Taliban Scratching Head - Suicide Attacks at Kabul Hospital

[Bronzeage]

Ah... the good ole world of 'careful what you wish for'. It appears a pair of suicide bombers attacked Kabul, at a military hospital.

The Taliban was long the aggressor in Afghanistan, and now the nation is under their control, it doesn't appear to be at peace. Which umm.... well, they say you can never go back home. There was conflict in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, but this feels a bit different, mainly because I'm not familiar with Afghanistan pre-9/11. But suicide bombing attacks in the capital city seems brazen, and uncoordinated.

This isn't a front battle, this is an insurgency... which the Taliban will be quite familiar with. And I can only wonder what the Taliban is thinking... and the people too. After all, the people were abandoned by the US and the Taliban took over... well at least the bombings will stop. But they haven't. The people of Afghanistan don't have alternatives, and the Taliban, ain't too galvanized nor capable of dealing with anti-insurgencies.

Poor ole Taliban, they thought they won Capture the Flag. But the game didn't end, the opponents just changed.

Western mindsets are often baffled by suicide bombings, especially those which seem to have no strategic or tactical target. The target in this incident is public confidence in the Taliban government. One of the inevitable elements of extremist movements is splintering of the movement because one faction is ready to compromise in order to gain power. To do this, the more extreme elements must be marginalized and in a place like Afghanistan, this is the result.

Don't Westerners worship a guy who comitted suicide-by-police, and indeed ritually consume his blood in a grotesque ceremony on Sundays? Shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

In most Christian theologies, there is a distinction between considered self sacrifice and suicide. Self sacrifice is generally made to save or protect others, such as diving on a live grenade, or giving someone the last life jacket on a sinking ship.

Suicide bombers sacrifice themselves in order to inflict disproportionate injury on others.

It's kind of a stretch to bring Jesus into it and then claim it should make suicide bombing a plausible act.

 

[fromderinside]

Ah, shit. Lazarus just died again.

 

[Jarhyn]

Ah... the good ole world of 'careful what you wish for'. It appears a pair of suicide bombers attacked Kabul, at a military hospital.

The Taliban was long the aggressor in Afghanistan, and now the nation is under their control, it doesn't appear to be at peace. Which umm.... well, they say you can never go back home. There was conflict in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, but this feels a bit different, mainly because I'm not familiar with Afghanistan pre-9/11. But suicide bombing attacks in the capital city seems brazen, and uncoordinated.

This isn't a front battle, this is an insurgency... which the Taliban will be quite familiar with. And I can only wonder what the Taliban is thinking... and the people too. After all, the people were abandoned by the US and the Taliban took over... well at least the bombings will stop. But they haven't. The people of Afghanistan don't have alternatives, and the Taliban, ain't too galvanized nor capable of dealing with anti-insurgencies.

Poor ole Taliban, they thought they won Capture the Flag. But the game didn't end, the opponents just changed.

Western mindsets are often baffled by suicide bombings, especially those which seem to have no strategic or tactical target. The target in this incident is public confidence in the Taliban government. One of the inevitable elements of extremist movements is splintering of the movement because one faction is ready to compromise in order to gain power. To do this, the more extreme elements must be marginalized and in a place like Afghanistan, this is the result.

Don't Westerners worship a guy who comitted suicide-by-police, and indeed ritually consume his blood in a grotesque ceremony on Sundays? Shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

In most Christian theologies, there is a distinction between considered self sacrifice and suicide. Self sacrifice is generally made to save or protect others, such as diving on a live grenade, or giving someone the last life jacket on a sinking ship.

Suicide bombers sacrifice themselves in order to inflict disproportionate injury on others.

It's kind of a stretch to bring Jesus into it and then claim it should make suicide bombing a plausible act.

If nothing else, public acts of suicide are pretty necessarily acts of desperation and literal last resort.

Don't forget that Christianity has their own handy Suicide Attack propaganda package in the story of Sampson.

It doesn't need to be linked to Jesus to be part of the meme.

 

[jab]

Don't Westerners worship a guy who comitted suicide-by-police, and indeed ritually consume his blood in a grotesque ceremony on Sundays? Shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

Not really a reasonable summary of the story, and in any case Jesus did not strap explosives to disciples and send them to blow themselves up, murdering Roman civilians or fellow Jews belonging to rival factions. So I do not follow how this is in any way analogous to Islamist suicide bombers in Afghanistan.

Um, think of all those early Christian martyrs--including one or two or teh disciples, acording to legend

Ah... the good ole world of 'careful what you wish for'. It appears a pair of suicide bombers attacked Kabul, at a military hospital.
[...]
Poor ole Taliban, they thought they won Capture the Flag. But the game didn't end, the opponents just changed.

Muslims are known to violently clash with kafirs wherever there are significant numbers of Muslims - from Europe to East Asia. When there are no legit kafirs around, they simply declare fellow Muslims kafirs and slaughter them. The Taliban think Shiite Hazaras are not true Mulims. ISIS think nobody but them are true Muslims, etc.

Muslims aren't unique in this.

Take a look at the History of Christendom and Christian culture. The huge violence is well established. Not just violence against non-Christians centuries ago. Or different Christians in the modern world. Violence. Christians are very prone to violence. Christians aren't much different from anybody else. Possibly more violent and entitled because they've dominated the globe for centuries.
Tom

But a key difference is that (some) Muslims are still killing for doctrinal differences. There is no equivalent Christian violence today.

Enough about the horrors of Christianity (not the topic of this thread.)
Here's my question, in relation to this thread: In Afghanistan, why does Isis hate the Taliban? Is it based, at least Isis propaganda, on religion, or is is chiefly or entirely political?
This is a serious question, and please either ignore it or answer it without deflecting to some other religion or or country.

 

[Politesse]

ISIS does not acknowledge any other Muslim powers as legitimate; while their political goals are a bit indistinct and inconsistent owing to the very scattered nature of their various cells and factions, in general they want the whole of the Muslim world to be under the dominion of the Caliphate they desire to build, under leadership of some kind of theocratic but monarchic court. The Taliban are pushing for self-rule of their own territory in Afghanistan, presided over directly by the judicial branch and its chief justice, Amir al-Mu'minin. Religion is only partially connected to this game of thrones; only religious authorities are considered legitimate by either group, and it is the Muslim world that is at question. But politically, they are not allies nor do they share goals.

 

[Bronzeage]

Ah... the good ole world of 'careful what you wish for'. It appears a pair of suicide bombers attacked Kabul, at a military hospital.

The Taliban was long the aggressor in Afghanistan, and now the nation is under their control, it doesn't appear to be at peace. Which umm.... well, they say you can never go back home. There was conflict in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, but this feels a bit different, mainly because I'm not familiar with Afghanistan pre-9/11. But suicide bombing attacks in the capital city seems brazen, and uncoordinated.

This isn't a front battle, this is an insurgency... which the Taliban will be quite familiar with. And I can only wonder what the Taliban is thinking... and the people too. After all, the people were abandoned by the US and the Taliban took over... well at least the bombings will stop. But they haven't. The people of Afghanistan don't have alternatives, and the Taliban, ain't too galvanized nor capable of dealing with anti-insurgencies.

Poor ole Taliban, they thought they won Capture the Flag. But the game didn't end, the opponents just changed.

Western mindsets are often baffled by suicide bombings, especially those which seem to have no strategic or tactical target. The target in this incident is public confidence in the Taliban government. One of the inevitable elements of extremist movements is splintering of the movement because one faction is ready to compromise in order to gain power. To do this, the more extreme elements must be marginalized and in a place like Afghanistan, this is the result.

Don't Westerners worship a guy who comitted suicide-by-police, and indeed ritually consume his blood in a grotesque ceremony on Sundays? Shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

In most Christian theologies, there is a distinction between considered self sacrifice and suicide. Self sacrifice is generally made to save or protect others, such as diving on a live grenade, or giving someone the last life jacket on a sinking ship.

Suicide bombers sacrifice themselves in order to inflict disproportionate injury on others.

It's kind of a stretch to bring Jesus into it and then claim it should make suicide bombing a plausible act.

If nothing else, public acts of suicide are pretty necessarily acts of desperation and literal last resort.

Don't forget that Christianity has their own handy Suicide Attack propaganda package in the story of Sampson.

It doesn't need to be linked to Jesus to be part of the meme.

Other than the story of Sampson being included in the Old Testament which most Christian sects consider to be Holy Scripture, there's no real connection between the Sampson story and the teachings of Jesus.

Beyond that, Sampson's suicidal destruction of the Philistine palace was an act of revenge on the people who had imprisoned him and poked out his eyes. It was a personal matter, not a political one.

 

[Patooka]

Here's my question, in relation to this thread: In Afghanistan, why does Isis hate the Taliban? Is it based, at least Isis propaganda, on religion, or is is chiefly or entirely political?

There is no meaningful distinction between religion and politics in theocracies. And theocracies do not like sharing. It's also worth pointing out that the group in Afghanistan is Isis-K, a semi autonomous part of Isis.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ah... the good ole world of 'careful what you wish for'. It appears a pair of suicide bombers attacked Kabul, at a military hospital.

The Taliban was long the aggressor in Afghanistan, and now the nation is under their control, it doesn't appear to be at peace. Which umm.... well, they say you can never go back home. There was conflict in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, but this feels a bit different, mainly because I'm not familiar with Afghanistan pre-9/11. But suicide bombing attacks in the capital city seems brazen, and uncoordinated.

This isn't a front battle, this is an insurgency... which the Taliban will be quite familiar with. And I can only wonder what the Taliban is thinking... and the people too. After all, the people were abandoned by the US and the Taliban took over... well at least the bombings will stop. But they haven't. The people of Afghanistan don't have alternatives, and the Taliban, ain't too galvanized nor capable of dealing with anti-insurgencies.

Poor ole Taliban, they thought they won Capture the Flag. But the game didn't end, the opponents just changed.

I think Afghanistan was abandoned by USA during the US occupation as well. All the investment USA and allies put into that country was embezzled. The reason the US backed regime collapsed, was because it was an illusion. USA tried to build a lasting regime, but the invasion was led by naive people who became taken advantage of by the new Afghan leaders.

USA pulling out wasn't so much abandoning Afghanistan, as admitting that he entire occupation had been a sham. All the social progress under the occupation was window dressing.

I don't think the Taleban had any illusions about that now they need to start all over to grab power, just like they'd done in the 90'ies. Like it or not, the Taleban are the least naive players right now. They read the situation correctly and are making the most of it.

 

[Jarhyn]

Ah... the good ole world of 'careful what you wish for'. It appears a pair of suicide bombers attacked Kabul, at a military hospital.

The Taliban was long the aggressor in Afghanistan, and now the nation is under their control, it doesn't appear to be at peace. Which umm.... well, they say you can never go back home. There was conflict in Afghanistan prior to 9/11, but this feels a bit different, mainly because I'm not familiar with Afghanistan pre-9/11. But suicide bombing attacks in the capital city seems brazen, and uncoordinated.

This isn't a front battle, this is an insurgency... which the Taliban will be quite familiar with. And I can only wonder what the Taliban is thinking... and the people too. After all, the people were abandoned by the US and the Taliban took over... well at least the bombings will stop. But they haven't. The people of Afghanistan don't have alternatives, and the Taliban, ain't too galvanized nor capable of dealing with anti-insurgencies.

Poor ole Taliban, they thought they won Capture the Flag. But the game didn't end, the opponents just changed.

Western mindsets are often baffled by suicide bombings, especially those which seem to have no strategic or tactical target. The target in this incident is public confidence in the Taliban government. One of the inevitable elements of extremist movements is splintering of the movement because one faction is ready to compromise in order to gain power. To do this, the more extreme elements must be marginalized and in a place like Afghanistan, this is the result.

Don't Westerners worship a guy who comitted suicide-by-police, and indeed ritually consume his blood in a grotesque ceremony on Sundays? Shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

In most Christian theologies, there is a distinction between considered self sacrifice and suicide. Self sacrifice is generally made to save or protect others, such as diving on a live grenade, or giving someone the last life jacket on a sinking ship.

Suicide bombers sacrifice themselves in order to inflict disproportionate injury on others.

It's kind of a stretch to bring Jesus into it and then claim it should make suicide bombing a plausible act.

If nothing else, public acts of suicide are pretty necessarily acts of desperation and literal last resort.

Don't forget that Christianity has their own handy Suicide Attack propaganda package in the story of Sampson.

It doesn't need to be linked to Jesus to be part of the meme.

Other than the story of Sampson being included in the Old Testament which most Christian sects consider to be Holy Scripture, there's no real connection between the Sampson story and the teachings of Jesus.

Beyond that, Sampson's suicidal destruction of the Philistine palace was an act of revenge on the people who had imprisoned him and poked out his eyes. It was a personal matter, not a political one.

So, an act of revenge against the people who killed your family is not the basis for a suicide attack? You realize part of my job when I was in Iraq was studying the motivation and patterns of suicide bomber grooming cells?

Suicide bombers are groomed from personal reasons, not political ones. The politics are often superimposed on the personal for most actual bombers.

 

[Bronzeage]

Every personal decision is made for personal reasons. In the case of Sampson, he attacked the people who had injured him. It was not a group of random Philistine citizens who happened to be in the marketplace, even though Sampson was known to murder random Philistines, which is another divergence from Christian teaching.

 

[Gospel]

Don't Westerners worship a guy who comitted suicide-by-police, and indeed ritually consume his blood in a grotesque ceremony on Sundays? Shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

Not really a reasonable summary of the story, and in any case Jesus did not strap explosives to disciples and send them to blow themselves up, murdering Roman civilians or fellow Jews belonging to rival factions. So I do not follow how this is in any way analogous to Islamist suicide bombers in Afghanistan.

It is a gateway drug though.

 

[lpetrich]

I don't know where best to put this, but here is a rather curious refugee from the Taliban.

‘Afghan Girl’ From 1985 National Geographic Cover Takes Refuge in Italy - The New York Times - "Sharbat Gula, whose haunting portrait was featured by the magazine more than three decades ago, was evacuated to Rome after the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan."

Sharbat Gula, who became an international symbol of war-torn Afghanistan after her portrait at a refugee camp was published on the cover of National Geographic magazine in 1985, was evacuated to Rome after her country fell to the Taliban, the Italian government said Thursday.

...
Ms. Gula, now in her late 40s and the mother of several children, was believed to be 12 when Steve McCurry photographed her, with a piercing, green-eyed stare, in 1984 in a refugee camp in Pakistan. He did not learn her name until 2002, when he found her in the mountains of Afghanistan and was able to verify her identity.

A 2002 National Geographic article about Mr. McCurry’s search for her described the adult Ms. Gula: “Time and hardship had erased her youth. Her skin looks like leather. The geometry of her jaw has softened. The eyes still glare; that has not softened.”

In 2016, Ms. Gula was deported from Pakistan after being arrested on charges of obtaining false identity documents, a common practice among Afghans in Pakistan. ... On her arrival, the Afghan president at the time, Ashraf Ghani, gave her a warm welcome and provided her with a government-funded apartment.

...
Heather Barr, the associate director for women’s rights at Human Rights Watch, said that it was a particularly dangerous time to be a high-profile woman in Afghanistan. She said there had been cases of prominent women being threatened or intimidated, or feeling like they had no choice but to stay in hiding or change locations constantly to avoid attention.

“The Taliban don’t want women to be visible, and she’s an extremely visible Afghan woman,” Ms. Barr said of Ms. Gula.