• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Tampons, sterile cotton, sanitary pads contaminated with glyphosate - study

You ever try to eat two in one sitting?

I'd like to know if there is an underlying assumption of no glyphosate retention being assumed and if that is reasonable. I think researchers may model these things as having "half-lifes."

The serum half life of glyphosate in humans is about 3.1 hours, according to this report (which studied patients who had attempted to commit suicide by drinking the stuff - only 3.2% succeeded, despite being in rural Sri Lanka, with access to only rudimentary medical care).

Glyphosate just isn't that toxic to animals. That's why it is so popular - it has replaced herbicides like Paraquat, which were extremely toxic to animals, including humans.

image.png

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/04/30/is-glyphosate-used-with-some-gm-crops-dangerously-toxic-to-humans/
 
Scale matters a lot more when you are trying to point out that that sizes are different. However, in this case is this what is being pointed out? or is there some other difference being pointed out?

In this case the illustration is supposed to show the difference in distribution of glycogen within the cell between treatment and control.

Having one panel "zoomed in" and the other "zoomed out" makes such a visual comparison impossible.

I would also be interested to see if there are size differences between the glycogen blobs and the change in scale makes that assessment impossible.
 
I find it interesting that if you search for information on glyphosate via common public internet search engines, the results are absolutely dominated by "natural news" type websites that are selling you their organic goods. A handful of studies, some of seralini questionability, are on very loud repeat. Hundreds of other studies are buried. The studies that find problems with glyphosate pretty much all originate in countries that are in competition with U.S. agriculture.

It makes you wonder if either every scientist in the US is in on the !Monsanto! conspiracy or if there are folks outside the country with their own agenda.

As for the websites spreading the Seralini. Real irony is when they try to sell you chelation therapy while touting the Sri Lanka glyphosate paper as evidence of the evil of roundup.
 
I find it interesting that if you search for information on glyphosate via common public internet search engines, the results are absolutely dominated by "natural news" type websites that are selling you their organic goods. A handful of studies, some of seralini questionability, are on very loud repeat. Hundreds of other studies are buried. The studies that find problems with glyphosate pretty much all originate in countries that are in competition with U.S. agriculture.

It makes you wonder if either every scientist in the US is in on the !Monsanto! conspiracy or if there are folks outside the country with their own agenda.

As for the websites spreading the Seralini. Real irony is when they try to sell you chelation therapy while touting the Sri Lanka glyphosate paper as evidence of the evil of roundup.

And the latest one specifically for the 'strong' chelating properties of glyphosate. I'm wondering how it matches up against other naturally occurring chelating agents - say for example such as citrate...
 
The studies that find problems with glyphosate pretty much all originate in countries that are in competition with U.S. agriculture. It makes you wonder if either every scientist in the US is in on the !Monsanto! conspiracy or if there are folks outside the country with their own agenda.
Yes, I know America is just trying to help everyone. :D But if you don't want the ...help, then look out ;)

WikiLeaks: US targets EU over GM crops

The US embassy in Paris advised Washington to start a military-style trade war against any Euroxpean Union country which opposed genetically modified (GM) crops, newly released WikiLeaks cables show.

In response to moves by France to ban a Monsanto GM corn variety in late 2007, the ambassador, Craig Stapleton, a friend and business partner of former US president George Bush, asked Washington to penalise the EU and particularly countries which did not support the use of GM crops.

"Country team Paris recommends that we calibrate a target retaliation list that causes some pain across the EU since this is a collective responsibility, but that also focuses in part on the worst culprits.

"The list should be measured rather than vicious and must be sustainable over the long term, since we should not expect an early victory. Moving to retaliation will make clear that the current path has real costs to EU interests and could help strengthen European pro-biotech voices," said Stapleton, who with Bush co-owned the Dallas/Fort Worth-based Texas Rangers baseball team in the 1990s.
 
So...do we know why this is important considering the majority of the world wears cotton in one form or another every single day, sometimes 24/7/365?
 
So...do we know why this is important considering the majority of the world wears cotton in one form or another every single day, sometimes 24/7/365?

It isn't important. There are far more toxic things than Glyphosate absolutely everywhere; But it doesn't matter, because in the case of those toxins (as in this case) the quantities are too small to do anyone any harm. You would be much better served worrying about being hit by a meteorite, or getting cancer from the vinegar in your diet, or second-hand smoke from a guy three blocks away.

Detectable does not mean dangerous. The dose makes the poison; and with something as benign as Glyphosate you need a LOT of it to do any harm. As Barbos points out, even to get to the trace levels in the debunked study that claims to show kidney damage, you would need to eat a couple of pounds of cotton products daily; to get to a level that has reliably and repeatably be shown to cause harm in humans, you would need to eat two thousand tonnes of cotton products.

Unless you know someone who not only wears cotton 24/7/365, but also eats it when he is finished, this is a non-issue. It is just a beat up by the anti-Monsanto cult, for whom everything MUST point to the evil of one not particularly out of the ordinary bio-tech company.

Worrying about Glyphosate on sanitary pads causing health issues is a sane and rational as worrying that homosexuality will result in your home being destroyed by a tornado.
 
Yes, I know America is just trying to help everyone. :D But if you don't want the ...help, then look out ;)

WikiLeaks: US targets EU over GM crops

The US embassy in Paris advised Washington to start a military-style trade war against any Euroxpean Union country which opposed genetically modified (GM) crops, newly released WikiLeaks cables show.

In response to moves by France to ban a Monsanto GM corn variety in late 2007, the ambassador, Craig Stapleton, a friend and business partner of former US president George Bush, asked Washington to penalise the EU and particularly countries which did not support the use of GM crops.

"Country team Paris recommends that we calibrate a target retaliation list that causes some pain across the EU since this is a collective responsibility, but that also focuses in part on the worst culprits.

"The list should be measured rather than vicious and must be sustainable over the long term, since we should not expect an early victory. Moving to retaliation will make clear that the current path has real costs to EU interests and could help strengthen European pro-biotech voices," said Stapleton, who with Bush co-owned the Dallas/Fort Worth-based Texas Rangers baseball team in the 1990s.

Looks like economic dick wagging saber rattling more than scientific objections. Nothing new.

ADM got busted fixing corn prices. "The Fix is In" is a show that This American Life did about that particular corporate conspiracy that for some reason the US Government decided to prosecute. It is probably because ADM was screwing the Japanese on that one.

I look at what who is doing the hyping and what gets hyped. Rt.com hypes up a study in Sri Lanka that forwards a hypothesis that glyphosate is a significant factor in renal problems even though the paper noted that if glyphosate is the problem it is because it is interacting with large exposure to nephrotoxic heavy metals in workers that smoke, drink whoshotjohn, chew quat, and use no personal protection when applying tri-phosphate or glyphosate. I don't think the Russians really care about glyphosate safety. If they aren't using glyphosate to desiccate their wheat in preparation for harvest I bet they are using something nastier.

Then as I alluded to earlier, why are no American scientists duplicating Seralini? Has Monsanto bought all the ag research labs and environmental scientists in the country?
 
Then as I alluded to earlier, why are no American scientists duplicating Seralini?
Who will pay for it?
Has Monsanto bought all the ag research labs and environmental scientists in the country?
No but they are the largest funder of GMO research.

I can see you don't see a problem with the way America does these things, but I'm not sure why you are surprised that non Americans are skeptical.
 
So...do we know why this is important considering the majority of the world wears cotton in one form or another every single day, sometimes 24/7/365?

It's important because the evidence is that ultra low doses could damage liver and kidneys.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...yphosate-study&p=217631&viewfull=1#post217631

Conclusion
Our results suggest that chronic exposure to a GBH in an established laboratory animal toxicity model system at an ultra-low, environmental dose can result in liver and kidney damage with potential significant health implications for animal and human populations.
 
It's important because the evidence is that ultra low doses could damage liver and kidneys.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...yphosate-study&p=217631&viewfull=1#post217631

Conclusion
Our results suggest that chronic exposure to a GBH in an established laboratory animal toxicity model system at an ultra-low, environmental dose can result in liver and kidney damage with potential significant health implications for animal and human populations.

Except that that's not "The evidence", it is more "The outlier".

It would be ever so nice if we could declare things to be true after a single study hints that they might be, despite there being no known mechanism by which they could be true.

We could have perpetual motion machines in every home.

But we can't; because there is an important difference between 'the evidence' and 'one small bit of evidence that contradicts most of the other evidence'.

No matter how many times you quote yourself making a claim, it remains no better than it was the first time.
 
I know RT is not as good as Fox News but...
[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/YB-SHNtI864[/YOUTUBE]

Given what science has to say about GMO, if RT is claiming that GMO produces health problems and is citing "science" to support their claims, then they are no better than FOX News.
 
It's important because the evidence is that ultra low doses could damage liver and kidneys.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...yphosate-study&p=217631&viewfull=1#post217631

Except that that's not "The evidence", it is more "The outlier".

It would be ever so nice if we could declare things to be true after a single study hints that they might be, despite there being no known mechanism by which they could be true.

You are having some comprehension problems ...again. One study shows that it could be true. The fact that you are trying to twist my words is not surprising as it's all you've got, and you have really dug your heels in :D
 
I'd like to know if there is an underlying assumption of no glyphosate retention being assumed and if that is reasonable. I think researchers may model these things as having "half-lifes."

The serum half life of glyphosate in humans is about 3.1 hours, according to this report (which studied patients who had attempted to commit suicide by drinking the stuff - only 3.2% succeeded, despite being in rural Sri Lanka, with access to only rudimentary medical care).

Thanks for this info. I think that serum half-life is not completely irrelevant but these things are way more complicated. We are discussing vaginal insertion of a tampon. So does glyphosate have any impact at all to pathyways in the vagina? Note that different chemicals are present in the vagina than elsewhere in the body. Different tissue differentiation, different hormones, even different micro-organisms, etc. Does any pathway or reaction produce output which could have retention in the body? What half-life do these new chemicals have? What kinds of toxicity or other side effects might they have?

To be open, I am skeptical that low levels of glyphosate have significant impact on this area of the body. I do think that there is not a lot of opportunity for retention of chemicals during menstruation. I also think that since there has been research on correlations between glyphosate and female-specific side effects, that the risk is low.

To me, the importance of the op is that there are unintended consequences of what we do and some of those consequences may be pervasive. We will observe such consequences in the most shocking, unusual places (such as a woman's vagina). Taken as a whole, there should be some human concern for risk, not necessarily for any one observation, but for the collective observation of the pervasiveness--that glyphosate is essentially "everywhere."

There are other observations of changes in Western health and in the world environment which are also pervasive. The root causes of some of these things are unknown or unproven. For example, increased incidence of cancers and decline of various animal populations throughout the world. I believe at least some of these things it will turn out were caused by unintended consequences of what humans do. I think it's important to stop and think, to be humble, not dismissive necessarily of every idea or we will not reach the proper conclusions.

bilby said:
Glyphosate just isn't that toxic to animals. That's why it is so popular - it has replaced herbicides like Paraquat, which were extremely toxic to animals, including humans.

View attachment 4595

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/04/30/is-glyphosate-used-with-some-gm-crops-dangerously-toxic-to-humans/

LD50 is one way to measure lethality which specifically we are NOT discussing in context and which we have said a couple of times is NOT being discussed in context. A chemical need not be lethal at concentration X to be harmful at concentration Y where Y << X. The ways in which harm is evidenced also need not be highly correlated to the ways in which lethality is evidenced in the LD50 chart. So the lethal concentration could create a coma and brain death where very low doses may harm some pathway in the kidneys or other organs. The lethal concentration may also harm the pathway in kidneys but the hypothetical brain death could occur first. Dose responses are also not linear.

An example is vitamin A toxicity. Vitamin A toxicity can include symptoms that affect the liver. For vitamin A toxicity you will observe some symptoms similar to jaundice because of liver dysfunction. You may observe yellow/orange skin as with jaundice. You may also observe hair loss. There are a number of other problems, too. Wikipedia lists 30 or so. However, if you look at an LD50 chart of vitamin A lethality you will see different kinds of symptoms such as unconsciousness, reproductive toxins, and convulsions.

LD50 of vitamin A is 2000, LD50 of glyphosate is 5600. However, a much lower dose than 2000 mg/kg of vitamin A over time can cause toxicity. For example, 1500IU/kg retinol can be toxic for children. IU for retinol is only .3 ug. The LD50 versus toxic dose is different by several orders of magnitude. To review:
LD50 (vit A) = 2000 mg/kg body weight
toxic dose (vit A) = 1500 IU/kg per day = 1500*.3ug/kg body weight per day = 1500*.3ug/kg body weight per day = 0.45mg/kg body weight per day.

So a single toxic dose (which would be done each day for quite a lot of days) is only ~= 1/5000th of the single lethal dose.
 
Scale matters a lot more when you are trying to point out that that sizes are different. However, in this case is this what is being pointed out? or is there some other difference being pointed out?

In this case the illustration is supposed to show the difference in distribution of glycogen within the cell between treatment and control.

Having one panel "zoomed in" and the other "zoomed out" makes such a visual comparison impossible.

It doesn't. Even if I scaled both images down to 50% of their current sizes, the difference in glycogen dispersion would still be obvious.

Which makes me ask you this question:
When you personally are looking for what you are calling "glycogen blobs" in these two images what exactly are you looking for? Please describe the characteristics of a glycogen blob.

scombrid said:
I would also be interested to see if there are size differences between the glycogen blobs and the change in scale makes that assessment impossible.

Why would you expect to see a difference in glycogen size blobs? This also does not appear to be relevant to your original claim of the paper not demonstrating its claims because of images not at the same scale.
 
I know RT is not as good as Fox News but...
[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/YB-SHNtI864[/YOUTUBE]

Given what science has to say about GMO, if RT is claiming that GMO produces health problems and is citing "science" to support their claims, then they are no better than FOX News.

As a newcomer to this political issue, it at least seems to me like both claims that all pro-gmo science is from Monsanto and all anti-gmo science is from Russia sound like politicking. Maybe that isn't quite what is being said but it sounds like nanny-nanny-booboo to me. Some of the things in thread sound like each of these. I will add a caveat that it's easy to recognize the anti-Monsanto rhetoric, but it might not be as easy to recognize some other .com sites which peddle a message pretending to be objective.

In any case, I'd start my long-winded position with what I had written above in a post:
To me, the importance of the op is that there are unintended consequences of what we do and some of those consequences may be pervasive. We will observe such consequences in the most shocking, unusual places (such as a woman's vagina). Taken as a whole, there should be some human concern for risk, not necessarily for any one observation, but for the collective observation of the pervasiveness--that glyphosate is essentially "everywhere."

There are other observations of changes in Western health and in the world environment which are also pervasive. The root causes of some of these things are unknown or unproven. For example, increased incidence of cancers and decline of various animal populations throughout the world. I believe at least some of these things it will turn out were caused by unintended consequences of what humans do. I think it's important to stop and think, to be humble, not dismissive necessarily of every idea or we will not reach the proper conclusions.

Inasmuch as I could be critical of GMO's it is not directly because of GMO's. It may be because some people are so dismissive of unintended consequences, because of the pervasiveness of the products to the extent that they may replace wholesale diversity. Diversity is not an end in itself but it is good to have a lot of it. Diversity mitigates risk to an extent and there are probably a lot of other variables, creating a vast optimization problem in deciding how much diversity is good. Corporations creating monolithic characteristics in almost anything is also dangerous, whether the products are GMOs or whether they used old methods of hybridization.
 
Last edited:
It's important because the evidence is that ultra low doses could damage liver and kidneys.

http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...yphosate-study&p=217631&viewfull=1#post217631

Except that that's not "The evidence", it is more "The outlier".

It would be ever so nice if we could declare things to be true after a single study hints that they might be, despite there being no known mechanism by which they could be true.

We could have perpetual motion machines in every home.

But we can't; because there is an important difference between 'the evidence' and 'one small bit of evidence that contradicts most of the other evidence'.

No matter how many times you quote yourself making a claim, it remains no better than it was the first time.

You're on thin ice, Bilby. What is outying is that the results of the study are not congruent with your understanding or your desires. The why..we can only guess, but I am guessing more about you than the study. This study has been subjected to serious review. There really is no reason to apply the labels you are attempting to apply to the study. It is your prejudice that is most obvious.
 
Back
Top Bottom