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Split Space Travel split from Military spending vs societal benefits

To notify a split thread.
Or we could spend money on preserving humanity with space exploration instead of killing people on the battlefields for stupid reasons.
Do you think US would spend more money on space programs if it cut the military budget by half? No, more likely it would pass some version of the $3.5T Spendapalooza instead.

The US should have no worry of any bad guys because we have 2 big oceans to the east and west and benevolent neighbors to the north and south
🎵See the map they're hovering right over us
Tell you the truth it makes me kinda nervous

Always hear the same kind of story
Break your nose and they'll just say sorry
Tell me what kind of freaks are that polite
It's gotta mean they're all up to something
So quick before they see it coming
Time for a pre-emptive strike.🎶


Seriously though, there are military challenges outside the continent itself. How long would it have taken Russia/Soviet Union to take Alaska back if we did not have strong military? And Japanese attacked Hawaii in 1941. Only reason they could not invade and conquer it: our military. Challenges in the Middle East are another issue, although I am pretty sure you think we should leave the area altogether.
Space exploration in particular could provide the same amount of work programs for poor people as defense contractors do with a lot less killing going on.
Until we stumble across some space bugs.
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But again, I do not see any savings from the defense programs being used for space exploration. More likely it would go into more subsidies for special interests. Just look at the proposed B3 plan (Sinema and Manchin - real American heroes!) It was full of subsidies for having many children and tax cuts for Blue State rich. Not a dollar for NASA despite a $3.5T price tag.
But neither healthcare or space exploration will ever happen because of insane neocons such as Hillary Clinton and Lindsey Graham.
I disagree. Those who want to defund Pentagon, like the incredibly stupid Cori Bush, are not clamoring for putting more money into space exploration.
If the best idea's are to ever get done it's up to private visionaries like Musk and Besos.
I agree. There is not much appetite in Washington for expanding federally funded space exploration, regardless of whether they support military spending or want to cut it.
P.S.: It's "Bezos".
 
What the hell is space exploration going to do for us here
About the only thing it can usefully do is identify any big rocks that are headed our way, in sufficient time for us to launch a mission to make them go somewhere else instead.
Our ultimate goal needs to be the continuation of human life. The future survival of all humanity. Including space asteroids, but also bio, nuclear, and/or any other environmental extinction disasters. But to spend research and planning for such interstellar space colonization requires humanity to look out for the entire world population instead of each of us as individuals. And it also requires a vision for future unborn generations (born long after our own death) instead our selfish short term satisfaction.

Unfortunately those kind of altruistic (ant colony like) behaviors will not be found in most people. All we care about is ourselves in our own time.
 
The ultimate goal needs to be the future survival of humanity. Including space asteroids, but also bio, nuclear, and/or any other environmental extinction disasters. But to spend research and planning for such interstellar space colonization...
Colonisation of space is completely impractical.

We can't even colonise Antarctica, and you can breathe the air, and find food* locally there.

* As long as you like penguin
 
The space explorer in me is not having a good time right now. Yawl need to tone down all the space exploration hate speech or imma tell mommy!! :cry:
 
Colonisation of space is completely impractical.
I would say closer to impossible.
So said Columbus sailors who thought they would fall off the edge of the earth.

Your attitude is just a poor excuse. You can not know what is impossible when you do not know what really is impossible.
 
Colonisation of space is completely impractical.
I would say closer to impossible.
So said Columbus sailors who thought they would fall off the edge of the earth.

Your attitude is just a poor excuse. You can not know what is impossible when you do not know what really is impossible.
It's not impossible; it's not even impractical. But manned space fans all seem to have this notion that Neil Armstrong was Christopher Columbus and the moon landings should have led to space colonization. It doesn't work that way. Neil Armstrong was Leif Erikson. Europe spent 1000-1492 getting its act together. Now Earth has to get its act together. We went to the moon five hundred years too early.
 
Colonisation of space is completely impractical.
I would say closer to impossible.
So said Columbus sailors who thought they would fall off the edge of the earth.

Your attitude is just a poor excuse. You can not know what is impossible when you do not know what really is impossible.
It's not impossible; it's not even impractical. But manned space fans all seem to have this notion that Neil Armstrong was Christopher Columbus and the moon landings should have led to space colonization. It doesn't work that way. Neil Armstrong was Leif Erikson. Europe spent 1000-1492 getting its act together. Now Earth has to get its act together. We went to the moon five hundred years too early.
This analogy founders on the fact that, unlike Leif and his crew, Neil and Buzz didn't return with tales about the abundant salmon, wild grapes, and other bounty to be found on the Moon. ;)
 
Colonisation of space is completely impractical.
Right now it is impractical. But it will never become practical unless spacefaring technology is gradually developed.
I hold out more hope for the private sector to push this technology forward than the government agencies at this stage of development. I know you do not think private entities should even be allowed in space, right? At least that was your point in the "Billionaires blast off" thread.
We can't even colonise Antarctica, and you can breathe the air, and find food* locally there.
* As long as you like penguin
It's not so much that we can't as a matter of technology; it's that it would not be worth the cost and the hassle.
 
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Colonisation of space is completely impractical.
I would say closer to impossible.
I would say neither of those things is actually true. There are plenty of people in the world who are ready and willing to give up a humanoid body in exchange for a form factor that could very well operate in space, and technology is getting closer every day to allow achieving that.

As soon as you punt on demanding a human body to be part of the mix, concepts like food water and air become completely superfluous.

Will it happen in the next year? Probably not. But it will almost certainly happen in the next 5-10 years.
 
We went to the moon five hundred years too early.
It would be technologically possible to build a lunar base today. It would just be very expensive - over $100G, probably closer to $200G, even for a small one. Even if a resurrected JFK became president again, I do not think he could convince Congress to pay for it though. They are more interested in things like even more subsidies for parents and other special interest groups.

Private sector could pull it off. Musk should not have wasted his money ruining Twitter, he could have started a program to build a lunar base, say by 2035. Start small. Rent space to universities for experiments like growing crops Matt Damon style or studying effects of low g on people. Expand to a small boutique hotel for the very rich, operated by Four Seasons or Mövenpick. Or Intercontinental, but rebrand it as Interplanetary. Low-g might be more interesting than zero-g for tourism and the space tourists would experience some period of zero-g while en route, so they get both.
Eventually you can have mining for resources that can be used to build spacecraft for further exploration by taking advantage of the much more shallow gravitational well of the Moon.
 
I would say neither of those things is actually true. There are plenty of people in the world who are ready and willing to give up a humanoid body in exchange for a form factor that could very well operate in space, and technology is getting closer every day to allow achieving that.
Where would you go? Some consider space flight at faster than light speed to be impossible. To get anywhere of any use would require FTL multiplied by eleventy billion.
 
It would be technologically possible to build a lunar base today. It would just be very expensive - over $100G, probably closer to $200G, even for a small one. Even if a resurrected JFK became president again, I do not think he could convince Congress to pay for it though. They are more interested in things like even more subsidies for parents and other special interest groups.
What would you eat? I hear lunar dust is not very nutritious.
 
I would say neither of those things is actually true. There are plenty of people in the world who are ready and willing to give up a humanoid body in exchange for a form factor that could very well operate in space, and technology is getting closer every day to allow achieving that.
Where would you go? Some consider space flight at faster than light speed to be impossible. To get anywhere of any use would require FTL multiplied by eleventy billion.
Space is mostly empty. Any Legrange point near enough to a suitably sized asteroid group would work. Possibly most asteroid belts?

When your only need for gasses is as a propellant and chemical process feedstock, it matters a lot less where you are; any star that's collected enough heavy-ish metals would do.

There are tens, perhaps hundreds of suitable places in this solar system alone to just set up a solar collector and drive a GPU (or many of them; you could have cities of millions or even billions constructed with large enough compute clusters).

As it is, if my body at some point in time is just a hard drive, a battery, and a GPU boxed in radiation shielding I don't really care how long it takes me get anywhere. I may as well make a thousand copies of that and shoot them across space as Andromeda is passing by. Get bored? Pause the clock for a while. Same.goes for over clocking.

I gotta say, people tend to lack imagination when considering the kinds of flexibility and opportunities which would arise from not being bound as a "meat bag".

Oh, I want to travel across the solar system? Better point my laser transmitter towards the destination and just upload my current image to there! Oh, it's time to go back? Just send the delta on my model weights! Essentially just send my new experiences back. Oh, it's time to go back again? Again, I can send a delta.

As long as you can get a strong enough signal with good enough parity and the receive side has the means to reconstruct the agent, we do have at the very least "fast as light travel". Even if we don't have FTL.
 
Colonisation of space is completely impractical.
I would say closer to impossible.
I would say neither of those things is actually true. There are plenty of people in the world who are ready and willing to give up a humanoid body in exchange for a form factor that could very well operate in space, and technology is getting closer every day to allow achieving that.

As soon as you punt on demanding a human body to be part of the mix, concepts like food water and air become completely superfluous.

Will it happen in the next year? Probably not. But it will almost certainly happen in the next 5-10 years.
I think you're being quite optimistic in the timescale. Upload involves both computing (which probably could exist today if someone like Warren Buffet wanted it--I expect the first uploads will be of the ultra-wealthy facing terminal health problems) and the ability to understand/extract the information from the brain (and I think we are far from the latter.) There's also the problem that having the computer power for it assumes the hardware actually runs it--which means even more comprehension of how the brain works. Without that understanding we would have to emulate it--which adds a zero or two to the required computer power.
 
It would be technologically possible to build a lunar base today. It would just be very expensive - over $100G, probably closer to $200G, even for a small one. Even if a resurrected JFK became president again, I do not think he could convince Congress to pay for it though. They are more interested in things like even more subsidies for parents and other special interest groups.
What would you eat? I hear lunar dust is not very nutritious.
What do colonists always do? Grow food! Anyone who isn't pretty much locally producing food is an explorer, not a colonist.

Yeah, the lunar dust is pretty nasty stuff--but it becomes far more friendly if you microwave it. (It's still a problem keeping it from being tracked into your habitats, though.)
 
Colonisation of space is completely impractical.
I would say closer to impossible.
I would say neither of those things is actually true. There are plenty of people in the world who are ready and willing to give up a humanoid body in exchange for a form factor that could very well operate in space, and technology is getting closer every day to allow achieving that.

As soon as you punt on demanding a human body to be part of the mix, concepts like food water and air become completely superfluous.

Will it happen in the next year? Probably not. But it will almost certainly happen in the next 5-10 years.
I think you're being quite optimistic in the timescale. Upload involves both computing (which probably could exist today if someone like Warren Buffet wanted it--I expect the first uploads will be of the ultra-wealthy facing terminal health problems) and the ability to understand/extract the information from the brain (and I think we are far from the latter.) There's also the problem that having the computer power for it assumes the hardware actually runs it--which means even more comprehension of how the brain works. Without that understanding we would have to emulate it--which adds a zero or two to the required computer power.
The issue is that the compute costs less than you think it does, and the technology is closer than you think it is.

The primary hurdles at this point aren't even the scan technology but rather well understanding the platform needed.

Just this year an experiment in Australia is turning on with a computer guaranteed to meet the compute requirements using binary transistors (hella inefficient), and the technology to do high enough resolution scans happened early this year.

The purpose of the Australia experiment is specifically to emulate a whole human brain, and this is being done today. We were doing this with rat brains and fly brains only a few years ago.

The next hurdle is getting past Moore's Law's Wall (transistor size), by making non-binary computational circuits, and understanding the unification between "analog switches" and spoken language outcomes in the same way we understand binary's relationship to language.

It's kind of sad that I already know what the Australian team will find ("binary transistors require orders of magnitude more switches and thus orders of magnitude more energy to calculate a continuous scale value; a neuron can do in one switch what it takes a hundreds of transistors in a floating point arithmetic unit to accomplish"; "neurons create compact fuzzy linguistic structures on their preconditions").

In many senses, though, we don't really even need to disassemble the brain's structure to the point of understanding it all; really the bigger question is just "how do we arrange similar switches in similar ways at similar density."

I'm not going to ask you to take my word. Heck, I'm not sure the world will be able to "hold it together" for the 5-10 years we need, but I am going to have a big ass I-told-you-so ready.

Really I expect it to be more of a 2-4 year frame before the first rich fuck tries badly, a d more of 3-6 years before they succeed. After all, I said 5-10 years 3-4 years ago on AGI when the rest of you folks were screaming 20 years and 40 years, and here we are maybe a few months off; all the pieces are here for that, even if some posters here really want to bury their head in the sand.

Pretty much if you think it's "10-20 years off" it's either impossible and it won't happen at all, or it's actually more like 5-10 because Moore's law says your "learned pace" is too slow.
 
As it is, if my body at some point in time is just a hard drive, a battery, and a GPU boxed in radiation shielding I don't really care how long it takes me get anywhere. I may as well make a thousand copies of that and shoot them across space as Andromeda is passing by. Get bored? Pause the clock for a while. Same.goes for over clocking.
You really think that is some sort of a life? My guess is anyone that actually does this would be driven insane within six months.
 
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