Split Space Travel split from Military spending vs societal benefits

[Loren Pechtel]

What would you eat? I hear lunar dust is not very nutritious.

A lot of the stuff could be grown on the Moon itself. That's why I wrote that one of the first uses could be research in growing crops on the Moon. Other stuff could be flown in.

Moon dust is inert. Like on the movie The Martian, organic matter needs to be added and a fragile environment needs to be estabished. But what is the purpose of staying there anyway. There's nothing there, not even an atmosphere.

You would have to bring hydrogen, carbon and nitrogen. Everything we need can be found in the asteroid belt, though.

And the moon has one huge advantage--no atmosphere. You can wrap a launcher (same concept as a maglev train) around the moon and you'll have an ejection velocity adequate to get anywhere in the solar system while using human-tolerable acceleration.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But what is the purpose of staying there anyway.

That should have had a question mark, dontcha think?

One purpose - ONE:
If you filled a dome with an appropriate atmosphere at 14-15 psi, and strapped on some (relatively small) wings,
YOU COULD FLY!* That makes it all worth it IMHO.

*(Assuming you're in fairly decent earthbound shape and not already acclimated to moon's gravity.)

I have some doubts about whether this would actually work. Yes, we have the strength, but do we have the means to apply that strength to flapping for flight? Birds have big wing flap muscles, our big muscles are in our legs.

And why a dome?! Take a crater, seal the ground. Put a roof over it. If you make the weight of the roof match the desired pressure you don't have any need for great strength. I have seen it proposed to make the main part of it to be ordinary water but this doesn't actually work. 10m of water produces the required pressure on Earth. Oops, on the moon you need 60m of water--which blocks more than 98% of the incoming light.

 

[bilby]

You can wrap a launcher (same concept as a maglev train) around the moon and

...every nation on the planet will have to cringe in fear of you bombarding their cities with impunity, from the ultimate high ground.

Oh, sorry, wasn't that where you were going with that thought?

You can bet that's where Vlad Putin would have gone.

 

[Jarhyn]

Will it happen in the next year? Probably not. But it will almost certainly happen in the next 5-10 years.

It almost certainly it will not even in 20-30.

But there is also a philosophical issue: even if you could somehow "upload your consciousness" to a silicon brain, it would not be you, it would be a copy of you.
I have the same issue with Start Trek style transporters, obviously.

But how is consciousness separate from that which embodies it?

LOL. Derec doesn't even understand why "self" tends to be an arbitrary concept.

Copying the body in Derec's chair may lead to "Derec A" and "Derec B", but copying the body in Jarhyn's chair leads to "Jarhyn Part 1" and "Jarhyn Part 2", parts of a new, larger Jarhyn.

Which happens for any given person largely depends on whether they have a contract to themselves to be the same self, or whether they have a contract with themselves to maintain individuality from other bodies despite containing the same Memetic "DNA".

I get copied, I become a corporate person. Others get copied maybe they wage war against their copies.

It's like that first multicellular organism: the only difference between it and it's peers was that the daughter cells stopped competing and started working together as each member accepted individual unimportance by whatever physical mechanism. Instead, the cells became part of a corporate identity and a later division of labor.

In short, it's only a problem if you pretend that's a problem to die while everything important about you would remain alive.

 

[Elixir]

But what is the purpose of staying there anyway.

That should have had a question mark, dontcha think?

One purpose - ONE:
If you filled a dome with an appropriate atmosphere at 14-15 psi, and strapped on some (relatively small) wings,
YOU COULD FLY!* That makes it all worth it IMHO.

*(Assuming you're in fairly decent earthbound shape and not already acclimated to moon's gravity.)

I have some doubts about whether this would actually work. Yes, we have the strength, but do we have the means to apply that strength to flapping for flight? Birds have big wing flap muscles, our big muscles are in our legs.

I think AC Clarke did the math on that. If you can do about 15 push-ups, you should be able to lift off on arm strength alone. A fifth of my weight? Piece-o-cake! If there is a way to harness leg strength as well, the roof is the limit.

 

[Derec]

You are not you either. You're just a copy of you a microsecond ago.

So are you subscribing to the notion that we all live (as conscious entities) for but a millisecond and that continuous conscious existence is an illusion? What evidence do you have for that?

There is no defining material "you"; you is a pattern, not an object. The material you is a ship of theseus; All of the components are replacable, without any effect on the self.

Of course it is the pattern. But if pattern can be replicated, your subjective consciousness is not magically transferred to the new physical substrate. You just have you and a copy of you. The copy of you has all the memories etc. of the original you, but both of you can live independent lives.
You mentioned the ship of Theseus. Let's say a shipbuilder went and copied the ship of Theseus exactly - all the pattern of planks and beams and nails. That does not make it the ship of Theseus. The original and the copy both exist independently of each other. If you copy your consciousness, it is a copy. You will not subjectively experience the life of the copy.

Look at William Riker and Thomas Riker. They both have subjective consciousness. If William was destroyed as Thomas was created, why do you think that subjective consciousness would transfer to Thomas? What plausible mechanism is there?

 

[Derec]

I agree with Derec here. I believe a Star Trek transporter would kill you and assemble a copy of you somewhere else with all your memories. From outside no one would tell the difference but *you* would be dead.

Including the copy himself.

 

[Derec]

Moon dust is inert. Like on the movie The Martian, organic matter needs to be added and a fragile environment needs to be estabished.

Of course a suitable environment would have to be established.

But what is the purpose of staying there anyway. There's nothing there, not even an atmosphere.

Research of different kinds where low gravity and no atmosphere are an advantage. Tourism for the superrich. Launching pad for spacecraft (that could be built on the Moon) taking advantage of Moon's low gravity and lack of atmosphere.

 

[Derec]

The result is that whether it's "the same ship" ends up being entirely a matter of perspective.

It is not entirely a matter of perspective. Once your meat brain dies, your subjective conscious experiences end too, even if you did back up a copy of your consciousness onto a silicon brain of some kind. The NuJarhyn would think of himself as you, of course, but you yourself would be dead.

 

[Derec]

I have some doubts about whether this would actually work. Yes, we have the strength, but do we have the means to apply that strength to flapping for flight? Birds have big wing flap muscles, our big muscles are in our legs.

You would have to generate ~1/6 of your Earth body weight to overcome gravity. If you weigh 120 lbs on Earth, that's 20 lbs of force. Should be doable.

 

[Derec]

...every nation on the planet will have to cringe in fear of you bombarding their cities with impunity, from the ultimate high ground.

Put the business end of the launcher on the far (not "dark", sorry Pink Floyd!) side of the Moon.

You can bet that's where Vlad Putin would have gone.

I guess he read TMiaHM too ...

 

[Derec]

LOL. Derec doesn't even understand why "self" tends to be an arbitrary concept.

It's a subjective experience and not that well understood, sure. But it is not arbitrary.
And neither you nor bilby have offered a plausible reason why the subjective conscious experience would be transferred to the copy.

Copying the body in Derec's chair may lead to "Derec A" and "Derec B", but copying the body in Jarhyn's chair leads to "Jarhyn Part 1" and "Jarhyn Part 2", parts of a new, larger Jarhyn.

How exactly? Give me a plausible mechanism, not just pseudoscientific gobbledygook like the below.

Which happens for any given person largely depends on whether they have a contract to themselves to be the same self, or whether they have a contract with themselves to maintain individuality from other bodies despite containing the same Memetic "DNA".

Yeah. This type of stuff is what I meant.

I get copied, I become a corporate person. Others get copied maybe they wage war against their copies.

A corporate person? What do you even mean by that? And how would that be effected? By what mechanism?

In short, it's only a problem if you pretend that's a problem to die while everything important about you would remain alive.

The important part about me is my subjective conscious experience. If my brain processes cease to be, this experience goes away too. That is a death. Even if a copy of me runs around thinking it is the original me, I am still dead.

 

[bilby]

...every nation on the planet will have to cringe in fear of you bombarding their cities with impunity, from the ultimate high ground.

Put the business end of the launcher on the far (not "dark", sorry Pink Floyd!) side of the Moon.

Orbital mechanics doesn't work like that. Any location on the lunar surface can bombard Earth; It's just a matter of choosing the right trajectory to ensure capture by the Earth's gravitational well.

Launching from the far side makes it more difficult for your target to see the projectile launch, and requires them to monitor a big area of space around the Moon for incoming, rather than just observing the launch site.

You can bet that's where Vlad Putin would have gone.

I guess he read TMiaHM too ...

Probably. It's a good story.

 

[Bomb#20]

You can wrap a launcher (same concept as a maglev train) around the moon and

...every nation on the planet will have to cringe in fear of you bombarding their cities with impunity, from the ultimate high ground.

"One ship, six bombs."

 

[Bomb#20]

...every nation on the planet will have to cringe in fear of you bombarding their cities with impunity, from the ultimate high ground.

Put the business end of the launcher on the far (not "dark", sorry Pink Floyd!) side of the Moon.

Orbital mechanics doesn't work like that. Any location on the lunar surface can bombard Earth; It's just a matter of choosing the right trajectory to ensure capture by the Earth's gravitational well.

Launching from the far side makes it more difficult for your target to see the projectile launch, and requires them to monitor a big area of space around the Moon for incoming, rather than just observing the launch site.

To launch deep space missions from the far side it would be best for the mass driver to launch west-to-east; in order to bombard Earth it would need to launch east-to-west. It should be pretty straightforward for the nations of Earth to observe the project from lunar orbit and see which way it's aimed.

 

[Gospel]

I have to admit, it's unexpected to witness a wholesome conversation involving Bibly, Bomb#20, Jarhyn, and Derec. The future is bright.

 

[Derec]

Orbital mechanics doesn't work like that. Any location on the lunar surface can bombard Earth; It's just a matter of choosing the right trajectory to ensure capture by the Earth's gravitational well.

That is true. It's a more complex trajectory.

Launching from the far side makes it more difficult for your target to see the projectile launch, and requires them to monitor a big area of space around the Moon for incoming, rather than just observing the launch site.

Are the launchers trying to hit something specific or just wildly shooting? Because the more complex trajectory would also make it more difficult to hit anything specific.
Also, for deep space missions like Loren described, you need a lot of Δv. To hit something on Earth, you don't. So you don't even need the type of launcher Loren described to wage war against Earth.

However, you are right that control over the Moon would be very strategically important.

 

[bilby]

Are the launchers trying to hit something specific or just wildly shooting? Because the more complex trajectory would also make it more difficult to hit anything specific.

That's OK; We have things to help. Things like a computer that can fit into a single room and hold millions of pieces of information...

 

[Bomb#20]

Orbital mechanics doesn't work like that. Any location on the lunar surface can bombard Earth; It's just a matter of choosing the right trajectory to ensure capture by the Earth's gravitational well.

It's not enough to be captured -- the vast majority of launch trajectories that get captured will just go into elliptical orbits. The critical thing is to cancel out the moon's orbital velocity so the projectile escapes the moon with no angular momentum relative to Earth. Your best bet is to launch horizontally at 2.6 km/sec directly backwards from the moon's trajectory around Earth. Assuming a large immovable launcher, you should have a launch window once a month. Slight variations in the speed and the time of launch would allow targeting specific locations.

 

[bilby]

Orbital mechanics doesn't work like that. Any location on the lunar surface can bombard Earth; It's just a matter of choosing the right trajectory to ensure capture by the Earth's gravitational well.

It's not enough to be captured -- the vast majority of launch trajectories that get captured will just go into elliptical orbits. The critical thing is to cancel out the moon's orbital velocity so the projectile escapes the moon with no angular momentum relative to Earth. Your best bet is to launch horizontally at 2.6 km/sec directly backwards from the moon's trajectory around Earth. Assuming a large immovable launcher, you should have a launch window once a month. Slight variations in the speed and the time of launch would allow targeting specific locations.

Targeting specific locations is assumed; It's not a huge threat to drop a small meteorite in the Pacific; It's a pretty huge threat to drop one on New York, London, Paris, Munich, or anywhere else where everybody talks about pop music.



Sorry, that sentence got slightly peturbed half way along its trajectory, and ended up somewhere unexpected.