the chieftains' loyalty. These hostages were often well educated by Egypt and treated by them as aristocrats. (The myths of Joseph and Moses may have been inspired by such Canaanites serving as aristocrats in Egypt.) The Amarna Letters are a treasure of clay-tablet documents written during the 14th century by Canaanite vassals to Pharaoh.
There were two (and only two?) monotheistic religions known before the Iron Age. These were Atenism which flourished briefly in Egypt during the 14th century BC, and the Canaanite religion which eventually became known as Judaism. Although any attempt to place the Israelite religion in the Bronze Age is speculative, most of those who do speculate place its origin at about the same time as the origin of Atenism, and it may be assumed that one of these religions was inspired by the other. (A usual assumption is that the Canaanite religion inspired the Atenism of Egypt.) I plan to provide evidence for this connection in a later post, but first let's review 2nd millennium chronology with special attention to interaction between Egypt and Canaanites.
In the previous post I focused on language families to emphasize that the "Canaanites" were almost a united family linguistically and genetically. They all spoke Northwest Semitic languages, as did the Mari people who may have invaded Canaan (and then Egypt?) circa 1700 BC. The ethnonym Amorite (associated with the coastal region of Amurru, which included Ugarit and Byblos prior to this territory becoming a vassal of the Hittites) is closely associated with the Canaanites. It is said that the Amorites founded the Kingdom of Mari and even Old Babylon, etc. Redford wrotes "beginning in the reign of [Amenhotep III], Amurru became a favorite haunt for those "cossacklike" bands of outlaws known as 'Apiru."
But important religious differences did develop among the Canaanites. And one group of Canaanites became known as "Habiru." Throughout most of the 2nd millennium BC, "Habiru" designated an occupation -- mercenary soldier(?) -- rather than a specific tribe. The word morphed into "Hebrew" and eventually came to denote a language and a religion, but let's be cautious about postulating any identity between the 2nd millennium mercenaries and the 1st millennium Israelites.
The 18th century BC was an historic turning point because of the invention of the horse-drawn chariot (in Central Eurasia) which revolutionized warfare. Hammurabi King of Babylon used war chariots (though his were ass-drawn instead of horse-drawn and did not feature state-of-the-art spoked wheels.) Only a few decades later, Hyksos (Canaanite "shepherds") began invading northern Egypt; at some point they seem to have introduced spoked-wheel war chariots to warfare in Egypt.
While the Old Kingdom came to an abrupt end about 2180 BC due to drought, famine and civil war, the Middle Kingdom fizzled out more gradually, though it was probably another drought/famine and associated civil wars that hastened its demise. In response to the failure of the Middle Kingdom, an increasing population of Canaanite immigrants ("Hyksos") in the eastern Delta eventually gained political control of northern Egypt.
Legend associates Joseph bin Jacob with the 12th Dynasty, the last great dynasty of the Middle Kingdom) with his Hebrew kinfolk following later to seek refuge from famine. I don't think anyone can state with confidence whether
* the stories of Joseph and Jacob in Genesis have a factual basis; or
* the Bible's authors were aware of the 12th Dynasty and grafted it into their myths; or
* the Bible's myth has a different basis, or none at all, and any parallel between a famine during the 12th Dynasty and the famine of Genesis 41-42 is purely coincidence.
In any event, Egyptian documents from the 13th dynasty (ca 1745 BC) mention Hyksos servants; the 14th dynasty was by "Amorites" and represented the beginning of an "Intermediate Period" between the Middle and New Kingdoms; and the 15th dynasty was specifically Hyksos. By about 1570 BC Hyksos power was at its peak, with Hyksos ruling both Upper and Lower Kingdoms of Egypt.
Circa 1550 Ahmose I expels the Hyksos, and establishes the 18th Dynasty. This denotes the beginning of the New Kingdom. This expulsion of the Hyksos is sometimes conflated with the Exodus of the Hebrews after the Plagues, but it is the first of several interactions between Egypt and Canaanites which have separately been related to the Exodus myth:
- ca 1550 BC - Expulsion of Hyksos by Ahmose I, first P (Pharaoh) of 18th D (Dynasty).
- 1479 - 1425 BC - Tuthmosis III, 6th P of 18th D. He wins Battle of Megiddo, enslaving at least 3600 Habiru. The first reference to Aten the Sun God occurs during this reign. (He was co-regent with Hatshepsut his mother until 1458 BC.)
- 1388 - 1351 BC - Amenhotep III, 9th P of 18th D. Slaves at Avaris revolted during his reign. This King claims to have subdued "Yahweh (Yahu) in the land of the Shasu." (Shasu is apparently Edom, a region centered on what is now the Rock City of Petra.)
- circa 1360 BC. Major volcanic eruption on the island of Thera. This eruption had far-reaching and grave consequences often equated with the Plagues in Exodus.
- 1351 - 1334 BC - Akhenaten, 10th P of 18th D. Imposed Atenism. Tomb of Aper-El demonstrates closeness of Atenism and Hebrew religion.
- circa 1320 BC - Jericho destroyed.
- 1279 - 1213 BC - Ramesses II the Great, 3rd P of 19th D. In 1270 he used Hapiru for hard labor
- 1213 - 1203 BC - Merenptah, 4th P of 19th D. He mentions "shasu-tribes of Edom"; and mentions "Israel is laid waste"
- circa 1180 - more Hapiru are enslaved
As seen in the chronology, enslavement of Canaanites (or Habiru specifically) was common off-and-on during the New Kingdom. The small Canaanite city-states were treated as vassals of Egypt throughout this period and were treated as vassals by Egypt even during the alleged kingship of King David and his successors. It was common for the Egyptians to take the sons of Canaanite chieftains to Egypt's capital as a means of ensuring the chieftains' loyalty. These hostages were often well educated by Egypt and treated by them as aristocrats. (The myths of Joseph and Moses may have been inspired by such Canaanites serving as aristocrats in Egypt.) The Amarna Letters are a treasure of clay-tablet documents written during the 14th century by Canaanite vassals to Pharaoh.
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Whether Yahweh evolved from regional deities or absorbed influences from neighboring cultures, it's evident that ancient religions were as much about survival as they were about spirituality. People's beliefs and gods mirrored their struggles, triumphs, and hopes, and Yahweh is no exception. IMO, the same could be said for a naturalistic worldview, where reason and science take the place of deities.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
Science mirrors our "struggles, triumphs, and hopes"???? Not the science I read.
Same for reason -- which in many of its functions identifies wish fulfillment and exposes its inanity.
Same for reason -- which in many of its functions identifies wish fulfillment and exposes its inanity.
Politesse
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Read more mindfully, then. People absolutely place eschatological hope on what they imagine to be the limitless potential of Science and Reason.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
Projections on the Thwaite glacier's meltdown are hardly comforting. That's why my born-again cousins blithely ignore science. Quote: "It's a bunch of nonsense. I remember summers when I was a kid, when we had days in the high 90s."
DBT
Contributor
The Gnostic's say that Yahweh is an evil Demiurge. A godling with a bad attitude in charge of the world.
Politesse
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It's more of an either/or situation. Some considered the demiurge to be an evil figure, others regarded YHWH as the demiurge. Not generally both at once. The demiurge is a platonic concept (that which separates the material form from the ideal form, essentially) that goes back well before Christianity, and it is not necessarily good or evil.
DBT
Contributor
Hence the qualifier 'evil demiurge?' That Yahweh began His career as a demon in the Babylonian pantheon, or perhaps one of the sons of the High God El, an ambitious godling with a nasty character given dominion over the tribe of Israel.....?
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I was referring to science as a method, not its findings.
ideologyhunter
Contributor
Then I'm still missing your argument.
The scientific method has the object of eliminating the subjective. Religion idealizes the subjective.
Our struggles, hopes, fears have no place in hypothesizing, testing, observing, and retesting. They have everything to do with relying on a religious narrative for truth.
The scientific method has the object of eliminating the subjective. Religion idealizes the subjective.
Our struggles, hopes, fears have no place in hypothesizing, testing, observing, and retesting. They have everything to do with relying on a religious narrative for truth.