South Carolina police officer investigated after slamming student to ground at Spring Valley High

[Jimmy Higgins]

What school with no discipline are you talking about?

The sort of schools the leftists on here are arguing for--where nothing is done about misbehavior.

So umm... those schools that are overrun by teenagers because officers aren't smacking them for non-violent, relatively non-disruptive behavior?

 

[ksen]

Oh, a straw Man.
Not a single person here has said "nothing" is done. That's your little caricature. Every single person has said something _different_ is done.
Straw men are so obvious.

Ok, do nothing effective.

Well, they are effective so . . .

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So according to you, all the schools are the same. In minority and low performing schools, it is the low quality of the students. I see what you are saying....blaming the victim for the crime. You and Buford Pusser have a similar idea about what to do when things displease you. (reference..."walking tall."}

And you're blaming the mirror for the image in it.

To a very large extent schools are a reflection of the students in them.

 

[maxparrish]

This has been explained why those who actually work in these situations know that this is not true.
People who have DONE THIS without violence.

Can you please present what in your background makes you feel that people who have successfully solved these situations without violence cannot possibly have done so? Can you explain why you should be believed when you claim this versus thoase who have said why they know it works?

I reference an earlier post of this question in post 281

where I ask you:

My background is irrelevant. It is a matter of pure logic. If a person refuses to do something, you can issue all the paper slips with new orders that you like. At some point, in the face of continued refusal, force is usually the only option - the ONLY leverage (other than denying her breakfast and lunch in the cafeteria) is force or the credible threat of force.

But as you repeatedly ask for my background I will relent. My wife and I raised her daughter. My wife was a elementary and high school teacher for 15 years, and spent the next 15 years as a special ed teacher and (later) supervisor of special ed teachers. In the last year and half (before retirement due to failing health) I was a school aid for special ed, and participated in her teacher-classroom meetings and paperwork on students.

Finally, my best friend and his girl friend raised 5 adopted children, three of whom were defiant destructive monsters - one requiring over 100 police dispatches (and occasionally handcuffing and taking to mental health incarceration).

I have also seen what happened to my sister's child, raised with an overwhelming fear of making or enforcing rules of behavior; as an adult he turned out as expected - an immature, unsocialized, and a wimpish narcissist.

My wife was one of the rare teachers who could get even the most troublesome children to obey. She taught me many things about children, including what teachers get wrong. Her rules were simple: give them the expected consequences for not following the rules, and ALWAYS follow through. Never get down to their level and argue, or 'negotiate' punishment, or let them off because they beg for an exception.

She taught in mostly inner city schools, mostly to black children. Once they understood that pleading was not acceptable (and likely to raise her ire), would not argue with them, and that she always followed through punishment she became one of the most loved teachers in her school - years later we received affectionate letters from former students who thanked her.

I am very aware that there are many methods of getting compliance, and have been in several classrooms where the teacher has serious authority. On the other hand, I have also seen or heard of classes where the "special ed" students (the emotionally troubled sections) are in chaos...with students throwing desks and the teacher being little more than a hands off zoo keeper.

Yet, in my wife's last elementary school, in spite of an excellent teaching staff (mostly african American teachers) there was always several times a year that the police had to be called. And even my wife had a knife put to her throat and threatened with death by a defiant 15 year old student.

So yes...sometimes force is needed - not every child or school is from "Leave it to Beaver" or "The Brady Bunch".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So according to you, all the schools are the same. In minority and low performing schools, it is the low quality of the students. I see what you are saying....blaming the victim for the crime. You and Buford Pusser have a similar idea about what to do when things displease you. (reference..."walking tall."}

And you're blaming the mirror for the image in it.

To a very large extent schools are a reflection of the students in them.

What does that have to do with a student who was texting? At no point did they commit any act that warranted an assault on them. The escalation was mainly on the school's part, the teacher and the officer.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Oh, a straw Man.
Not a single person here has said "nothing" is done. That's your little caricature. Every single person has said something _different_ is done.
Straw men are so obvious.

Ok, do nothing effective.

wrong again.


No one said to do nothing effective. The whole point of the suggestions made is that They have been effective.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ok, do nothing effective.

wrong again.

No one said to do nothing effective. The whole point of the suggestions made is that They have been effective.

Loren is right. Virtually all schools are lawless because there is no staff that beats the fuck out of people who commit minor infractions. Absolute lawlessness! This is why gun violence is so prevalent. Because they are animals!

 

[AthenaAwakened]

This has been explained why those who actually work in these situations know that this is not true.
People who have DONE THIS without violence.

Can you please present what in your background makes you feel that people who have successfully solved these situations without violence cannot possibly have done so? Can you explain why you should be believed when you claim this versus thoase who have said why they know it works?

I reference an earlier post of this question in post 281

where I ask you:

My background is irrelevant. It is a matter of pure logic. If a person refuses to do something, you can issue all the paper slips with new orders that you like. At some point, in the face of continued refusal, force is usually the only option - the ONLY leverage (other than denying her breakfast and lunch in the cafeteria) is force or the credible threat of force.

But as you repeatedly ask for my background I will relent. My wife and I raised her daughter. My wife was a elementary and high school teacher for 15 years, and spent the next 15 years as a special ed teacher and (later) supervisor of special ed teachers. In the last year and half (before retirement due to failing health) I was a school aid for special ed, and participated in her teacher-classroom meetings and paperwork on students.

Finally, my best friend and his girl friend raised 5 adopted children, three of whom were defiant destructive monsters - one requiring over 100 police dispatches (and occasionally handcuffing and taking to mental health incarceration).

I have also seen what happened to my sister's child, raised with an overwhelming fear of making or enforcing rules of behavior; as an adult he turned out as expected - an immature, unsocialized, and a wimpish narcissist.

My wife was one of the rare teachers who could get even the most troublesome children to obey. She taught me many things about children, including what teachers get wrong. Her rules were simple: give them the expected consequences for not following the rules, and ALWAYS follow through. Never get down to their level and argue, or 'negotiate' punishment, or let them off because they beg for an exception.

She taught in mostly inner city schools, mostly to black children. Once they understood that pleading was not acceptable (and likely to raise her ire), would not argue with them, and that she always followed through punishment she became one of the most loved teachers in her school - years later we received affectionate letters from former students who thanked her.

I am very aware that there are many methods of getting compliance, and have been in several classrooms where the teacher has serious authority. On the other hand, I have also seen or heard of classes where the "special ed" students (the emotionally troubled sections) are in chaos...with students throwing desks and the teacher being little more than a hands off zoo keeper.

Yet, in my wife's last elementary school, in spite of an excellent teaching staff (mostly african American teachers) there was always several times a year that the police had to be called. And even my wife had a knife put to her throat and threatened with death by a defiant 15 year old student.

So yes...sometimes force is needed - not every child or school is from "Leave it to Beaver" or "The Brady Bunch".

so it is fine with you and your wife to throw a girl mourning the loss of her mother across a room?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

so it is fine with you and your wife to throw a girl mourning the loss of her mother across a room?

Well, one student pulled a knife. That means that other students who are quietly sitting there texting on a cellphone are equally dangerous.

Personally, I would have just firebombed the school. Sure, there'd be a bit of collateral damage amongst the other students and teachers, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

so it is fine with you and your wife to throw a girl mourning the loss of her mother across a room?

Well, one student pulled a knife. That means that other students who are quietly sitting there texting on a cellphone are equally dangerous.

Personally, I would have just firebombed the school. Sure, there'd be a bit of collateral damage amongst the other students and teachers, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

Well, some say that the school is a reflection of their students and if the students are being thrown around by officers, then clearly they aren't worth much, so the loss is acceptable.

 

[arkirk]

So according to you, all the schools are the same. In minority and low performing schools, it is the low quality of the students. I see what you are saying....blaming the victim for the crime. You and Buford Pusser have a similar idea about what to do when things displease you. (reference..."walking tall."}

And you're blaming the mirror for the image in it.

To a very large extent schools are a reflection of the students in them.

That is just YOUR VIEW. It ignores the great differences in quality in the school, the quality of the school staff, and in this case the quality of the security personnel. You know there is great disparity in the funding, curriculum, the nutritional quality of what the students eat, and the treatment of the students themselves. Sending a student to some of these abominable underfunded and under supported schools is a punishment in itself. Your idea of blaming the victim seems to be, according to you, applicable in all cases where there are victims. Predators generally offer your arguments.

 

[Rhea]

But as you repeatedly ask for my background I will relent.
[...]
I am very aware that there are many methods of getting compliance, and have been in several classrooms where the teacher has serious authority. On the other hand, I have also seen or heard of classes where the "special ed" students (the emotionally troubled sections) are in chaos...with students throwing desks and the teacher being little more than a hands off zoo keeper.

Yet, in my wife's last elementary school, in spite of an excellent teaching staff (mostly african American teachers) there was always several times a year that the police had to be called. And even my wife had a knife put to her throat and threatened with death by a defiant 15 year old student.

So yes...sometimes force is needed - not every child or school is from "Leave it to Beaver" or "The Brady Bunch".

Well that is quite a lot of detail and I appreciate the insight very much. Genuine thanks for sharing what forms your POV.

It's surprises me a little that you and I are not on the same page. Because I'm reading about an experience that shows non-police, non-physical discipline is quite effective and can be used in the vast majority of cases, and only in extreme cases - which do happen, but are not every case - require an actual arrest of physical interaction.

And then I thought I saw you arguing here that physical force was necessary over a cell phone text. THIS LEVEL of physical force.

To me, your experience matches my knowledge and my conclusion is different. There is no way this case was one of the ones that needed a police officer, and once called, no way he needed to act as he did.

 

[abaddon]

To me, your experience matches my knowledge and my conclusion is different. There is no way this case was one of the ones that needed a police officer, and once called, no way he needed to act as he did.

Well, see, you're talking about THIS case. You’re context-sensitive. Others are not, regardless of referencing this case to try to impress on everyone their general principle.

It’s easier to take a general principle about how to get compliance and apply it equally to everyone. This particular girl in this particular classroom in this particular incident isn’t even what they’re talking about at all. They hear about a defiant, unruly person and it conjures images of things gone wild and they respond to those images.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Max,
She was not pasive agressive. There was no agreeing to do what was asked of her and no hidden agression. I know because as an Upper Midwesterner passive agressiveness is part of our culture.

 

[laughing dog]

What school with no discipline are you talking about?

The sort of schools the leftists on here are arguing for--where nothing is done about misbehavior.

Please point to a single post here that argues that nothing is done about misbehavior. Frankly, it appears this is yet another post of yours that has no semblance to reality.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

The sort of schools the leftists on here are arguing for--where nothing is done about misbehavior.

So umm... those schools that are overrun by teenagers because officers aren't smacking them for non-violent, relatively non-disruptive behavior?

I believe some may think the movie Class of 1984 is a documentary.

 

[ZiprHead]

What school with no discipline are you talking about?

The sort of schools the leftists on here are arguing for--where nothing is done about misbehavior.

 

[scombrid]

I have also seen what happened to my sister's child, raised with an overwhelming fear of making or enforcing rules of behavior; as an adult he turned out as expected - an immature, unsocialized, and a wimpish narcissist.

Yes, this is a terrible way to raise kids and many a millennial is a worthless piece of shit because of it. But I haven't seen advocacy of such rearing technique here.

My wife was one of the rare teachers who could get even the most troublesome children to obey. She taught me many things about children, including what teachers get wrong. Her rules were simple: give them the expected consequences for not following the rules, and ALWAYS follow through. Never get down to their level and argue, or 'negotiate' punishment, or let them off because they beg for an exception.

I posted earlier in this thread that such an approach was a hallmark of the best instructors in my school days.

But this does not require violent force to achieve.

In fact, capricious or violent action by instructors or administrative staff is quite likely counter productive.

I have also seen or heard of classes where the "special ed" students (the emotionally troubled sections) are in chaos...with students throwing desks and the teacher being little more than a hands off zoo keeper.

I don't think there was any desk throwing prior to the police arriving in this case.

Yet, in my wife's last elementary school, in spite of an excellent teaching staff (mostly african American teachers) there was always several times a year that the police had to be called. And even my wife had a knife put to her throat and threatened with death by a defiant 15 year old student.

So yes...sometimes force is needed -

The force applied to the student in this case that wouldn't leave her seat is on par with that which would be necessary to deal with a violent student.

This is the problem. It is not that the student faced sanction for the modern equivalent of passing notes and then being defiant about it. It is that the sanction involved a very violent application of force for a non-violent offense.

 

[scombrid]

The sort of schools the leftists on here are arguing for--where nothing is done about misbehavior.

Maybe you can point out the posts containing such advocacy.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

The sort of schools the leftists on here are arguing for--where nothing is done about misbehavior.

Maybe you can point out the posts containing such advocacy.

Don't you guys get it?

Loren can only read the the words already in his head and only in that order.