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The 21st century may never top this and it's only 2015.

No, one could not.

Sure one can. Just provide an energy source in space with sufficient energy to decelerate lifted mass to zero or say about 1000-1500 mph horizontal by the time it reached significant atmosphere. Plenty of power available in space with which to power deceleration if one can apply it to the ship. Large array of solar cells and storage devises could provide enough power to supply a maglev assembly to bring the spacecraft to normal materials (titanium and the like) down, to say 1500 mph horizontal, to earth, I also presume maglev could also be used to put a craft into orbit (the high vacuum long length tunnel maglev rail system).

Power isn't enough unless you have some fixed object to react against.

I suspect such a launch system would need to insert the vehicle at about 10000 feet to avoid most of the atmosphere thereby minimizing additional G forces and velocity loss after vehicle enters atmosphere at end of tunnel.

First, to boost the ship to orbital velocity takes a few hundred miles if you want your crew to survive.

Second, 10,000' isn't anywhere near high enough to avoid brutal deceleration when you exit the booster.

Maybe a competent one could calculate the distance one would have to accelerate the vehicle at a 3 G rate to achieve escape velocity plus safety factor for drag after ship leaves tunnel and maglev propeller. Intuitively it seems pretty rational.

3G acceleration boosting to escape velocity = 1290 miles. That's quite a track. Note that once you have boosted to that speed the turning radius is 2591 miles if you want to not exceed your 3G limit. (And note that I am neglecting Earth's gravity here--both of these are actually going to be closer to 4G but I don't feel like figuring out the math.) Now, lets figure the track was at sea level until it turned up towards the ejection port at 10,000'. You're going to spend about 80 seconds on this turn--you'll be over 500 miles downrange--you have punched through a hell of a lot of atmosphere in the process. Now, drag goes up at the square of velocity. Google says the terminal velocity of the shuttle at the Earth's surface is about 400 mph but we need to reduce the drag by 1/3 due to the height of the ejection port. I'm still getting well over 2,500G. Your astronauts are paste. If you kept decelerating at that rate it would bring you to a stop in under 5 seconds. Again, I'm not going to take the time to work the math for how far you would actually go.
 
I keep coming back to that sentence. There's something about it that keeps bugging me. Let's disregard the economical qualification since it doesn't speak to our technological abilities.

Quick question: no hidden point, just a question regarding Earth's escape velocity. Is that a necessity based on a technological deficiency?
I'm afraid that I don't understand the question. Escape velocity is a matter of physical law - it doesn't have anything to do with putting stuff in Earth orbit. Escape velocity is the velocity that something would have to leave the surface of the Earth (assuming that there was no atmosphere and assuming a simple two body problem) for it not to be pulled back by gravity. Something leaving at approx. 25,000 MPH (again assuming no atmosphere and a two body problem) would continually be slowed by Earth's gravity reaching zero velocity (with respect to Earth) at infinity.

Putting something in orbit is a different problem. It doesn't matter how slowly something is lifted out of the atmosphere but for it to put in and remain in low Earth orbit (not fall back to Earth) it will have to be accelerated to almost 18,000 MPH tangential to the Earth's surface.

I hope that addresses you question.
I'm not sure why it's a matter of physical law, other than we know they won't be violated. Just guessing, but I'm thinking it's an atmospheric condition that changes at some altitude that puts a damper on things. I'm pretty sure the laws of nature are not changing, I don't have a reason to think gravity at such an altitude is substantively different at those altitudes (crossing my fingers in hopes I'm right on that one). This leaves me with thrust against a diminished atmosphere as the basis for the need for such great speed.

My thought processes are such that given the laws of nature as they are and gravity as it is, the velocity to escape the Earth's atmosphere can be substantially lowered with a technological breakthrough that counteracts the disadvantage that a diminished atmosphere brings.
 
magnetic levitation in space? what the fuck is that?

So long as you have a track to run on it works fine. It would make a dandy launch system for a big enough lunar base. For a mega-engineering project it can even be used from Earth-- Launch_loop. I can't imagine it being done for as little as that link is envisioning, though. Note that the main boost is performed out of the atmosphere.
 
I'm afraid that I don't understand the question. Escape velocity is a matter of physical law - it doesn't have anything to do with putting stuff in Earth orbit. Escape velocity is the velocity that something would have to leave the surface of the Earth (assuming that there was no atmosphere and assuming a simple two body problem) for it not to be pulled back by gravity. Something leaving at approx. 25,000 MPH (again assuming no atmosphere and a two body problem) would continually be slowed by Earth's gravity reaching zero velocity (with respect to Earth) at infinity.

Putting something in orbit is a different problem. It doesn't matter how slowly something is lifted out of the atmosphere but for it to put in and remain in low Earth orbit (not fall back to Earth) it will have to be accelerated to almost 18,000 MPH tangential to the Earth's surface.

I hope that addresses you question.
I'm not sure why it's a matter of physical law, other than we know they won't be violated. Just guessing, but I'm thinking it's an atmospheric condition that changes at some altitude that puts a damper on things. I'm pretty sure the laws of nature are not changing, I don't have a reason to think gravity at such an altitude is substantively different at those altitudes (crossing my fingers in hopes I'm right on that one). This leaves me with thrust against a diminished atmosphere as the basis for the need for such great speed.
Gravity decreases with the square of the distance from the gravitating mass. Other than that, I think you misunderstand putting stuff in orbit and how rockets work. Great speed isn't needed to get to space but is needed to stay there (not fall back to Earth). If we could build a ladder tall enough then you could climb it into space but if you jumped off the ladder then you would fall back to Earth unless you can jump 18,000 MPH directly away from the ladder - in which case you would go into orbit. As for rockets: they don't push against the atmosphere for thrust - the hot gas leaving very fast from the engine is reaction mass and as Newton explained for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. It works the same in the vacuum of space.
My thought processes are such that given the laws of nature as they are and gravity as it is, the velocity to escape the Earth's atmosphere can be substantially lowered with a technological breakthrough that counteracts the disadvantage that a diminished atmosphere brings.
Speed isn't needed to escape Earth's atmosphere. Helium balloons have escaped the overwhelming majority of Earth's atmosphere.
 
That path being to find a way to economically lift mass out of Earth's gravitational well. With our current technology that is with chemical rockets and dropping empty fuel tanks (multi-stage) along the way to reduce the mass being lifted is the most economical. This doesn't mean we have given up on alternatives. Materials science may soon give us a material that has enough tensile strength and low enough mass that we can construct a space elevator to lift our payloads our of Earth's gravity well on a cable, one end moored on Earth and the other end moored to a synchronous satellite. We can then forget about rockets except for those constructed in orbit to travel to other planets and moons in the solar system.
I keep coming back to that sentence. There's something about it that keeps bugging me. Let's disregard the economical qualification since it doesn't speak to our technological abilities.

Quick question: no hidden point, just a question regarding Earth's escape velocity. Is that a necessity based on a technological deficiency?

???
 
I'm not sure why it's a matter of physical law, other than we know they won't be violated. Just guessing, but I'm thinking it's an atmospheric condition that changes at some altitude that puts a damper on things. I'm pretty sure the laws of nature are not changing, I don't have a reason to think gravity at such an altitude is substantively different at those altitudes (crossing my fingers in hopes I'm right on that one). This leaves me with thrust against a diminished atmosphere as the basis for the need for such great speed.
Gravity decreases with the square of the distance from the gravitating mass. Other than that, I think you misunderstand putting stuff in orbit and how rockets work. Great speed isn't needed to get to space but is needed to stay there (not fall back to Earth). If we could build a ladder tall enough then you could climb it into space but if you jumped off the ladder then you would fall back to Earth unless you can jump 18,000 MPH directly away from the ladder - in which case you would go into orbit. As for rockets: they don't push against the atmosphere for thrust - the hot gas leaving very fast from the engine is reaction mass and as Newton explained for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. It works the same in the vacuum of space.
My thought processes are such that given the laws of nature as they are and gravity as it is, the velocity to escape the Earth's atmosphere can be substantially lowered with a technological breakthrough that counteracts the disadvantage that a diminished atmosphere brings.
Speed isn't needed to escape Earth's atmosphere. Helium balloons have escaped the overwhelming majority of Earth's atmosphere.
I watched some YouTube videos, but I'm confused about why speed is given versus distance. This brings me to orbit. In miles, what is the closest safe orbit (safe from quick orbital decay)? You speak of the ladder. Must the direction be away from the ladder vertically or perpendicular to the ladder?
 
Speed isn't needed to escape Earth's atmosphere. Helium balloons have escaped the overwhelming majority of Earth's atmosphere.
I watched some YouTube videos, but I'm confused about why speed is given versus distance. This brings me to orbit. In miles, what is the closest safe orbit (safe from quick orbital decay)? You speak of the ladder. Must the direction be away from the ladder vertically or perpendicular to the ladder?
Perpendicular, sort of. It doesn't have to be precisely 90 degrees, but the closer to 90 degrees the better, and how close to 90 degrees you need to be depends on how high up you are -- at 100 miles up you need to be very close to 90 degrees but at 1000 miles up you can get away with a lot of slop. John Glenn was 100 miles up, which is about as low as it's safe to orbit.

The simplest way to understand why escape velocity depends on distance is to imagine the sun and the other planets gone. Go out ridiculously far away, say a billion miles, and drop a rock. Because the Earth's gravity is next to nothing at that distance, the rock will fall to Earth incredibly slowly, taking millions of years. But gravity gets stronger as you get close to Earth, and the rock will speed up a lot in the last few days just before it hits. It will hit the atmosphere at 25,000 mph. When the rock is still, say, 22,000 miles away, it won't be going as fast as that, because it's still got 22,000 more miles of falling and speeding up to do. It will only have sped up to about 10,000 mph. The point is, "escape velocity" is just the name for running that whole scenario in reverse. The laws of physics are almost completely symmetrical, which means if you throw a rock straight up from the top of the atmosphere at 25,000 miles per hour, an hour and a half or so later when it's 22,000 miles up, it will have slowed down by 15,000 mph -- it will have slowed down exactly as much as the dropped rock would speed up during that last 22,000 miles of fall. Up or down, the 10,000 mph it's going when it's 22,000 miles up is the Earth's escape velocity for 22,000 miles above the ground.

Once you understand escape velocity, orbital velocity is simple. The speed of a circular orbit at any given height is just the escape velocity at that height divided by the square root of 2, about 1.4. So the speed of a low circular orbit is 25,000 / 1.4, about 18,000 mph. At any speed below that you won't be able to maintain orbit at that height -- you'll fall into a lower orbit or reenter the atmosphere. At any speed intermediate between circular orbital velocity and escape velocity, you'll get an elliptical orbit that repeatedly carries you up further into space than your starting point and then brings you back down.

Which brings us back to your original question about a possible future technological breakthrough that counteracts the need for incredible speeds. Yes, we know of one. It's called a "space elevator". Imagine we put a big space station in orbit 22,000 miles up. Escape velocity is only 10,000 mph at that height. So imagine we dangle a 22,000 mile long cable from the space station all the way down to the surface of the Earth. Then you don't have to ever go 25,000 mph to escape from the Earth. You just grab onto the cable and climb up as slowly as you like. You can build a cable car that grips the cable with drive wheels, and get into space using an electric motor to climb at 22 mph for 1000 hours. Then you can launch your rocket to Mars at only 10,000 mph instead of at 25,000 mph. It's even better if all you want is to get into orbit -- then you only have to launch at 10,000 / 1.4 = 7,000 mph. And here's the wonderful bit: the cable is hanging from a space station that's already in orbit, which means that by the time you get to the top of the cable, you're already going 7,000 mph. You've just spent the last 1000 hours gently speeding up to 7,000 mph at an acceleration of 7 miles per hour per hour -- a g-force of about 1/10,000th. When you get to the top you can get into orbit just by letting go of the cable.

Now here's the downside, the part that means we need a technological breakthrough. When you're 22,000 miles up, and you're going 7,000 mph in a circle around the Earth, one orbit will take 24 hours. That means the space station hovers over one spot over the equator as the Earth turns below it. That means the bottom of the cable can be anchored to the ground instead of dragging along the surface at hundreds or thousands of miles per hour, which would make it tricky to grab on. I.e., you can't do this space age Indian rope trick from only a hundred miles up, because the space station will orbit too fast. The cable really has to be 22,000 miles long. Nobody knows how to make a cable 22,000 miles long that won't break from its own weight.
 
magnetic levitation in space? what the fuck is that?

So long as you have a track to run on it works fine. It would make a dandy launch system for a big enough lunar base. For a mega-engineering project it can even be used from Earth-- Launch_loop. I can't imagine it being done for as little as that link is envisioning, though. Note that the main boost is performed out of the atmosphere.
That's not levitation, that's electromagnetic propulsion.
 
What is the technological impediment keeping us from taking a craft to space and back twice without the need for losing part of our craft or using materials not apart of the craft?

For instance, suppose we create a hybrid craft that can operate either as an airplane or rocket. We should be able to take off like a helicopter and fly to and land at another airport, and without refueling or safety inspections, take off again and travel 300 miles into space, stay a few hours and return back to the airport, lift off again and make our way back to the original airport we first started from, then do the entire thing a second time ... Airport to airport, to space and back to airport and airport. All of this without an earthbound apparatus to facilitate the journey. No rocket platforms, no losing part of our craft in the process, no refueling, no nothing.

Oh, and for fun, we can limit our speed to 300mph.
 
What is the technological impediment keeping us from taking a craft to space and back twice without the need for losing part of our craft or using materials not apart of the craft?
We could probably do that but it would be damned expensive.

The concerns are gravity, mass, and sufficient energy to move that mass. Imagine you want to drive from Point Barrow, Alaska to Tierra del Fuego, Argentina. You have the choice of using a small fuel efficient car but have to stop every few hundred miles to refuel because you aren't carrying the mass of the necessary fuel and fuel tanks with you or to use a tanker truck to carry enough fuel to make the whole trip without stopping. Which sounds more reasonable?

The gas stations along the way would be analogous to the external fuel tanks or booster rockets that are dropped so that the rocket doesn't have to accelerate their mass into orbit.
 
What is the technological impediment keeping us from taking a craft to space and back twice without the need for losing part of our craft or using materials not apart of the craft?

For instance, suppose we create a hybrid craft that can operate either as an airplane or rocket. We should be able to take off like a helicopter and fly to and land at another airport, and without refueling or safety inspections, take off again and travel 300 miles into space, stay a few hours and return back to the airport, lift off again and make our way back to the original airport we first started from, then do the entire thing a second time ... Airport to airport, to space and back to airport and airport. All of this without an earthbound apparatus to facilitate the journey. No rocket platforms, no losing part of our craft in the process, no refueling, no nothing.

Oh, and for fun, we can limit our speed to 300mph.

What is the neurological impediment keeping you from from reading the thread and understanding that your question was answered already? :)
 
So long as you have a track to run on it works fine. It would make a dandy launch system for a big enough lunar base. For a mega-engineering project it can even be used from Earth-- Launch_loop. I can't imagine it being done for as little as that link is envisioning, though. Note that the main boost is performed out of the atmosphere.
That's not levitation, that's electromagnetic propulsion.

The launch loop provides the physical support to hold the track out of the atmosphere. You would use a maglev system on the track in order to accelerate, though.
 
What is the technological impediment keeping us from taking a craft to space and back twice without the need for losing part of our craft or using materials not apart of the craft?

For instance, suppose we create a hybrid craft that can operate either as an airplane or rocket. We should be able to take off like a helicopter and fly to and land at another airport, and without refueling or safety inspections, take off again and travel 300 miles into space, stay a few hours and return back to the airport, lift off again and make our way back to the original airport we first started from, then do the entire thing a second time ... Airport to airport, to space and back to airport and airport. All of this without an earthbound apparatus to facilitate the journey. No rocket platforms, no losing part of our craft in the process, no refueling, no nothing.

Oh, and for fun, we can limit our speed to 300mph.

Going to space without refueling? To go to space you need about 90% of your craft as fuel. To do it again you'll still need 90% of your craft as fuel--that means your initial launch must have been 99% fuel.

Now, mass ratios that high are just barely possible--but not without discarding an awful lot of the craft in the process.
 
What is the technological impediment keeping us from taking a craft to space and back twice without the need for losing part of our craft or using materials not apart of the craft?

For instance, suppose we create a hybrid craft that can operate either as an airplane or rocket. We should be able to take off like a helicopter and fly to and land at another airport, and without refueling or safety inspections, take off again and travel 300 miles into space, stay a few hours and return back to the airport, lift off again and make our way back to the original airport we first started from, then do the entire thing a second time ... Airport to airport, to space and back to airport and airport. All of this without an earthbound apparatus to facilitate the journey. No rocket platforms, no losing part of our craft in the process, no refueling, no nothing.

Oh, and for fun, we can limit our speed to 300mph.

What is the neurological impediment keeping you from from reading the thread and understanding that your question was answered already? :)
The trick is trying to find the right question. If we could harness and direct with precision in a safe manner a lighter and less volumous energy through (oh say) the learned advances of our biggest bombs, perhaps we could overcome obstacles--instead of avoiding them. Goals can be obtained by avoiding problems, but when the paths not taken due to problem avoidance aren't explored, we miss opportunities.

What is the energy output required for stasis? If we launched a spaceship (with no goal of going into space) with the sole intention of it hovering at 50 miles above the ground, how much energy is required to maintain no to very little velocity as it fights gravity? Not the energy to get it there...just to keep it there.
 
What is the technological impediment keeping us from taking a craft to space and back twice without the need for losing part of our craft or using materials not apart of the craft?

For instance, suppose we create a hybrid craft that can operate either as an airplane or rocket. We should be able to take off like a helicopter and fly to and land at another airport, and without refueling or safety inspections, take off again and travel 300 miles into space, stay a few hours and return back to the airport, lift off again and make our way back to the original airport we first started from, then do the entire thing a second time ... Airport to airport, to space and back to airport and airport. All of this without an earthbound apparatus to facilitate the journey. No rocket platforms, no losing part of our craft in the process, no refueling, no nothing.

Oh, and for fun, we can limit our speed to 300mph.

Going to space without refueling? To go to space you need about 90% of your craft as fuel. To do it again you'll still need 90% of your craft as fuel--that means your initial launch must have been 99% fuel.

Now, mass ratios that high are just barely possible--but not without discarding an awful lot of the craft in the process.
Maybe we should apply what's-his-name's third law to something other than fuel.
 
What is the energy output required for stasis? If we launched a spaceship (with no goal of going into space) with the sole intention of it hovering at 50 miles above the ground, how much energy is required to maintain no to very little velocity as it fights gravity? Not the energy to get it there...just to keep it there.
It depends solely on the amount of mass you want hanging there. The force required would be whatever is necessary to impart 1G acceleration (exactly countering the 1G of Earth's gravity) for that mass. How much energy is required to hold 1 pound straight out at arm's length for however many hours you want? 10 pounds? 100 pounds?

ETA:
For a small, five ton craft you would need a sustained 10,000 pounds of thrust from its jets (or rockets) directed straight down for it to remain stationary. A more massive craft would need proportionally more thrust.
 
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What is the technological impediment keeping us from taking a craft to space and back twice without the need for losing part of our craft or using materials not apart of the craft?

For instance, suppose we create a hybrid craft that can operate either as an airplane or rocket. We should be able to take off like a helicopter and fly to and land at another airport, and without refueling or safety inspections, take off again and travel 300 miles into space, stay a few hours and return back to the airport, lift off again and make our way back to the original airport we first started from, then do the entire thing a second time ... Airport to airport, to space and back to airport and airport. All of this without an earthbound apparatus to facilitate the journey. No rocket platforms, no losing part of our craft in the process, no refueling, no nothing.

Oh, and for fun, we can limit our speed to 300mph.

That last part is your biggest obstacle. NASA defines "space" as 60 miles up. Your jet helicopter engines will stop working around 10 miles up, meaning your rocket is going to have to hold you up against gravity for the top 50 miles. At 300 mph it's going to take you 10 minutes to go up 50 miles. (It will take another 10 minutes to go back down 50 miles, but let's say you have a futuristic super-parachute that can slow your descent to 300 mph even in near-vacuum.) You want to do it twice without refueling, so that means your rocket has to support its weight against gravity for 20 minutes. Your rocket is mostly fuel, which means your fuel has to support itself against gravity for 20 minutes. (It also has to support your rocket engine, tanks, crew, helicopter rotors, etc., but those only make the problem harder so let's neglect those.) There's a term of art for how long a particular rocket fuel can support its own weight against gravity, Specific Impulse. So, even neglecting everything else your fuel has to hold up, the absolute minimum requirement for what you want is some kind of rocket fuel with a specific impulse of 20 minutes. The best chemical rocket fuel specific impulse ever discovered is 9 minutes. A nuclear rocket will get you about 14 minutes.

ETA: Sorry, all that was skipping the "stay a few hours" part. A 20 minute specific impulse won't be enough.
 
Going to space without refueling? To go to space you need about 90% of your craft as fuel. To do it again you'll still need 90% of your craft as fuel--that means your initial launch must have been 99% fuel.



Now, mass ratios that high are just barely possible--but not without discarding an awful lot of the craft in the process.

Oh come on. Nuclear plane. There was some research done in the nineties on multi-function jets. The problem there would be in generating material for propulsion near the atmosphere/space boundary for scram jet configuration.
 
What is the technological impediment keeping us from taking a craft to space and back twice without the need for losing part of our craft or using materials not apart of the craft?

For instance, suppose we create a hybrid craft that can operate either as an airplane or rocket. We should be able to take off like a helicopter and fly to and land at another airport, and without refueling or safety inspections, take off again and travel 300 miles into space, stay a few hours and return back to the airport, lift off again and make our way back to the original airport we first started from, then do the entire thing a second time ... Airport to airport, to space and back to airport and airport. All of this without an earthbound apparatus to facilitate the journey. No rocket platforms, no losing part of our craft in the process, no refueling, no nothing.

Oh, and for fun, we can limit our speed to 300mph.

That last part is your biggest obstacle. NASA defines "space" as 60 miles up. Your jet helicopter engines will stop working around 10 miles up, meaning your rocket is going to have to hold you up against gravity for the top 50 miles. At 300 mph it's going to take you 10 minutes to go up 50 miles. (It will take another 10 minutes to go back down 50 miles, but let's say you have a futuristic super-parachute that can slow your descent to 300 mph even in near-vacuum.) You want to do it twice without refueling, so that means your rocket has to support its weight against gravity for 20 minutes. Your rocket is mostly fuel, which means your fuel has to support itself against gravity for 20 minutes. (It also has to support your rocket engine, tanks, crew, helicopter rotors, etc., but those only make the problem harder so let's neglect those.) There's a term of art for how long a particular rocket fuel can support its own weight against gravity, Specific Impulse. So, even neglecting everything else your fuel has to hold up, the absolute minimum requirement for what you want is some kind of rocket fuel with a specific impulse of 20 minutes. The best chemical rocket fuel specific impulse ever discovered is 9 minutes. A nuclear rocket will get you about 14 minutes.

ETA: Sorry, all that was skipping the "stay a few hours" part. A 20 minute specific impulse won't be enough.

We just need to use cavorite. :D

Unobtainium will solve most physical problems like this.
 
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