angelo
Deleted
Wouldn't be a bad job would it! Hell, I'd take a pay cut!
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Sweden, Finland, and Ukraine joining NATO?
- Thread starter lpetrich
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tupac chopra
Veteran Member
It's true that there are Russian propagandists out there. Someone with an IP address linked to the Whitehouse told us so.
US govt caught editing Wikipedia profiles to spread propaganda
US govt caught editing Wikipedia profiles to spread propaganda
barbos
Contributor
Well, vandalizing wikipedia is not as bad as training and funding death squads in Salvador.
Davka
Senior Member
tu quoque is a childish fallacy.
angelo
Deleted
All depends on who they are trained to eliminate.
barbos
Contributor
tu quoque you too!
Axulus
Veteran Member
Which is not as bad as Stalin's purges or the funding and support of the massacres in Afganistan (if you want something more recent)
barbos
Contributor
You are comparing US system to Stalin? very low standard in my view.
Russian occupation of Afganistan was not much worse than American ones.
Death squads were funded by drug money (from sale in US)
And if you ask me they were definitely worse than Afganistan.
Axulus
Veteran Member
The question is what does any of this past cold war history have to do with today? It's childish - like discussing Germany and then saying "the Germans supported Nazism" as if it was a meaningful point.
Are you at least willing to admit Russia's past crimes and failings? You seem blinded by nationalism and you often seem to explain major geopolitical events in the world on a conspiratorial anti-US basis regardless of the quality of the evidence of such. Not a sign of a rational freethinker.
You've been a member of this board for quite awhile, so you more than anyone else should know how critical members of this board are of the United States' foreign actions. So stop bringing up red herrings if you want to be taken seriously.
barbos
Contributor
Well, germans don't support it anymore and they had denazification.
Of course I do.
Me? that's a first time somebody accused me of that. I am not big fan of much of anything russian.
And was accused of lack of patriotism or worse many times.
I merely see what I see, and report as I see it. And I am very disappointed in US actions.
Really? then why are you so united against Russia?
Even democrats and republicans are united.
There is this country called Saudi Arabia, they are friends of US. Russia - not so much.
So give me a fucking break.
You call it a red herring I call it examples of hypocrisy.
You mentioned conspiratorial anti-US basis, but what do you you expect when it turns out that US government funded death squads in Salvador and other central America Countries with drug money?
Your beloved Ronald Reagan.
Axulus
Veteran Member
I'm going to ignore your red herrings and stick to this.
Do you agree that Russia and President Vladimir Putin have violated international norms, greatly contributed to bitter conflict, upset the regional order, united Ukraine strongly against Russia, and disturbed his European neighbors? If not, which part do you disagree with and why?
I don't give a fuck if you think US has done any of these in the past (or worse).
angelo
Deleted
Could it be that Putin is nervous about the US and Nato meddling on it's doorstep? Nato originally was created as a united block against the Soviet Union.
Axulus
Veteran Member
Ukraine wasn't joining NATO any time soon - Putin's actions in Russia are pushing Ukraine and the rest of Europe into it. There was very little US meddling in Ukraine before Russia decided to intervene.
barbos
Contributor
This is very simplistic and loaded question.
US/EU are as guilty as Russia
Ford
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Let's see if I can approximate barbos' likely answers...
Do you agree that Russia and President Vladimir Putin have violated international norms
What about US and NATO violating international norms by overthrowing Ukraine with Nazi coup?!
greatly contributed to bitter conflict
Western media propaganda and lies! Why not talk about how US has caused conflict?
united Ukraine strongly against Russia
What about dreams of freedom for Russian Ukrainians that US and NATO have crushed with Nazi coup in Ukraine?
and disturbed his European neighbors?
Europe is puppet of US propaganda and lies! Putin wants peace for all, and freedom from Western meddling in
Edit: Looks like I was beaten to the punch.
Ford
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Axulus
Veteran Member
It is not a loaded question. This is how most of the world views recent Russian actions, and I would argue it is an accurate assessment. Whatever you think the US/EU are guilty of in the conflict, if Russia engaged in the same tactics (funneled money and support to pro-Russian parties and sentiments, or whatever), then there would be little complaint and worry about Russia at the moment.
tupac chopra
Veteran Member
Nowhere near as much as the USA and in the case of Crimea they did what America did in Kosovo. Somehow it's ok for the USA to do it but not Russia.
No they have not greatly contributed to regional conflict. They have done everything they could to keep the Ukrainian situation more peaceful and lessen deaths.
No. The USA upset the regional order in Ukraine.
Ukraine is not united. Are you insane? Even the western parts of Ukraine are a chaotic mess. Have you any idea what is going on there?,
America is the one who interfered by sponsoring the violent racist coup in Kiev.
Exactly, and that is the problem. Too many Americans just don't give a fuck how many people their tax money kills.
barbos
Contributor
That may be true (which it is not) but it does not change the state of mind of Putin in any way.
You need to look at events in broader context.
2008 Georgia, US missile defense in Poland which nobody was buying was against Iranian nukes.
All these events were justifiably interpreted as hostile toward Russia. NATO was moving into Ukraine and Russia were quite clear that it did not like that at all, NATO proclamations that it was none of your business are not exactly reassuring in NATO's good intentions. It is Russia's business because Russia is a large part of the Europe which you can't ignore and which has its security concerns too.
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angelo
Deleted
The problem is that there are well over 10 million ethnic Russians in the Ukraine. The city of Sevastopol for example is up to 80% Russian populated. What is Russia to do about these significant minorities that want to remain Russian?