Sweden, Finland, and Ukraine joining NATO?

[barbos]

This is very simplistic and loaded question.
US/EU are as guilty as Russia

It is not a loaded question. This is how most of the world views recent Russian actions, and I would argue it is an accurate assessment. Whatever you think the US/EU are guilty of in the conflict, if Russia engaged in the same tactics (funneled money and support to pro-Russian parties and sentiments, or whatever), then there would be little complaint and worry about Russia at the moment.

What are you talking about?
US sponsored a violent coup, and Russia merely organized a referendum
If Russia were US, Crimea would never ended up under Ukrainian control in the first place.
The only reason why Crimea was in Ukraine is because Eltsin was a fucking alcoholic.
And Ukraine is nowhere as united as you think, but Russia is. As I have said before, even opposition which hates Putin agrees that Crimea stays with Russia and it is ridiculous to think otherwise. As for ordinary folk, you can blame propaganda all you want but they support it too.
In Ukraine their government/parliament is mighty mad about banning everything in Russian or from Russia, whereas ordinary folk say "Why?!" Last round was about one of the TV channels which on a New Year aired few popular russian ukrainians singers (from Russia) who were banned earlier from entering Ukraine for their support of Crimea "annexation". TV channel execs said we show what people want to see. Ukrainian parliament united, ukrainians - still quite a bit less.
When Crimean "annexation" was happening, Turchinov replaced head of the Ukrainian Navy with a "trusted" man, that "trusted" man switched side the next day! He is now in Russian Navy. You say united. Of course Ukrainian Navy existed merely on paper and this switch was merely his way to get an actual job you know with actual ships and stuff

Putin may be thinking that this maidan regime would not last very long and he might as well be right.

 

[barbos]

The problem is that there are well over 10 million ethnic Russians in the Ukraine. The city of Sevastopol for example is up to 80% Russian populated. What is Russia to do about these significant minorities that want to remain Russian?

Right now nothing

 

[Axulus]

The problem is that there are well over 10 million ethnic Russians in the Ukraine. The city of Sevastopol for example is up to 80% Russian populated. What is Russia to do about these significant minorities that want to remain Russian?

So if they don't want to live in Ukraine anymore, why on Earth don't they move to Russia? If Russia wants them so badly, pay for their relocation and then put pressure on Ukraine to treat whomever remains well. Far cheaper than the losses they are suffering under sanctions. And why the Fuck does Russia care that they share a more recent common ancestor with those individuals than the Ukranians? How about fucking taking care of the poorest of the Russians currently living in their own country, who live in squalor conditions? No, this has nothing to do with actually helping the ethnic Russians. It's all about dick stroking and asserting national "power".

 

[Axulus]

Nowhere near as much as the USA and in the case of Crimea they did what America did in Kosovo. Somehow it's ok for the USA to do it but not Russia.

barbos, is this your sock puppet alt? You two somehow can't seem to abandon the irrelevant red herrings. And we all see your arguments for the joke that they are.

No they have not greatly contributed to regional conflict. They have done everything they could to keep the Ukrainian situation more peaceful and lessen deaths.

You've seriously got to be joking? Ukraine was trying to sort out it's own internal affairs until Russia decided to come marching in and issue veiled threats and ram a referendum down their throats.

No. The USA upset the regional order in Ukraine.

Dictionary time: the region consists of more than just Ukraine.

Ukraine is not united. Are you insane? Even the western parts of Ukraine are a chaotic mess. Have you any idea what is going on there?

Apparently you are completely clueless on how united Ukraine is against Russia. Even the Russian speakers are turning against Russia:

The opposition to Russia’s actions is seen across all regions – 78 percent in the east, 89 percent in the south, 93 percent in central Ukraine and 99 percent in the west. It also transcends language. Seventy-nine percent of Russian speakers and 95 percent of Ukrainian speakers oppose the Russian actions.

http://www.iri.org/sites/default/fi...sidents of Ukraine, September 12-25, 2014.pdf

America is the one who interfered by sponsoring the violent racist coup in Kiev.

And I assume you have proof of your crazy accusations?

 

[barbos]

The problem is that there are well over 10 million ethnic Russians in the Ukraine. The city of Sevastopol for example is up to 80% Russian populated. What is Russia to do about these significant minorities that want to remain Russian?

So if they don't want to live in Ukraine anymore, why on Earth don't they move to Russia? If Russia wants them so badly, pay for their relocation and then put pressure on Ukraine to treat whomever remains well. Far cheaper than the losses they are suffering under sanctions. And why the Fuck does Russia care that they share a more recent common ancestor with those individuals than the Ukranians? How about fucking taking care of the poorest of the Russians currently living in their own country, who live in squalor conditions? No, this has nothing to do with actually helping the ethnic Russians. It's all about dick stroking and asserting national "power".

Now apply this logic to Kosovo.

And you are aware that ~20 years ago Crimea was part of Russia?
recent ancestors my ass.

 

[Axulus]

That may be true (which it is not) but it does not change the state of mind of Putin in any way.
You need to look at events in broader context.
2008 Georgia, US missile defense in Poland which nobody was buying was against Iranian nukes.

And Russia opposes countries setting up defense why, exactly? It's not like Russia is in any possible danger of an invasion by anyone. So what the fuck is going on exactly?

All these events were justifiably interpreted as hostile toward Russia.

Setting up precautionary defenses against a country that has a track record of aggression is not in and of itself an aggressive move. A philosophy of better safe than sorry is actually a very prudent course of action.

NATO was moving into Ukraine and Russia were quite clear that it did not like that at all, NATO proclamations that it was none of your business are not exactly reassuring in NATO's good intentions.

NATO was nowhere close to inviting Ukraine to join. The US quite frankly doesn't need Ukraine in NATO, it's more of a hindrance and a downgrade to regional stability than anything. And in all honestly, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the US denies Ukrainian application to NATO. It's actually in our interests to keep Ukraine out of NATO. A complete drain on our resources for almost zero gain, and we also have no credible commitment to defend Ukrainian from Russian aggression. Letting Ukraine into NATO and then not coming to their aid in a time of need (should it arise) will be the downfall of NATO.

It is Russia's business because Russia is a large part of the Europe which you can't ignore and which has its security concerns too.

What kind of security concerns? Russia still has enough nukes to send civilization back to the stone age. Russian borders have not been in any sort danger of being changed since the cold war ended. Their borders were more than secure. The only thing that has happened is an increase in the amount of territory they control - a clear sign of who the aggressor and bully is in the conflict.

 

[barbos]

And Russia opposes countries setting up defense why, exactly? It's not like Russia is in any possible danger of an invasion by anyone. So what the fuck is going on exactly?

Surprisingly yes, there is a shitload of treaties and agreements about ballistic missile defenses
And US/Poland do the same, they opposed possible short range missiles in Kalinigrad.
So why Poland can do that and Russia can't? what is so fucking special about Poland?
tell me?

All these events were justifiably interpreted as hostile toward Russia.

Setting up precautionary defenses against a country that has a track record of aggression is not in and of itself an aggressive move. A philosophy of better safe than sorry is actually a very prudent course of action.

What track record that is?
When was the last time Russia attacked US?

NATO was moving into Ukraine and Russia were quite clear that it did not like that at all, NATO proclamations that it was none of your business are not exactly reassuring in NATO's good intentions.

NATO was nowhere close to inviting Ukraine to join.

Bullshit.

The US quite frankly doesn't need Ukraine in NATO, it's more of a hindrance and a downgrade to regional stability

than anything. And in all honestly, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the US denies Ukrainian application to NATO.

That's not good enough.

It's actually in our interests to keep Ukraine out of NATO. A complete drain on our resources for almost zero gain,

Well, go tell that to NATO.

and we also have no credible commitment to defend Ukrainian from Russian aggression. Letting Ukraine into NATO and then not coming to their aid in a time of need (should it arise) will be the downfall of NATO.

It is Russia's business because Russia is a large part of the Europe which you can't ignore and which has its security concerns too.

What kind of security concerns? Russia still has enough nukes to send civilization back to the stone age.

Actually, this may not be entirely true. Or will not be true in the future. US could be close to negating russian nukes moreless.

Russian borders have not been in any sort danger of being changed since the cold war ended. Their borders were more than secure. The only thing that has happened is an increase in the amount of territory they control - a clear sign of who the aggressor and bully is in the conflict.

Yes, it's clear.
Russia (SU) lost territory since Cold War ended. And NATO gained. it's clear who aggressor is.

 

[Axulus]

So if they don't want to live in Ukraine anymore, why on Earth don't they move to Russia? If Russia wants them so badly, pay for their relocation and then put pressure on Ukraine to treat whomever remains well. Far cheaper than the losses they are suffering under sanctions. And why the Fuck does Russia care that they share a more recent common ancestor with those individuals than the Ukranians? How about fucking taking care of the poorest of the Russians currently living in their own country, who live in squalor conditions? No, this has nothing to do with actually helping the ethnic Russians. It's all about dick stroking and asserting national "power".

Now apply this logic to Kosovo.

And you are aware that ~20 years ago Crimea was part of Russia?
recent ancestors my ass.

Are you seriously comparing Ukraine's treatment of the ethnic Russians to the Yugoslav treatment of the Albanian Muslims in Kosovo? Are you really that out of touch?

Furthermore, the previous claim I was responding to was about _ethnicity_ of the people, not past historical claims of territory.

In regards to historical claims of territory (of which the Crimean parliament agreed to join up with Ukraine in 1992 and ratified in treaties and internationally recognized, something which you apparently believe can be ignored on a whim), if China decided to invade Taiwan, something which they arguably have something of a claim to based on past history, would you be defending China and claim that any grievance the West has with the action is hypocritical, despite the destabilization and conflict such action would cause?

 

[barbos]

And Russia opposes countries setting up defense why, exactly? It's not like Russia is in any possible danger of an invasion by anyone. So what the fuck is going on exactly?

Surprisingly yes, there is a shitload of treaties and agreements about ballistic missile defenses and ordinary forces too.
And US/Poland do the same, they opposed possible short range missiles in Kalinigrad. So why Poland can do that and Russia can't? what is so fucking special about Poland? tell me?

All these events were justifiably interpreted as hostile toward Russia.

Setting up precautionary defenses against a country that has a track record of aggression is not in and of itself an aggressive move. A philosophy of better safe than sorry is actually a very prudent course of action.

What track record that is?
Iran attacked Poland?.... when?

NATO was moving into Ukraine and Russia were quite clear that it did not like that at all, NATO proclamations that it was none of your business are not exactly reassuring in NATO's good intentions.

NATO was nowhere close to inviting Ukraine to join.

Bullshit.

The US quite frankly doesn't need Ukraine in NATO, it's more of a hindrance and a downgrade to regional stability

than anything. And in all honestly, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the US denies Ukrainian application to NATO.

That's not good enough.

It's actually in our interests to keep Ukraine out of NATO. A complete drain on our resources for almost zero gain,

Well, go tell that to NATO.

and we also have no credible commitment to defend Ukrainian from Russian aggression. Letting Ukraine into NATO and then not coming to their aid in a time of need (should it arise) will be the downfall of NATO.

It is Russia's business because Russia is a large part of the Europe which you can't ignore and which has its security concerns too.

What kind of security concerns? Russia still has enough nukes to send civilization back to the stone age.

Actually, this may not be entirely true. Or will not be true in the future. US could be close to negating russian nukes moreless.

Russian borders have not been in any sort danger of being changed since the cold war ended. Their borders were more than secure. The only thing that has happened is an increase in the amount of territory they control - a clear sign of who the aggressor and bully is in the conflict.

Yes, it's clear.
Russia (SU) lost territory since Cold War ended. And NATO gained. it's clear who aggressor is.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The problem is that there are well over 10 million ethnic Russians in the Ukraine. The city of Sevastopol for example is up to 80% Russian populated. What is Russia to do about these significant minorities that want to remain Russian?

Right now nothing

There's a very large minority of ethnic Swedes in Finland. It's fine IMHO. I don't have a problem with it. They don't seem to have a problem with it. There's no problem. So why would it be a problem in Ukraine? Are Russians in Ukraine oppressed? The problem with nation states is that people don't stay put. They inter-marry. Ethnic identities are fluid anyway. What it means to be Swedish varies depending on where you live in Sweden. So it's idiotic to try to create country borders based on ethnicity. It's just asking for trouble. Best just leave the borders the way they are and get on with making the world a peaceful place.

 

[barbos]

Right now nothing

There's a very large minority of ethnic Swedes in Finland. It's fine IMHO. I don't have a problem with it. They don't seem to have a problem with it. There's no problem. So why would it be a problem in Ukraine? Are Russians in Ukraine oppressed? The problem with nation states is that people don't stay put. They inter-marry. Ethnic identities are fluid anyway. What it means to be Swedish varies depending on where you live in Sweden. So it's idiotic to try to create country borders based on ethnicity. It's just asking for trouble. Best just leave the borders the way they are and get on with making the world a peaceful place.

Go ask current Ukrainian government, cause before that there was no problems (well, moreless)

 

[barbos]

I was accused of being susceptible to conspiracy theories, guess who else is a conspiracy nut?
German Vice Chancellor (vice Merkel )
A don't read german but according to russian propaganda Sigmar Gabriel agrees with me
Again, this is russian propaganda and I have never heard of this guy before, but apparently he is a Vice Chancellor and he pretty much agrees with me.

 

[DrZoidberg]

There's a very large minority of ethnic Swedes in Finland. It's fine IMHO. I don't have a problem with it. They don't seem to have a problem with it. There's no problem. So why would it be a problem in Ukraine? Are Russians in Ukraine oppressed? The problem with nation states is that people don't stay put. They inter-marry. Ethnic identities are fluid anyway. What it means to be Swedish varies depending on where you live in Sweden. So it's idiotic to try to create country borders based on ethnicity. It's just asking for trouble. Best just leave the borders the way they are and get on with making the world a peaceful place.

Go ask current Ukrainian government, cause before that there was no problems (well, moreless)

!?? I wasn't aware that the current Ukrainian government was responsible for the current mess? As far as I can tell they're just trying to stabilise a shitty situation.

 

[barbos]

Go ask current Ukrainian government, cause before that there was no problems (well, moreless)

!?? I wasn't aware that the current Ukrainian government was responsible for the current mess?

They are, they are.

As far as I can tell they're just trying to stabilise a shitty situation.

They think they are

 

[Jayjay]

I'm going to ignore your red herrings and stick to this.

Do you agree that Russia and President Vladimir Putin have violated international norms,

Nowhere near as much as the USA and in the case of Crimea they did what America did in Kosovo.

The International Court of Justice disagrees with you:

“The Court has concluded above that the adoption of the declaration of independence of 17 February 2008 did not violate general international law, Security Council resolution 1244 (1999) or the Constitutional Framework. Consequently the adoption of that declaration did not violate any applicable rule of international law.”

greatly contributed to bitter conflict,

No they have not greatly contributed to regional conflict. They have done everything they could to keep the Ukrainian situation more peaceful and lessen deaths.

The unrest in Eastern Ukraine has cost more than 5000 lives so far and displaced close to a million people. It's hard to imagine how it could have been any worse.

upset the regional order,

No. The USA upset the regional order in Ukraine.

united Ukraine strongly against Russia

Ukraine is not united. Are you insane? Even the western parts of Ukraine are a chaotic mess. Have you any idea what is going on there?

Based on the recent election results, Ukraine (minus Crimea and the separatist-controller regions) is qute unanimously behind the pro-Western parties.

and disturbed his European neighbors?

America is the one who interfered by sponsoring the violent racist coup in Kiev.

America didn't "sponsor" the coup. In fact America was looking for a negotiated solution that would have left Yanukovich in power.

I don't give a fuck if you think US has done any of these in the past (or worse).

Exactly, and that is the problem. Too many Americans just don't give a fuck how many people their tax money kills.

It's about as relevant as bringing up Stalinist Russia.

 

[Jayjay]

Russian borders have not been in any sort danger of being changed since the cold war ended. Their borders were more than secure. The only thing that has happened is an increase in the amount of territory they control - a clear sign of who the aggressor and bully is in the conflict.

Yes, it's clear.
Russia (SU) lost territory since Cold War ended. And NATO gained. it's clear who aggressor is.

Countries voluntarily joining NATO to shore up their defenses (for a good reason, it turns out) is not aggression. I can't think of any NATO members that would have behaved aggressively towards their neighbours.

 

[Davka]

Yes, it's clear.
Russia (SU) lost territory since Cold War ended. And NATO gained. it's clear who aggressor is.

Countries voluntarily joining NATO to shore up their defenses (for a good reason, it turns out) is not aggression. I can't think of any NATO members that would have behaved aggressively towards their neighbours.

When nations run as fast as they can from their former oppressor, it's because the USA has lied to them and told them that freedom is good. Putin is merely bringing these confused nations back into the fold, so they can be where they should be, even if they don't want to. It's for their own good, out of the benevolent goodness of his heart.

 

[Ford]

This is very simplistic and loaded question.
US/EU are as guilty as Russia

Perhaps you could explain the Russian guilt? I won't hold my breath.

Still waiting.


So far all your responses have been to attempt to shift the blame on to the US/EU, even going so far as to claim the US is responsible for a "violent coup" which is completely unfounded.

 

[Davka]

The propaganda coming out of Russia during the theft of Crimea was unrelenting, similar to the crap being spewed in the USA after 9/11. Russian-speaking Crimeans were getting calls from their relatives in Russia, asking if they were all right. They had heard that Russian-speakers were being rounded up by Kiev and hauled off to camps, or killed outright.

And they believed it. just like the FOX news worshipers believe every word that drips from Bill O'Reilly's lips.

Maybe we're not so different after all.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The propaganda coming out of Russia during the theft of Crimea was unrelenting, similar to the crap being spewed in the USA after 9/11. Russian-speaking Crimeans were getting calls from their relatives in Russia, asking if they were all right. They had heard that Russian-speakers were being rounded up by Kiev and hauled off to camps, or killed outright. And they believed it. just like the FOX news worshipers believe every word that drips from Bill O'Reilly's lips. Maybe we're not so different after all.

We are different. Here's the difference, we can be self critical. Americans are very self critical. I see the same in Australians and Europeans. I see no self critical analysis by Russians.