The 613 Biblical Commandments

[steve_bank]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

If you believe the Old Testament is the inpired word of god, here are all your commanments, a lot more than the death penalty for gays. Get to it or be damned.

 

[Lion IRC]

When I was a child my father said I had to (commanded me to) hold his hand while crossing the road. He also commanded me not to talk to strangers. And he forbade me from attempting joy rides in the family car. I was expressly forbidden from going near the fire place/matches or boiling water.

Yesterday I crossed the road without holding his or anyone else's hand, I freely spoke to strangers. I drove a car to and from my destination and when I got home I lit the fire and boiled a kettle of water.

Now. Did I break any of his numerous commandments?

Sorry? What's that you say? Some laws are just temporary?

http://absnospin.blogspot.com.au/2008/02/casuistic-law-vs-apodictic-law.html

 

[remez]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

If you believe the Old Testament is the inpired word of god, here are all your commanments, a lot more than the death penalty for gays. Get to it or be damned.

Again ??????? Really.

How many 1849 California laws and statutes does a man living in 2018 Dallas have to follow?

 

[ideologyhunter]

The California state code was not writ by Gawd himself.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

If you believe the Old Testament is the inpired word of god, here are all your commanments, a lot more than the death penalty for gays. Get to it or be damned.

Again ??????? Really.

How many 1849 California laws and statutes does a man living in 2018 Dallas have to follow?

It depends on how many of those are the eternal commands of an inerrant being who'll toss you into a lake of fire for eternity if you break any of them. Based on a quick perusal of the California laws and statutes, I'd put that number at 756 of them.

 

[Politesse]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

If you believe the Old Testament is the inpired word of god, here are all your commanments, a lot more than the death penalty for gays. Get to it or be damned.

Again ??????? Really.

How many 1849 California laws and statutes does a man living in 2018 Dallas have to follow?

It depends on how many of those are the eternal commands of an inerrant being who'll toss you into a lake of fire for eternity if you break any of them. Based on a quick perusal of the California laws and statutes, I'd put that number at 756 of them.

Most of those 613 laws have very clearly stated penalties attached to them, usually in the same or the next verse. None of those penalties are being thrown into a lake of fire for eternity.

I note that California was not a monarchy with clearly defined laws and consequences in 1849...

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It depends on how many of those are the eternal commands of an inerrant being who'll toss you into a lake of fire for eternity if you break any of them. Based on a quick perusal of the California laws and statutes, I'd put that number at 756 of them.

Most of those 613 laws have very clearly stated penalties attached to them, usually in the same or the next verse. None of those penalties are being thrown into a lake of fire for eternity.

Ya, for instance, if a man has sex with a dog, you have to kill the dog. That shit's just cold. What the hell did the dog do wrong?

I don't see how the Bible can be taken as a legitimate source for moral codes without a decent answer to that question.

 

[steve_bank]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

If you believe the Old Testament is the inpired word of god, here are all your commanments, a lot more than the death penalty for gays. Get to it or be damned.

Again ??????? Really.

How many 1849 California laws and statutes does a man living in 2018 Dallas have to follow?

Yes, and that makes modern protetant Christianity a Chinese restaurant menu. Pick one from column A and one from column B.

A
Over the years I got a good first hand sense on how many Christians do take the OT as absolute. A significant percentage.

My point in the OP and the 613 commandments is why pick solely on gays?

In the gospels one of few things directly attributed to Christ was reinforcing the prohibition on divorce. A serious offense in the times, equated to fornication if you remarried.

Seems like conservatives would be as outraged over divorce as gays. Especially high profile Christian politicians who divorce.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

When I was a child my father said I had to (commanded me to) hold his hand while crossing the road. He also commanded me not to talk to strangers. And he forbade me from attempting joy rides in the family car. I was expressly forbidden from going near the fire place/matches or boiling water.

Yesterday I crossed the road without holding his or anyone else's hand, I freely spoke to strangers. I drove a car to and from my destination and when I got home I lit the fire and boiled a kettle of water.

Now. Did I break any of his numerous commandments?

Sorry? What's that you say? Some laws are just temporary?

http://absnospin.blogspot.com.au/2008/02/casuistic-law-vs-apodictic-law.html

Well, apparently man is no longer fallen or in need of God’s rules in order to live in peace.

 

[Lion IRC]

Living in peace would be following God's rule.
BTW - the Fall wasn't irreversible. There is a remedy for original sin - salvation.

 

[abaddon]

Living in peace would be following God's rule.
BTW - the Fall wasn't irreversible. There is a remedy for original sin - salvation.

Living in peace involves recognizing myths when you see them. The hilarity of "the theist perspective" is the myths are horrific ones from desert-dwelling diphits who couldn't figure out why their lives were harsh.

"Why?" they asked.

Did "because we live in a fucking desert" occur to them? Nah... not elaborate enough to inform their lives with authentic meaning, I guess.

"Cuz we deserve the very worst!" is what they came up with. Then they had to figure out how to deal with their own awfulness (their "fall" into "sin"). So misery got piled on misery. The need for greater peace of mind was made by the mind and "salvation" is from self-torment.

You could just drop the metaphysical storying and the needless rules that go with it.

 

[steve_bank]

Living in peace would be following God's rule.
BTW - the Fall wasn't irreversible. There is a remedy for original sin - salvation.

You must not be reading the same bible as me.


The major problem I have with Chruistians is that with not a lot of rules in the bible presume to know the will and intent of an all powerful deity. The result being things like 'god hates fags'. Chritians simply say they know what god wants, so it is so.

The Catholics have the pope who in the faith is taken to be god's word on Earth on morality and matters of faith. The pope said birth control is contray to god, so Catholics are prohibited.

To the Hebrews depicted in the bible, it was peace through superior firepower, IOW the most powerful god who made Hebrews a chosen special people.

 

[Malintent]

Or, the simplest most obviously evident explanation...

It simply ain't so. Not a word of it.

Solved.

 

[Morgan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

If you believe the Old Testament is the inpired word of god, here are all your commanments, a lot more than the death penalty for gays. Get to it or be damned.

I've never understood why Christians are so obsessed with what is written in the OT. The laws there are only for Jews. Jews form less that 0.25% of the world population, of those only a fraction really try to follow the 613.

And anyway, as far as I understand the Gospels, didn't Jesus 'fulfil the law'.? (rhetorical question for believers)

 

[remez]

I've never understood why Christians are so obsessed with what is written in the OT. The laws there are only for Jews.

I never met a Christian obsessed over the OT because of the Jewish law.

 

[Jobar]

When I was a child my father said I had to (commanded me to) hold his hand while crossing the road. He also commanded me not to talk to strangers. And he forbade me from attempting joy rides in the family car. I was expressly forbidden from going near the fire place/matches or boiling water.

Yesterday I crossed the road without holding his or anyone else's hand, I freely spoke to strangers. I drove a car to and from my destination and when I got home I lit the fire and boiled a kettle of water.

Now. Did I break any of his numerous commandments?

Sorry? What's that you say? Some laws are just temporary?

http://absnospin.blogspot.com.au/2008/02/casuistic-law-vs-apodictic-law.html

So, can you tell us fallible human beings how we are to determine which of God's laws are relative, situational and temporary, and thus can safely be ignored without risking hellfire; and which ones are absolute and eternal, never to be broken without incurring God's wrath?

(Speaking from your own fallible humanity, and knowing about such things as literalists and Westboro Baptist Church, of course.)

 

[Malintent]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

If you believe the Old Testament is the inpired word of god, here are all your commanments, a lot more than the death penalty for gays. Get to it or be damned.

I've never understood why Christians are so obsessed with what is written in the OT. The laws there are only for Jews. Jews form less that 0.25% of the world population, of those only a fraction really try to follow the 613.

And anyway, as far as I understand the Gospels, didn't Jesus 'fulfil the law'.? (rhetorical question for believers)

If the laws in the OT are only for the Jews, then does that mean that the laws in the NT are only for the Christians?

In other words, the entire notion of evangelizing... getting others to follow those laws.. is inappropriate? If there are no laws (in the OT) for non-Christians, then non-Christians can never break any of those rules and can never be sent to hell (or to heaven).

 

[steve_bank]

The first believers were Jewish heretics. In the gospels JC was a knowledgeable rabbi.

From what I read in a history of Christianity over the first century with urbanization believers developed an identity separate from Jews, and coopted the OT as exclusively their own.

As I understand the reasoning, the Jews were the chosen people of god. When Jesus came along the Old Mosaic Cotenant with god, Torah or Old Testament , was replaced by a new covenant or testament that was open to all through Jesus. The gospels represented a new bargain with god that ended Mosaic Law.Jews missed the boat so to speak.

I heard a Christian say that the Leviticus dietary laws no longer applied because the old covenant no longer applied. Of course then why persecute gays. It is the Chinese menu approach in Christianity.

 

[Politesse]

The first believers were Jewish heretics. In the gospels JC was a knowledgeable rabbi.

From what I read in a history of Christianity over the first century with urbanization believers developed an identity separate from Jews, and coopted the OT as exclusively their own.

As I understand the reasoning, the Jews were the chosen people of god. When Jesus came along the Old Mosaic Cotenant with god, Torah or Old Testament , was replaced by a new covenant or testament that was open to all through Jesus. The gospels represented a new bargain with god that ended Mosaic Law.Jews missed the boat so to speak.

I heard a Christian say that the Leviticus dietary laws no longer applied because the old covenant no longer applied. Of course then why persecute gays. It is the Chinese menu approach in Christianity.

Though, that is a Reformation-era doctrine; Most Christians, being Roman Catholic, hold to a more Thomistic view which considers "moral law" binding and eternal but "ceremonial law" to be passing, and made irrelevant by ultimate fulfillment of ceremonial law in Christ's sacrifice. The New Testament is not considered a "new covenant" but rather a "new testament" to an already existing moral constant for which we are still responsible.

 

[Lion IRC]

When I was a child my father said I had to (commanded me to) hold his hand while crossing the road. He also commanded me not to talk to strangers. And he forbade me from attempting joy rides in the family car. I was expressly forbidden from going near the fire place/matches or boiling water.

Yesterday I crossed the road without holding his or anyone else's hand, I freely spoke to strangers. I drove a car to and from my destination and when I got home I lit the fire and boiled a kettle of water.

Now. Did I break any of his numerous commandments?

Sorry? What's that you say? Some laws are just temporary?

http://absnospin.blogspot.com.au/2008/02/casuistic-law-vs-apodictic-law.html

So, can you tell us fallible human beings how we are to determine which of God's laws are relative, situational and temporary, and thus can safely be ignored without risking hellfire; and which ones are absolute and eternal, never to be broken without incurring God's wrath?

(Speaking from your own fallible humanity, and knowing about such things as literalists and Westboro Baptist Church, of course.)

One step at a time.
Firstly - have I or have I not demonstrated that there's a problem with the bible skeptic's counter-apologetic argument about 613 enduring bible laws which you unreasonably (and mistakenly) think are still in force?

Do you concede the theoretical point that God's chosen people may have been under those laws temporarily in just the same way as, for example, governments enact temporary water restriction laws during times of drought?

Then some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." Acts 15:1 (NIV)