Syria, Turks, and Kurds

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

 

[Politesse]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

Not me. The Democrats have never been anti-war. But I am.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

Baloney. Is that the latest republican talking point?

Every president wants out of these entanglements and has tried to achieve that. Trump, however, is leaving our allies to be butchered, something previous presidents would not do.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

Baloney. Is that the latest republican talking point?

Every president wants out of these entanglements and has tried to achieve that. Trump, however, is leaving our allies to be butchered, something previous presidents would not do.

Agreed. But what really worries me about Trump is that he is by far the least informed President in our history. And yet, the only counsel that he accepts is himself. He didn't run this idea by his cabinet, his advisers or the pentagon. He needs to be impeached...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So we are allowed to ignore that Iraq happened and the consequences of it just because our guy gets in?

Fuck, man the moral high ground seems so much easier to summit now.

In the real world, the Kurds, both in Iraq and Syria risked their lives, their actual lives to defend their existence and to hold back some actual tyranny. They did the along side us. Any attempt to stab them in the back is grossfully ignorant of history (see WWI, 80s Afghanistan) and lacking in the least bit of moral fiber. Yeah, the Pottery Barn policy sucks, but the alternative is being global sized assholes.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

Baloney. Is that the latest republican talking point?

Their latest talking point is that Trump is wrong to pull out of Syria.

Every president wants out of these entanglements and has tried to achieve that.

Boloney. Bush and Obama were more than happy to go IN to those entanglements.

Trump, however, is leaving our allies to be butchered, something previous presidents would not do.

If our "allies" want to butcher our "allies", how exactly is that OUR problem? Are we the police of the world?

And if we are the police, shouldn't they be paying taxes to us for our police work?

You sound exactly like the Republicans you pretend to oppose.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

Baloney. Is that the latest republican talking point?

Every president wants out of these entanglements and has tried to achieve that. Trump, however, is leaving our allies to be butchered, something previous presidents would not do.

Well, no. You might remember Bush 41 supported Iraqi revolts against Saddam Hussein, and when some anti-Saddam Iraqis such as the swamp Arabs did so, and Saddam attacked them, Bush refused to help them out from a disaster we caused by egging them on. We do shit like this.

 

[Ford]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

Baloney. Is that the latest republican talking point?

Every president wants out of these entanglements and has tried to achieve that. Trump, however, is leaving our allies to be butchered, something previous presidents would not do.

Agreed. But what really worries me about Trump is that he is by far the least informed President in our history. And yet, the only counsel that he accepts is himself. He didn't run this idea by his cabinet, his advisers or the pentagon. He needs to be impeached...

Near as I can tell, he ran the idea by Erdogan...an authoritarian he's expressed admiration for.

His advisors (at least some of them) said "hold on, this situation is complicated and involves decades of diplomacy and tenuous alliances" and Trump said "fuck it, I'm gonna do what Erdogan says I should do."

This has less to do with left/right or anti-war and everything to do with "impulsive man who has no grasp of history makes obviously bad decision."

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

One minute you guys are all terrified that he's going to start WWIII, the next minute you guys are all terrified that he won't start WWIII.

In many places around the globe, there are two sides pointing guns at each other, with the US standing in-between them, and both of them are yelling "by god if it weren't for the US standing in the way I'd pull the trigger now." Well, I say let us get out of the way and see if they are as brave as their bluster.

If Trump isn't stopped, peace might break out. That is the neocon nightmare.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

One minute you guys are all terrified that he's going to start WWIII, the next minute you guys are all terrified that he won't start WWIII.

In many places around the globe, there are two sides pointing guns at each other, with the US standing in-between them, and both of them are yelling "by god if it weren't for the US standing in the way I'd pull the trigger now." Well, I say let us get out of the way and see if they are as brave as their bluster.

If Trump isn't stopped, peace might break out. That is the neocon nightmare.

Ahhh, the smell of strawmen. It smells .... like victory. Leftists: "Oh noes! Trump won't start WWIII!" Please do not insult everybody's intelligence. There is a difference between looking at the long game to get out of wars that go on forever without real political will to win, and then, like Trump, thrashing around at random, without a plan, without getting input from smart officials who know what is going on. Crap that bubbles up in Trump's ignorant and foolish brain and bursts out to the shock and dismay of sober experts.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

If it is a strawman, then explain how the third post in this thread says that my post was a republican talking point.

Neocons want to stay in. That describes most of this thread. Neocons never pull out.

 

[Derec]

Trump is very weak on foreign matters. He should have retaliated against Iran for downing our drone and for attacking Saudi oil facilities. And he should not be abandoning the Kurds. I wonder if he is doing these things to please Put-put.

 

[Derec]

Neocons never pull out.

It's a poor birth control method anyway!

 

[Patooka]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

I agree. All foreign policy decisions must be made with a clear binary set of ethics without any context or consideration of unintended consequences. That's why throwing Afghan freedom fighters under the bus in the 1980s was the smart thing to do. It absolutely had no ramifications down the road. This decision will be fine as well. It will be perfect, just wait.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

I agree. All foreign policy decisions must be made with a clear binary set of ethics without any context or consideration of unintended consequences. That's why throwing Afghan freedom fighters under the bus in the 1980s was the smart thing to do. It absolutely had no ramifications down the road. This decision will be fine as well. It will be perfect, just wait.

Good post. Jason: believe it or not most of us on the left want more peace in the world, less war. Most of us were against Iraq invasion. Most of us want to pull back from the world militarily. However, to believe that the US only brings death and chaos is not realistic. A hasty ill-thought out retreat can be just as deadly on civilians as a hasty ill-thought out invasion. People are going to needlessly suffer due to US withdraw.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

I agree. All foreign policy decisions must be made with a clear binary set of ethics without any context or consideration of unintended consequences. That's why throwing Afghan freedom fighters under the bus in the 1980s was the smart thing to do. It absolutely had no ramifications down the road. This decision will be fine as well. It will be perfect, just wait.

If the US hadn't gotten involved in supporting them, then withdrawing that support wouldn't be "throwing Afghan freedom fighters under the bus". Isn't it fun to describe non-intervention as a half-way measure the way Neocons always do?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Well, this should pull some interest away from his issue with Ukraine. Admittedly, it’s a doozy. It had to be. Sorry Kurds. You understand.

 

[Patooka]

If the US hadn't gotten involved in supporting them

I agree. But guess what? They fucking did. You seem to think foreign policy should be made in a vacuum. That's amazingly naive.

Isn't it fun to describe non-intervention as a half-way measure the way Neocons always do?

But I'm not a neocon. I'm a nazi. If your argument depends on name calling, I would appreciate it if you called me a nazi, like everybody else.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I think both sides are somewhat wrong. Option#3: Our focus in an alliance with the Kurds ought to be in helping them with self-defense and in helping them with self-determination, i.e. an independent Kurdistan.

There is some overlap with these ideas in helping them to occupy Northeastern Syria, but not enough. On there other hand, leaving them means Turkey will go on the offensive against them to occupy Northeastern Syria.

No easy answer. So I support option#3 above.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If the US hadn't gotten involved in supporting them

I agree. But guess what? They fucking did. You seem to think foreign policy should be made in a vacuum. That's amazingly naive.

Not as much naive as it is the ivory pedestal Jason perches atop is so high, the oxygen content in the air is rather low.