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Sweden, Finland, and Ukraine joining NATO?

No, Crimea has been illegally annexed by Russia, with the illegal March referendum as crepe-thin cover. The referendum was illegitimate, and accomplished nothing on its own. It was the Little Green Men and their Russian tanks and guns that made the change, not any actual yearning on the part of the population.
It's always amusing when Americans point to the illegality of the actions of other countries.

In the light of the circumstances at the time Putin clearly did the right thing.
We had an American sponsored coup and regime change in Kiev. Apparently you as good American think that America has the right to sponsor "regime changes" wherever it likes. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So as with everywhere America goes we had chaos in Kiev and large areas of the Ukraine. Neo nazi elements were creating much of it too.
So Putin basically said..."not in our backyard USA". And of course (although for some reason you just don't get it), the largely Russian population sided with Russia.
And what we have is chaos in Ukraine where the USA is involved but a stable situation comparatively in Crimea.

One American author gets to the point rather well.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/05/did-putin-just-bring-peace-to-ukraine/
Putin’s not a troublemaker. He’s not sticking a freaking first-strike nuclear missile system in Havana just 60 miles from Miami. But that’s what Obama wants to do. Obama want to establish NATO bases on Russia’s doorstep and deploy his fake-named “missile defense system” a couple hundred miles from Moscow. Putin can’t allow that. No one in their right mind would allow that. It’s a direct threat to national security. Here’s how Putin summed it up in a recent press conference:

“Russia is an independent and active participant of international relations. Just like any nation it has national interests that must be taken into consideration and respected…..We stand against having a military organization meddling in our backyard, next to our homeland or in the territories that are historically ours. I just cannot imagine visiting NATO sailors in Sevastopol,” he stressed. “Most of them are fine lads, but I’d rather they visit us in Sevastopol than the other way around.” (Vladimir Putin)​

Washington’s harebrained gambit was doomed from the get go. Who made the decision to topple Yanuchovych, install a US-puppet in Kiev, fill-out the security services with neo Nazis, and wage a bloody ethnic cleansing purge on the Russian-speaking people in the east? Who was it? Isn’t there any accountability among the Obama team or is it all a matter of “failing upwards” like the Bush crowd? Here’s Putin again:

“Our western partners created the ‘Kosovo precedent’ with their own hands. In a situation absolutely the same as the one in Crimea they recognized Kosovo’s secession from Serbia legitimate while arguing that no permission from a country’s central authority for a unilateral declaration of independence is necessary….And the UN International Court of Justice agreed with those arguments. That’s what they said; that’s what they trumpeted all over the world and coerced everyone to accept – and now they are complaining about Crimea. Why is that?”​

The USA is playing you for a fool - Putin is actually a puppet of the USA and the sabre rattling and conflict is all part of the US' plan to enrich the military industrial complex. Stop reading the propaganda that tells you otherwise and wake up and smell the coffee.
 
It's always amusing when Americans point to the illegality of the actions of other countries.

In the light of the circumstances at the time Putin clearly did the right thing.
We had an American sponsored coup and regime change in Kiev. Apparently you as good American think that America has the right to sponsor "regime changes" wherever it likes. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So as with everywhere America goes we had chaos in Kiev and large areas of the Ukraine. Neo nazi elements were creating much of it too.
So Putin basically said..."not in our backyard USA". And of course (although for some reason you just don't get it), the largely Russian population sided with Russia.
And what we have is chaos in Ukraine where the USA is involved but a stable situation comparatively in Crimea.

One American author gets to the point rather well.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/05/did-putin-just-bring-peace-to-ukraine/
Putin’s not a troublemaker. He’s not sticking a freaking first-strike nuclear missile system in Havana just 60 miles from Miami. But that’s what Obama wants to do. Obama want to establish NATO bases on Russia’s doorstep and deploy his fake-named “missile defense system” a couple hundred miles from Moscow. Putin can’t allow that. No one in their right mind would allow that. It’s a direct threat to national security. Here’s how Putin summed it up in a recent press conference:

“Russia is an independent and active participant of international relations. Just like any nation it has national interests that must be taken into consideration and respected…..We stand against having a military organization meddling in our backyard, next to our homeland or in the territories that are historically ours. I just cannot imagine visiting NATO sailors in Sevastopol,” he stressed. “Most of them are fine lads, but I’d rather they visit us in Sevastopol than the other way around.” (Vladimir Putin)​

Washington’s harebrained gambit was doomed from the get go. Who made the decision to topple Yanuchovych, install a US-puppet in Kiev, fill-out the security services with neo Nazis, and wage a bloody ethnic cleansing purge on the Russian-speaking people in the east? Who was it? Isn’t there any accountability among the Obama team or is it all a matter of “failing upwards” like the Bush crowd? Here’s Putin again:

“Our western partners created the ‘Kosovo precedent’ with their own hands. In a situation absolutely the same as the one in Crimea they recognized Kosovo’s secession from Serbia legitimate while arguing that no permission from a country’s central authority for a unilateral declaration of independence is necessary….And the UN International Court of Justice agreed with those arguments. That’s what they said; that’s what they trumpeted all over the world and coerced everyone to accept – and now they are complaining about Crimea. Why is that?”​

The USA is playing you for a fool - Putin is actually a puppet of the USA and the sabre rattling and conflict is all part of the US' plan to enrich the military industrial complex. Stop reading the propaganda that tells you otherwise and wake up and smell the coffee.
Ironically it's usually Americans who come up with conspiracy theories such as the one your are trying to satirise. It's almost as if some people can only see America as "god's chosen one" or else they react with some crazy conspiracy theory.
But the truth is somewhere in between these two ridiculous extremes. One wonders why such a vast space is so empty.
 
This Crimea annexation thing illustrates how disconnected US media and politicians are from reality.
Crimea is gone and is not going back, not only crimeans don't want back but russian opposition to Putin would not let it back. So US can work on regime change in Russia all they want, but no regime which has any chance of winning in Russia will let Crimea back. With respect to Crimea Putin and his opposition as united as Republicans and Democrats with respect to it.
The issue really isn't about Crimea anymore. No doubt USA and EU know that Crimea is not going back, but as long as Russia is destabilizing eastern Ukraine with the same shenanigans it's unreasonable to expect them to concede Crimea. If Russia were to cut a deal with Ukraine on the rebellion in the east, I think Crimea would be a non-issue.

However, it seems like Putin has no intention of making a deal.
 
This Crimea annexation thing illustrates how disconnected US media and politicians are from reality.
Crimea is gone and is not going back, not only crimeans don't want back but russian opposition to Putin would not let it back. So US can work on regime change in Russia all they want, but no regime which has any chance of winning in Russia will let Crimea back. With respect to Crimea Putin and his opposition as united as Republicans and Democrats with respect to it.
The issue really isn't about Crimea anymore. No doubt USA and EU know that Crimea is not going back, but as long as Russia is destabilizing eastern Ukraine with the same shenanigans it's unreasonable to expect them to concede Crimea. If Russia were to cut a deal with Ukraine on the rebellion in the east, I think Crimea would be a non-issue.

However, it seems like Putin has no intention of making a deal.
What kind of deal you have in mind?
US/EU has not offered any deals. They merely repeat the same song called "Russia need to change its ways" without offering any fact or options. Ukraine is building great information wall of Ukraine and organizing night torch marches.
As for rebel support, number of reports of suspicious activities has reduced since that lost russian paratroopers incident. If there ever anything fishy then it seems has been shut down. But then there is no major military activity now, rebels are having internal frictions now and same in Ukraine.

Putin has offered his deal long time ago - Ukrainian finlandization, it was rejected.
 
The issue really isn't about Crimea anymore. No doubt USA and EU know that Crimea is not going back, but as long as Russia is destabilizing eastern Ukraine with the same shenanigans it's unreasonable to expect them to concede Crimea. If Russia were to cut a deal with Ukraine on the rebellion in the east, I think Crimea would be a non-issue.

However, it seems like Putin has no intention of making a deal.
What kind of deal you have in mind?
US/EU has not offered any deals. They merely repeat the same song called "Russia need to change its ways" without offering any fact or options. Ukraine is building great information wall of Ukraine and organizing night torch marches.
As for rebel support, number of reports of suspicious activities has reduced since that lost russian paratroopers incident. If there ever anything fishy then it seems has been shut down. But then there is no major military activity now, rebels are having internal frictions now and same in Ukraine.

Putin has offered his deal long time ago - Ukrainian finlandization, it was rejected.
That's hardly an offer. It might have been a preferred outcome at some point, but not exactly something you can put on the table.

While it's an improvement that the violence has subsided, the conflict is not over. Just frozen. This is fine for Russia because it ensures that NATO cannot admit Ukraine as a member.
 
No, Crimea has been illegally annexed by Russia, with the illegal March referendum as crepe-thin cover. The referendum was illegitimate, and accomplished nothing on its own. It was the Little Green Men and their Russian tanks and guns that made the change, not any actual yearning on the part of the population.
It's always amusing when Americans point to the illegality of the actions of other countries.

Tu Quoque is about as useful as it gets. Yup yup yup.
 
What kind of deal you have in mind? US/EU has not offered any deals. They merely repeat the same song called "Russia need to change its ways" without offering any fact or options. Ukraine is building great information wall of Ukraine and organizing night torch marches. As for rebel support, number of reports of suspicious activities has reduced since that lost russian paratroopers incident. If there ever anything fishy then it seems has been shut down. But then there is no major military activity now, rebels are having internal frictions now and same in Ukraine. Putin has offered his deal long time ago - Ukrainian finlandization, it was rejected.
Link? Link? Link???!!!!!!!!!!
 
What kind of deal you have in mind?
US/EU has not offered any deals. They merely repeat the same song called "Russia need to change its ways" without offering any fact or options. Ukraine is building great information wall of Ukraine and organizing night torch marches.
As for rebel support, number of reports of suspicious activities has reduced since that lost russian paratroopers incident. If there ever anything fishy then it seems has been shut down. But then there is no major military activity now, rebels are having internal frictions now and same in Ukraine.

Putin has offered his deal long time ago - Ukrainian finlandization, it was rejected.
That's hardly an offer. It might have been a preferred outcome at some point, but not exactly something you can put on the table.
At least it is something, US/EU don't even have that.
I don't understand why US does not want finlandization, is it because this whole mess is not about Ukraine but about creating excuse to put sanctions on Russia in order to change regime? They knew they would lose Crimea if they try to push NATO, that was automatic, yet they pushed NATO into Ukraine. Why?
While it's an improvement that the violence has subsided, the conflict is not over. Just frozen. This is fine for Russia because it ensures that NATO cannot admit Ukraine as a member.
Of course it's not over, and it seems that eastern Ukraine is well on Kosovo scenario with exception that it is NATO on a receiving end.
 
At least it is something, US/EU don't even have that. I don't understand why US does not want finlandization, is it because this whole mess is not about Ukraine but about creating excuse to put sanctions on Russia in order to change regime? They knew they would lose Crimea if they try to push NATO, that was automatic, yet they pushed NATO into Ukraine. Why? Of course it's not over, and it seems that eastern Ukraine is well on Kosovo scenario with exception that it is NATO on a receiving end.
Would you happen to have a link supporting your assertion that the U.S. Continues to push Ukraine towards NATO?
 
At least it is something, US/EU don't even have that. I don't understand why US does not want finlandization, is it because this whole mess is not about Ukraine but about creating excuse to put sanctions on Russia in order to change regime? They knew they would lose Crimea if they try to push NATO, that was automatic, yet they pushed NATO into Ukraine. Why? Of course it's not over, and it seems that eastern Ukraine is well on Kosovo scenario with exception that it is NATO on a receiving end.
Would you happen to have a link supporting your assertion that the U.S. Continues to push Ukraine towards NATO?

barbos thinks that anything contradictory to the official Kremlin line is "Western propaganda."
 
That's hardly an offer. It might have been a preferred outcome at some point, but not exactly something you can put on the table.
At least it is something, US/EU don't even have that.
I don't understand why US does not want finlandization, is it because this whole mess is not about Ukraine but about creating excuse to put sanctions on Russia in order to change regime? .
They cannot abide any independent power in Eurasia. Neoconservatism

In foreign policy, the neoconservatives' main concern is to prevent the development of a new rival. Defense Planning Guidance, a document prepared during 1992 by Under Secretary for Defense for Policy Paul Wolfowitz, is regarded by Distinguished Professor of the Humanities John McGowan at the University of North Carolina as the "quintessential statement of neoconservative thought". The report says:[68]
"Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power."​
They will do whatever they imagine might work to prevent Russia becoming an independent power and a multi-polar world emerging.
Of course this doomed to failure but the USA is quite happy to forment war in the Ukraine along the way.

I think Oliver Stone may be going to make a movie going into the CIA's involvement in the recent Ukrainian coup
https://www.facebook.com/TheOliverStone/posts/901387646552202
 
At least it is something, US/EU don't even have that.
I don't understand why US does not want finlandization, is it because this whole mess is not about Ukraine but about creating excuse to put sanctions on Russia in order to change regime? .
They cannot abide any independent power in Eurasia. Neoconservatism

In foreign policy, the neoconservatives' main concern is to prevent the development of a new rival. Defense Planning Guidance, a document prepared during 1992 by Under Secretary for Defense for Policy Paul Wolfowitz, is regarded by Distinguished Professor of the Humanities John McGowan at the University of North Carolina as the "quintessential statement of neoconservative thought". The report says:[68]
"Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power."​
They will do whatever they imagine might work to prevent Russia becoming an independent power and a multi-polar world emerging.
Of course this doomed to failure but the USA is quite happy to forment war in the Ukraine along the way.

I think Oliver Stone may be going to make a movie going into the CIA's involvement in the recent Ukrainian coup
https://www.facebook.com/TheOliverStone/posts/901387646552202
He is a talented director, and I'm sure it will be as entertaining as JFK.
 
You know, the Kremlin pays operatives to troll the Interwebs.

Just saying.
Has anyone ever been caught doing so? Though it's certainly not impossible that the Kremlin is doing some astroturfing, including some online astroturfing.

In any case, I must say that I enjoy being made to seem like a card-carrying member of the John Birch Society.
 
You know, the Kremlin pays operatives to troll the Interwebs.

Just saying.
Has anyone ever been caught doing so? Though it's certainly not impossible that the Kremlin is doing some astroturfing, including some online astroturfing.

In any case, I must say that I enjoy being made to seem like a card-carrying member of the John Birch Society.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america

That's not to say that anyone on this forum would be a paid shill. The return on investment just isn't worth it. Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if CIA does something similar in Middle East.
 
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Has anyone ever been caught doing so? Though it's certainly not impossible that the Kremlin is doing some astroturfing, including some online astroturfing.

In any case, I must say that I enjoy being made to seem like a card-carrying member of the John Birch Society.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america

That's not to say that anyone on this forum would be a paid shill. The return on investment just isn't worth it. Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if CIA does something similar in Middle East.

Well to be fair, Buzzfeed is Western Media, and as we all know Western Media is all lies. Only trust Russian sources!
 
You know, the Kremlin pays operatives to troll the Interwebs.

Just saying.
Has anyone ever been caught doing so? Though it's certainly not impossible that the Kremlin is doing some astroturfing, including some online astroturfing.

In any case, I must say that I enjoy being made to seem like a card-carrying member of the John Birch Society.

It's standard operating procedure in every and all countries. The technical term is "psychological warfare". It only becomes increasingly more important over time.
 
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america

That's not to say that anyone on this forum would be a paid shill. The return on investment just isn't worth it. Regardless, I wouldn't be surprised if CIA does something similar in Middle East.

Well to be fair, Buzzfeed is Western Media, and as we all know Western Media is all lies. Only trust Russian sources!
Trust none of the above sources until researched properly. Be wary of sources that depend on sensationalism to sell papers.
 
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