Спасибо, Россия!

[Jokodo]

Jokodo,
"Russia" was not, is not, and never has been acephalous. As a comparison, in the same period, "We defeated Germany" and "We defeated Hitler" were synonymous.

And? How does this imply that we cannot, should not, need not, pay reverence to the sacrifices of the Russian people? That we can't do so while at the same time condemning Stalin? There seems to be a crucial leap in your logic.

 

[Perspicuo]

Speaking of crucial leap in logic is attributing a position to another one that s/he has not defended. Given that I wrote, "I understand what you mean, but... historical context please", your "How does this imply that we cannot, should not, need not, pay reverence to the sacrifices of the Russian people?" is nothing other than a strawman.

This is not street soccer. You don't have to "win". The important aspect of these discussions is the discussions themselves, that we share information and POVs.

 

[Jokodo]

Speaking of crucial leap in logic is attributing a position to another one that s/he has not defended. Given that I wrote, "I understand what you mean, but... historical context please", your "How does this imply that we cannot, should not, need not, pay reverence to the sacrifices of the Russian people?" is nothing other than a strawman.

This is not street soccer. You don't have to "win". The important aspect of these discussions is the discussions themselves, that we share information and POVs.

You did demand "historical context please" in post #19, in reply to me saying that "25 million dead is a sacrifice of quite another magnitude than 25 million doing overtime in war-related industries", as if them being not-Stalins being sent to death by Stalin made their deaths somehow less real. And this was long after I stated, in post #7, that "I'm convinced that he's (=Stalin) one of the worst figures in recent history. I even believe that his doctrines are partly to blame for Hitler coming to power in the first place." That's our context right there.

As for attributing a position to someone that person hasn't defended, am I really to believe that you didn't attribute a pro-Stalinist position to me?

 

[Turambar]

While it is true that the Western media does not mention nor honor the enormous Russian contribution to the Allied victory, I think, as many here have already pointed out, that the material contribution of the West to the Russian cause was crucial. Soldiers do not fight if they do not eat. As someone once said: World War II was won by SPAM (the famous American brand of canned meat which the soldiers used to carry)

Also, the huge numbers of deaths on the Eastern European front are to me a sign of the disregard for human lives that the Russian leaders (in particular Stalin) had. I am sure that had the same Russian force been entirely under the command of Western generals, the losses would not have been as many. Churchill was determined to win, but Stalin was desperate to win.

Jokodo: I also think you forgot about that other big power at the other side of the globe that was as dangerous and powerful as Nazi Germany: Imperial Japan. The American contribution to the victory over the Japanese Empire was enormous, and comparable to the Russian share on the European front. May I remind you that the Russian western advance, as painful and horrendous as it was in terms of human lives, would have certainly been impossible with another military power taking over the Russian eastern territories.

I think the problem is a psychological and racist one: After the brutal confrontation that was WWII, the European powers that came out victors (in the west in particular) had little problem admitting that they had faced a formidable enemy in the Germans: After all, they were white people, turned evil by a fanatical cult and a magnetic leader. The Japanese on the other hand, were Asians. Remember that until then, the Western powers had mostly held the upper hand for about 2 or 3 centuries against any non-European power. Admitting that the Japanese were as tough a nut to crack as the Germans could be seen as an affront to the Western ego.

Remember that heroic British battleship Prince of Wales that helped sank the mighty Bismarck after days of pursuit and naval manoeuvring? Well, it was no match for a Japanese fleet and was sank shortly after getting the German battleship. I can only imagine those proud English salesmen thinking "WTF" after their ship started sinking not at the hands of tall and proud Germans, but rather at the hands of short and humble Japanese.

 

[skepticalbip]

This seems to be a tempest in a tea pot. All nations write history from their perspective. A reading of Russian accounts of the war will give the impression that the other allies only played a small role with little to no mention of the North Africa campaign, the D-Day invasion and push through France, the push up the Italian peninsula, the sea battles, etc. A reading of British accounts will give the impression that they carried the brunt of the war although they do give significant credit to the US for helping them and some credit to Russians. A reading of US accounts will give the impression that they were the primary forces facing Germany with some credit to the Brits and Russians. Of course, all these only give passing mention of the French but a reading of the French accounts would give the impression that it was the French Resistance forces that turned the tide of the war.

 

[barbos]

skepticalbip, you forgot german account

 

[bilby]

skepticalbip, you forgot german account

"I was never a Nazi, and nor were any of my family or friends".