Syria, Turks, and Kurds

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The neocon argument for foreign policy is "We made a mess, we have to stay and clean it up. Stay forever. It is always too early to come home." The non-interventionist argument is "Stop making the mess, and eventually you DO have to come home even if it does mean some messes remain unfixed."

Eventually, for better or worse, troops have to come home. Even if we haven't turned the area into rainbows and unicorns.

Neocons like Patooka and Jimmy don't want to come home. They will very reluctantly agree that we wouldn't have this mess if we hadn't made this mess, but it is always too early for the troops to come back. Someone might stub their toe without US troops protecting them.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The neocon argument for foreign policy is "We made a mess, we have to stay and clean it up. Stay forever. It is always too early to come home." The non-interventionist argument is "Stop making the mess, and eventually you DO have to come home even if it does mean some messes remain unfixed."

Eventually, for better or worse, troops have to come home. Even if we haven't turned the area into rainbows and unicorns.

Neocons like Patooka and Jimmy don't want to come home. They will very reluctantly agree that we wouldn't have this mess if we hadn't made this mess, but it is always too early for the troops to come back. Someone might stub their toe without US troops protecting them.

Who gives a flying fuck whether someone is con, neocon, lib or chinese? The Kurds did a great job as allies, and now we're supposed to let the Turks treat them as terrorists? Is that your solution?

 

[Politesse]

The neocon argument for foreign policy is "We made a mess, we have to stay and clean it up. Stay forever. It is always too early to come home." The non-interventionist argument is "Stop making the mess, and eventually you DO have to come home even if it does mean some messes remain unfixed."

Eventually, for better or worse, troops have to come home. Even if we haven't turned the area into rainbows and unicorns.

Neocons like Patooka and Jimmy don't want to come home. They will very reluctantly agree that we wouldn't have this mess if we hadn't made this mess, but it is always too early for the troops to come back. Someone might stub their toe without US troops protecting them.

Who gives a flying fuck whether someone is con, neocon, lib or chinese? The Kurds did a great job as allies, and now we're supposed to let the Turks treat them as terrorists? Is that your solution?

This was always our long-term plan. On both "sides". You have be very dumb or very desperate to ally with the U.S., we are accomplished backstabbers

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The neocon argument for foreign policy is "We made a mess, we have to stay and clean it up. Stay forever. It is always too early to come home." The non-interventionist argument is "Stop making the mess, and eventually you DO have to come home even if it does mean some messes remain unfixed."

The neocon argument was 'there won't be any problems'. The neocons thought the world operated differently for them than it did for others. Turns out, they were wrong. It was clear in '03 that invading Iraq was a bad idea.

Eventually, for better or worse, troops have to come home.

Typically they do, they are rotated.

Even if we haven't turned the area into rainbows and unicorns.

The good news is that it is a Libertarian utopia out there. Very little government to interfere with your life.

Neocons like Patooka and Jimmy don't want to come home.

Like I told the electrician when he asked me if I "wanted" to move forward with the contract work. I told him, no, I don't particularly "want" to, but I need to. Much the same with Afghanistan and Northern Syria. There will be consequences to our actions, one way or the other. And while some libertarians seem incapable of empathy or honor or simply keeping our word, we (the United States) have a debt to some people that ought be repaid.

Curious, how many agreements should the US walk out of to appease the oxygen deprived Libertarians out there?

 

[Horatio Parker]

The Kurds are not in opposition to Assad. The regime pays govt salaries in the Kurdish areas and the statues of Assad have not been torn down. At the same time, they are not exactly Assad allies either. Clearly they are out to get what they can. Turkish intervention and US abandonment threatens to push them further toward Assad.

The Kurds were vital to us when ISIS was a threat. To weaken Assad, and keep an eye on the remains of ISIS, not to mention a sense of obligation, all for just 1k troops(who are not even engaged) seems a no brainer.

On top of it, if the Turks don't behave towards civilians, that blood will be on our hands.

Generally, I agree with getting out of the ME. This seems a stupid way to do so.

Maybe Erdogan dangled a hotel deal in front of Trump.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The Kurds are not in opposition to Assad. The regime pays govt salaries in the Kurdish areas and the statues of Assad have not been torn down. At the same time, they are not exactly Assad allies either. Clearly they are out to get what they can. Turkish intervention and US abandonment threatens to push them further toward Assad.

The Kurds were vital to us when ISIS was a threat. To weaken Assad, and keep an eye on the remains of ISIS, not to mention a sense of obligation, all for just 1k troops(who are not even engaged) seems a no brainer.

On top of it, if the Turks don't behave towards civilians, that blood will be on our hands.

Generally, I agree with getting out of the ME. This seems a stupid way to do so.

Maybe Erdogan dangled a hotel deal in front of Trump.

I always think of JFK and Cuba. JFK convened his people and discussed what to do. he wanted their opinions and then decided. Some were vehemently opposed to his actions but there was at least a semblance of order and dignity to his behavior. But Trumpo tells us that his "great and unmatched wisdom" is the solution, and later that he will destroy Turkey if it does anything bad.

The guy is a fucking loon, a dangerous, laughable fucking loon.

 

[Patooka]

Neocons like Patooka and Jimmy don't want to come home. They will very reluctantly agree that we wouldn't have this mess if we hadn't made this mess, but it is always too early for the troops to come back. Someone might stub their toe without US troops protecting them.

I keep telling you, I'm not a neocon. I'm a nazi. Which is why I wasn't in the least bit reluctant in my agreement. You seem to have the opinion that throwing allies under the bus will have no lasting repercussions. That's adorable.

 

[Harry Bosch]

So Trump is announcing his intent to pull US troops out of Syria.

Way back down the memory hole, I remember when Democrats thought Bush was far too militaristic, throwing troops around the world without any thought. Obama taught them to stop worrying and love the war.

Now Democrats who hate everything Trump does and Republicans who are opposed to peace in the Middle East are united against Trump.

So much for the anti-war left.

It is being described as abandoning "our allies" the Kurds, who may or may not be invaded by "our allies" the Turks. Apparently our allies want to war with each other and the only reason they don't is because we are holding them apart. Holding them apart is supposed to be a job for the US. It isn't a job I would choose for the US.

It seems that as much as nobody cares when troops are sent in, it is some sort of crisis when troops are pulled out.

I agree. All foreign policy decisions must be made with a clear binary set of ethics without any context or consideration of unintended consequences. That's why throwing Afghan freedom fighters under the bus in the 1980s was the smart thing to do. It absolutely had no ramifications down the road. This decision will be fine as well. It will be perfect, just wait.

If the US hadn't gotten involved in supporting them, then withdrawing that support wouldn't be "throwing Afghan freedom fighters under the bus". Isn't it fun to describe non-intervention as a half-way measure the way Neocons always do?

But pulling out after we're already there is not "non-intervention". We're like the local police department separating the wife from the abusive husband, then all of a sudden we pull allow and allow the husband to have his way. Clearly, I would advise countries to never trust America. Our word is crap.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I think both sides are somewhat wrong. Option#3: Our focus in an alliance with the Kurds ought to be in helping them with self-defense and in helping them with self-determination, i.e. an independent Kurdistan.

There is some overlap with these ideas in helping them to occupy Northeastern Syria, but not enough. On there other hand, leaving them means Turkey will go on the offensive against them to occupy Northeastern Syria.

No easy answer. So I support option#3 above.

Don: the problem here is that Turkey would immediately attack Northern Syria, even with the US there. For some reason, their biggest nightmare is an independent Kurdistan on their border. Bullies don't like anyone standing up to them...

 

[Shadowy Man]

Wait a second... Trump is still allowed to talk on the phone with foreign leaders??

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I think both sides are somewhat wrong. Option#3: Our focus in an alliance with the Kurds ought to be in helping them with self-defense and in helping them with self-determination, i.e. an independent Kurdistan.

There is some overlap with these ideas in helping them to occupy Northeastern Syria, but not enough. On there other hand, leaving them means Turkey will go on the offensive against them to occupy Northeastern Syria.

No easy answer. So I support option#3 above.

Don: the problem here is that Turkey would immediately attack Northern Syria, even with the US there. For some reason, their biggest nightmare is an independent Kurdistan on their border. Bullies don't like anyone standing up to them...

The main reason Turkey hasn't attacked northeastern Syria is because the U.S. is present. I have no problem with option#3 which probably means a slight retreat to expected borders and recognition. Like a Libertarian Party Presidential win in 2020, I know this isn't a real choice. That's actually my point. I can make a better principled argument than Jason has by discussing the principles of self-defense and self-determination: Non-interventionism is evil because of all the people being murdered. Also, continuing to allow Kurds to be oppressed by neighboring countries is also evil. Jason doesn't support a right to life and liberty. See?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

One minute you guys are all terrified that he's going to start WWIII, the next minute you guys are all terrified that he won't start WWIII.

In many places around the globe, there are two sides pointing guns at each other, with the US standing in-between them, and both of them are yelling "by god if it weren't for the US standing in the way I'd pull the trigger now." Well, I say let us get out of the way and see if they are as brave as their bluster.

If Trump isn't stopped, peace might break out. That is the neocon nightmare.

You really think they wouldn't pull the trigger?? Sides that were fighting until we got in the middle would magically stop if we leave?

 

[Elixir]

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If it is a strawman, then explain how the third post in this thread says that my post was a republican talking point.

Neocons want to stay in. That describes most of this thread. Neocons never pull out.

You're supposed to welcome children if you have sex. Only timing is permitted as birth control.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

One minute you guys are all terrified that he's going to start WWIII, the next minute you guys are all terrified that he won't start WWIII.

In many places around the globe, there are two sides pointing guns at each other, with the US standing in-between them, and both of them are yelling "by god if it weren't for the US standing in the way I'd pull the trigger now." Well, I say let us get out of the way and see if they are as brave as their bluster.

If Trump isn't stopped, peace might break out. That is the neocon nightmare.

You really think they wouldn't pull the trigger?? Sides that were fighting until we got in the middle would magically stop if we leave?

Then we shouldn't have gotten between them in the first place. We aren't solving anything, we are postponing the conflict until we are forced by bankruptcy to pull out.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

So non-interventionists want to pull out and run instead of staying with their partners.

 

[Harry Bosch]

One minute you guys are all terrified that he's going to start WWIII, the next minute you guys are all terrified that he won't start WWIII.

In many places around the globe, there are two sides pointing guns at each other, with the US standing in-between them, and both of them are yelling "by god if it weren't for the US standing in the way I'd pull the trigger now." Well, I say let us get out of the way and see if they are as brave as their bluster.

If Trump isn't stopped, peace might break out. That is the neocon nightmare.

You really think they wouldn't pull the trigger?? Sides that were fighting until we got in the middle would magically stop if we leave?

Then we shouldn't have gotten between them in the first place. We aren't solving anything, we are postponing the conflict until we are forced by bankruptcy to pull out.

So we can afford to paint the American/Mexico border wall black to bow down to satisfy trump's ego, but we can't afford to protect the Kurds? Our allies?

 

[Elixir]

So we can afford to paint the American/Mexico border wall black to bow down to satisfy trump's ego, but we can't afford to protect the Kurds? Our allies?

It's a sickness. Trump is a sickness.
A good friend of mine died in Afghanistan a couple of years ago. He went there as a PMC after two tours with the military in Iraq. Between stints he worked for me and I spend considerable time with him discussing the cultural/tribal divides that, at the end of the day, control that region. Kurds (in his opinion and considerable experience) are the only identifiable group composed of honorable, reliable courageous people. Just the kind of people Trump hates. So it is not surprising that he is trying to feed them to the Russian wolves. This is an unspeakably sad, treasonous stunt that Cheato is pulling for no other reason than to put something into the headlines other than the fact that he deserves to be impeached and removed. So he basically murders our best friends in the region.
DISGUSTING

 

[Patooka]

One minute you guys are all terrified that he's going to start WWIII, the next minute you guys are all terrified that he won't start WWIII.

In many places around the globe, there are two sides pointing guns at each other, with the US standing in-between them, and both of them are yelling "by god if it weren't for the US standing in the way I'd pull the trigger now." Well, I say let us get out of the way and see if they are as brave as their bluster.

If Trump isn't stopped, peace might break out. That is the neocon nightmare.

You really think they wouldn't pull the trigger?? Sides that were fighting until we got in the middle would magically stop if we leave?

Then we shouldn't have gotten between them in the first place. We aren't solving anything, we are postponing the conflict until we are forced by bankruptcy to pull out.

Dude. 32 of your states will go bankrupt if they stop manufacturing weapons. That you are not aware of this proves how much of an ivory tower thinking you have. Good luck finding five other people who agree with you.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Meanwhile below Jason's ivory pedestal.

ISTANBUL — President Recep Tayyip Erdogan announced on Wednesday that Turkey’s military had launched a long-expected offensive into northeastern Syria targeting U.S.-allied Syrian Kurdish fighters that have played a central role in the fight against the Islamic State militant group.

“The Turkish Armed Forces, together with the Syrian National Army, just launched #OperationPeaceSpring against PKK/YPG and Daesh terrorists in northern Syria,” Erdogan wrote on Twitter Wednesday afternoon, referring to the Syrian-Kurdish force as well as the Islamic State.

“Our mission is to prevent the creation of a terror corridor across our southern border, and to bring peace to the area,” he said.

The offensive, which began with airstrikes in Syrian border towns, has presented the Trump administration with a dilemma, because of the Syrian-Kurdish forces alliance with the United States.

This prevents a serious dilemma for Trump. Does he defend someone that didn't promise him the possibility to slap his name on a hotel? This might take all of his "unmatched wisdom" to resolve.