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The Asian Advantage

And genetic inheritance directs for all those behaviors, same as genetic inheritance directs for you being 6' 2'' tall and not 5' 1" tall.


Genes are not the only influence on behaviour. The environment/nurture also plays a role.

How much influence each of the above has on behaviour has not been resolved as human behavior is complex enough that a quantitative figure could possibly not be placed on these. This is because nature and culture interact in qualitatively different ways.
Much of it has been resolved, enough to know that genes are the predominant determinant, other variables being equal. We know this through twin studies, for example, when culture changes but genes obviously do not. It's puzzling that many people are in denial of this fact, that genes matter. Watch the video previously linked.

Anecdotally speaking we've all seen this genetic difference. What's interesting is that we all agree we have different natural talents and abilities physically. Why is it so difficult then for some people to accept that we also have these same differences intellectually and cognitively. The environment will simply select for which gets the nod, as it always has. Many people believe that anyone can be a neuroscientist or mathematician but those same people accept that it takes certain physical qualities to become great athletes in a given sport.

Perhaps it's societally beneficial to pretend that we're all the same in every cognitive way. Obviously that's a behavior that has been selected for in many people.
 
Genes are not the only influence on behaviour. The environment/nurture also plays a role.

How much influence each of the above has on behaviour has not been resolved as human behavior is complex enough that a quantitative figure could possibly not be placed on these. This is because nature and culture interact in qualitatively different ways.
Much of it has been resolved, enough to know that genes are the predominant determinant, other variables being equal. We know this through twin studies, for example, when culture changes but genes obviously do not. It's puzzling that many people are in denial of this fact, that genes matter. Watch the video previously linked.

Anecdotally speaking we've all seen this genetic difference. What's interesting is that we all agree we have different natural talents and abilities physically. Why is it so difficult then for some people to accept that we also have these same differences intellectually and cognitively. The environment will simply select for which gets the nod, as it always has. Many people believe that anyone can be a neuroscientist or mathematician but those same people accept that it takes certain physical qualities to become great athletes in a given sport.

Perhaps it's societally beneficial to pretend that we're all the same in every cognitive way. Obviously that's a behavior that has been selected for in many people.


Show me the evidence for what you are saying, that genes are the predominant determinant. If you cant then you are just pretending, which could indeed be a behavior that is selected for in some people.

Me, I prefer to go by the science and the evidence.

Oh and nobody but you claimed that we are all the same in every cognitive way, ie, you claim that entire groups of people, entire populations have the same cognitive abilities, ie Asians, the Japanese, etc.
 
Much of it has been resolved, enough to know that genes are the predominant determinant, other variables being equal. We know this through twin studies, for example, when culture changes but genes obviously do not. It's puzzling that many people are in denial of this fact, that genes matter. Watch the video previously linked.

Anecdotally speaking we've all seen this genetic difference. What's interesting is that we all agree we have different natural talents and abilities physically. Why is it so difficult then for some people to accept that we also have these same differences intellectually and cognitively. The environment will simply select for which gets the nod, as it always has. Many people believe that anyone can be a neuroscientist or mathematician but those same people accept that it takes certain physical qualities to become great athletes in a given sport.

Perhaps it's societally beneficial to pretend that we're all the same in every cognitive way. Obviously that's a behavior that has been selected for in many people.


Show me the evidence for what you are saying, that genes are the predominant determinant. If you cant then you are just pretending, which could indeed be a behavior that is selected for in some people.

Me, I prefer to go by the science and the evidence.

Oh and nobody but you claimed that we are all the same in every cognitive way, ie, you claim that entire groups of people, entire populations have the same cognitive abilities, ie Asians, the Japanese, etc.
Watch the previously linked video for starters.

Not claiming they have the same cognitive abilities, only that certain abilities and behaviors have been selected for over others for geographic, environmental, ancestral, etc reasons. And nature is always serving up new recipes while holding on to old recipes that conferred survival advantage. This is basic stuff. Groups of people are different genetically than other groups of people in specific genetic traits. We can even trace populations over time by measuring these genetic differences. And a small genetic difference can make a huge difference. If you watch the video you may understand how.

Cognitive ability is ultimately a physical difference in genetics. It doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it is a fact.
 
Show me the evidence for what you are saying, that genes are the predominant determinant. If you cant then you are just pretending, which could indeed be a behavior that is selected for in some people.

Me, I prefer to go by the science and the evidence.

Oh and nobody but you claimed that we are all the same in every cognitive way, ie, you claim that entire groups of people, entire populations have the same cognitive abilities, ie Asians, the Japanese, etc.
Watch the previously linked video for starters.

Not claiming they have the same cognitive abilities, only that certain abilities and behaviors have been selected for over others for geographic, environmental, ancestral, etc reasons. And nature is always serving up new recipes while holding on to old recipes that conferred survival advantage. This is basic stuff. Groups of people are different genetically than other groups of people in specific genetic traits. We can even trace populations over time by measuring these genetic differences. And a small genetic difference can make a huge difference. If you watch the video you may understand how.

Cognitive ability is ultimately a physical difference in genetics. It doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it is a fact.

Theres nothing there dude to make me think you're not just pretending.

You say you're not claiming they have the same cognitive abilities then you contradict yourself by saying their abilities have been selected for.

Have a look at The Flynn Effect which was way too rapid for genetic selection to be the cause.
 
Steven Pinker's talk: Jews, genes and intelligence is a must watch to have a more educated understanding on this topic of intelligence and the genetic and cultural influences.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Beqtt42iDW8
It was not easy for me to grasp all he was saying but it seems he is saying the difference is genetic and that it has been selected for.

He said that the evidence is stronger in support of the hypothesis that the difference in the IQ advantage of Jews compared to the general population is genetic. He then goes on to provide that evidence. Additionally, the environmental explanation has some evidence but it is far weaker (for example, adoption studies show no correlation/effect on intelligence based on the family one is raised in), but it can not be ruled out.

He also provides strong evidence that a significant portion of intelligence is heritable from the biological parents based on twin studies.

He then goes on to discuss how, if genes are the explanation for the IQ advantage, how did this come to be? He then gives several hypotheses from a national selection standpoint to explain it and provides several lines of evidence in support of it (why Jews having greater intelligence, especially during the medieval period, was an advantage and made those with it more likely to reproduce and have large families). He also explains why a genetic drift explanation is less plausible and provides some evidence for this.
 
Watch the previously linked video for starters.

Not claiming they have the same cognitive abilities, only that certain abilities and behaviors have been selected for over others for geographic, environmental, ancestral, etc reasons. And nature is always serving up new recipes while holding on to old recipes that conferred survival advantage. This is basic stuff. Groups of people are different genetically than other groups of people in specific genetic traits. We can even trace populations over time by measuring these genetic differences. And a small genetic difference can make a huge difference. If you watch the video you may understand how.

Cognitive ability is ultimately a physical difference in genetics. It doesn't have to be a bad thing, but it is a fact.

Theres nothing there dude to make me think you're not just pretending.

You say you're not claiming they have the same cognitive abilities then you contradict yourself by saying their abilities have been selected for.

Have a look at The Flynn Effect which was way too rapid for genetic selection to be the cause.

No one is making the claim that the cause of the Flynn Effect is genetic.

It could be the case and is very likely to be the case that a significant portion of one's intelligence is affected by the environment. Did they get proper nutrition as a child? Did they suffer from debilitating diseases and sicknesses when young? Were they exposed to neurotoxins or other toxins? Have they received basic schooling?

It could be the case that things like these are the biggest determinant on intelligence. Once the vast majority of your population is no longer negatively affected by such environmental factors, the only remaining factors are your much smaller environmental factors (whatever they may be) and genetics.

The Flynn Effect is likely accounted for by the big environmental factors which no longer negatively affect anyone (or at least very few) in the developed world and continues to improve in the developing world.
 
More about Flynn and the Asian advantage :

Malcolm Gladwell said:
Flynn brings a similar precision to the question of whether Asians have a genetic advantage in I.Q., a possibility that has led to great excitement among I.Q. fundamentalists in recent years. Data showing that the Japanese had higher I.Q.s than people of European descent, for example, prompted the British psychometrician and eugenicist Richard Lynn to concoct an elaborate evolutionary explanation involving the Himalayas, really cold weather, premodern hunting practices, brain size, and specialized vowel sounds. The fact that the I.Q.s of Chinese-Americans also seemed to be elevated has led I.Q. fundamentalists to posit the existence of an international I.Q. pyramid, with Asians at the top, European whites next, and Hispanics and blacks at the bottom.

Here was a question tailor-made for James Flynn’s accounting skills. He looked first at Lynn’s data, and realized that the comparison was skewed. Lynn was comparing American I.Q. estimates based on a representative sample of schoolchildren with Japanese estimates based on an upper-income, heavily urban sample. Recalculated, the Japanese average came in not at 106.6 but at 99.2. Then Flynn turned his attention to the Chinese-American estimates. They turned out to be based on a 1975 study in San Francisco’s Chinatown using something called the Lorge-Thorndike Intelligence Test. But the Lorge-Thorndike test was normed in the nineteen-fifties. For children in the nineteen-seventies, it would have been a piece of cake. When the Chinese-American scores were reassessed using up-to-date intelligence metrics, Flynn found, they came in at 97 verbal and 100 nonverbal. Chinese-Americans had slightly lower I.Q.s than white Americans.

The Asian-American success story had suddenly been turned on its head. The numbers now suggested, Flynn said, that they had succeeded not because of their higher I.Q.s. but despite their lower I.Q.s. Asians were overachievers. In a nifty piece of statistical analysis, Flynn then worked out just how great that overachievement was. Among whites, virtually everyone who joins the ranks of the managerial, professional, and technical occupations has an I.Q. of 97 or above. Among Chinese-Americans, that threshold is 90. A Chinese-American with an I.Q. of 90, it would appear, does as much with it as a white American with an I.Q. of 97.

There should be no great mystery about Asian achievement. It has to do with hard work and dedication to higher education, and belonging to a culture that stresses professional success. But Flynn makes one more observation. The children of that first successful wave of Asian-Americans really did have I.Q.s that were higher than everyone else’s—coming in somewhere around 103. Having worked their way into the upper reaches of the occupational scale, and taken note of how much the professions value abstract thinking, Asian-American parents have evidently made sure that their own children wore scientific spectacles. “Chinese Americans are an ethnic group for whom high achievement preceded high I.Q. rather than the reverse,” Flynn concludes, reminding us that in our discussions of the relationship between I.Q. and success we often confuse causes and effects. “It is not easy to view the history of their achievements without emotion,” he writes. That is exactly right. To ascribe Asian success to some abstract number is to trivialize it.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/17/none-of-the-above
 
Isn't it really just a matter of ability to comply with and pass the courses at a specific type of school that you have in mind? You think there is something called intelligence when it is really simply a measure of a brain to function in a specific manner you call intelligence. When in fact....other brains are more attuned to passing other sorts of tests. Nobody needs to pretend that brains are all equal. That is not what it is all about. What we missing is that all these people with their different brains should have EQUAL HUMAN RIGHTS and not get caught up in false meritocratic bullshit. Merit only means compliance with a certain set of parameters and those are SOCIALLY DETERMINED.
IQ is a measure of a specific human behavior. I don't consider it that indicative of anything, especially its ability to predict success. Kids from identical parents differ markedly in IQ and employ different survival strategies. My view is that these survival strategies are primarily genetically determined, not culturally driven.
 
East asians of mongoloid descent tend to perform significantly better than other large racial/ethnic groups on mathematical and visuospatial reasoning tests, which are part of their higher IQ scores. And it is that "braininess" that has translated to higher earnings for those individuals, as well contributing to rapid economic growth in their countries of origin. First Japan then Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, Hong Kong and now China have demonstrated their ability in STEM and other manufacturing at a level that less gifted Africa and Latin America have not (and is largely incapable of)

And their performance is primarily do to their population's innate abilities, not their education systems. ...
OK, maxparrish, would you enjoy living with an eastern-Asian ruling class that thinks that "round-eyes" are only fit for low-paying menial jobs and not fit for any kind of leadership position?
 
East asians of mongoloid descent tend to perform significantly better than other large racial/ethnic groups on mathematical and visuospatial reasoning tests, which are part of their higher IQ scores. And it is that "braininess" that has translated to higher earnings for those individuals, as well contributing to rapid economic growth in their countries of origin. First Japan then Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, Hong Kong and now China have demonstrated their ability in STEM and other manufacturing at a level that less gifted Africa and Latin America have not (and is largely incapable of)

And their performance is primarily do to their population's innate abilities, not their education systems. ...
OK, maxparrish, would you enjoy living with an eastern-Asian ruling class that thinks that "round-eyes" are only fit for low-paying menial jobs and not fit for any kind of leadership position?

No, you're right. So perhaps we should not be importing the IQ impoverished, OR those races with superior IQ. Thanks for expanding my call to end immigration of all types.
 
Malcolm Gladwell said:
“Chinese Americans are an ethnic group for whom high achievement preceded high I.Q. rather than the reverse,” Flynn concludes, ...

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/17/none-of-the-above

This makes me think the achievement of Asian-Americans is based mostly in cultural advantages. Something about the culture of Asian-Americans offers the members of their group a head start in the race to success.

I suppose one way to figure out what that 'something' is is to compare Asian culture to the cultures of less successful populations to see where they differ.
 
More about Flynn and the Asian advantage :

Malcolm Gladwell said:
Flynn brings a similar precision to the question of whether Asians have a genetic advantage in I.Q., a possibility that has led to great excitement among I.Q. fundamentalists in recent years. Data showing that the Japanese had higher I.Q.s than people of European descent, for example, prompted the British psychometrician and eugenicist Richard Lynn to concoct an elaborate evolutionary explanation involving the Himalayas, really cold weather, premodern hunting practices, brain size, and specialized vowel sounds. The fact that the I.Q.s of Chinese-Americans also seemed to be elevated has led I.Q. fundamentalists to posit the existence of an international I.Q. pyramid, with Asians at the top, European whites next, and Hispanics and blacks at the bottom.
...

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/12/17/none-of-the-above

There is little point in providing us the opinion of New Yorker's 'so yesterday' legend in his own mind. He has made a cottage industry out of writing dumb counter-intuitive pap for the popular press, mostly based on mangled characterizations of other's serious work. Many writers have pointed out his disingenuousness.

Whether or not Flynn is accurately characterized, or presented in context, is problematical - coming from Gladwell, I wouldn't count on it.
 
OK, maxparrish, would you enjoy living with an eastern-Asian ruling class that thinks that "round-eyes" are only fit for low-paying menial jobs and not fit for any kind of leadership position?
No, you're right. So perhaps we should not be importing the IQ impoverished, OR those races with superior IQ. Thanks for expanding my call to end immigration of all types.
I did no such thing. maxparrish, I was asking how much you'd like it if the racial shoe was on the other foot, whether you would enjoy being treated as a member of an "inferior" race.
 

This makes me think the achievement of Asian-Americans is based mostly in cultural advantages. Something about the culture of Asian-Americans offers the members of their group a head start in the race to success.

I suppose one way to figure out what that 'something' is is to compare Asian culture to the cultures of less successful populations to see where they differ.
Yep, and Asian immigrant success is readily explicable by cultural factors.

The Flynn Effect doesn't rule out some genetic component, but it does mean it's an unnecessary hypothesis. Nor does it rule out heritability since culture is highly heritable.
 
More about Flynn and the Asian advantage :

There is little point in providing us the opinion of New Yorker's 'so yesterday' legend in his own mind. He has made a cottage industry out of writing dumb counter-intuitive pap for the popular press, mostly based on mangled characterizations of other's serious work. Many writers have pointed out his disingenuousness.

Whether or not Flynn is accurately characterized, or presented in context, is problematical - coming from Gladwell, I wouldn't count on it.
Then it's a good thing we're not being asked to prefer some hysterical ad hom, isn't it? Flynn is a highly respected researcher. If you think Gladwell is misrepresenting him, you need to say how. Your dislike of The New Yorker is hardly illuminating.
 
There is little point in providing us the opinion of New Yorker's 'so yesterday' legend in his own mind. He has made a cottage industry out of writing dumb counter-intuitive pap for the popular press, mostly based on mangled characterizations of other's serious work. Many writers have pointed out his disingenuousness.

Whether or not Flynn is accurately characterized, or presented in context, is problematical - coming from Gladwell, I wouldn't count on it.
Then it's a good thing we're not being asked to prefer some hysterical ad hom, isn't it? Flynn is a highly respected researcher. If you think Gladwell is misrepresenting him, you need to say how. Your dislike of The New Yorker is hardly illuminating.

The point, which you seem to have missed, is that it has nothing to do with the New Yorker or Flynn. But it is Gladwell that has to backup his characterizations of Flynn's work in context. Flynn has had a long (and evolving) viewpoint on IQ, tending to come into more agreement on the importance and nature of IQ with those that he once disagreed with. In doing so he has published many articles in the last 30 years, as well as a few books. Gladwell's loose characterizations seem to be only vaguely related to a small portion of his work, and Gladwell fails to offer an actual quote or citation that a serious reader could check, preferring to tell the reader "a story" about the Flynn effect and one or two errors in Lynn's use of data in some unspecified study or work. With nary a quote or citation, one is left to "trust" Gladwell.

This won't do, especially for someone of Gladwell's dubious and non-scientific reputation. As he makes unsupported claims without a single quote, citation, or reference work, it remains little more than the opinion of a known mangler. Unless you'd like to do his source citations and descriptions that he (Gladwell) dodged, and come up with something solid , its not worth a spit to untangle.

I have no idea why you think I dislike the New Yorker, as opposed to their 'so yesterday' legend in his own mind. Read this before you ever think to quote Gladwell again:

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...id_and_goliath_misrepresents_the_science.html
 
Then it's a good thing we're not being asked to prefer some hysterical ad hom, isn't it? Flynn is a highly respected researcher. If you think Gladwell is misrepresenting him, you need to say how. Your dislike of The New Yorker is hardly illuminating.

The point, which you seem to have missed, is that it has nothing to do with the New Yorker or Flynn. But it is Gladwell that has to backup his characterizations of Flynn's work in context. Flynn has had a long (and evolving) viewpoint on IQ, tending to come into more agreement on the importance and nature of IQ with those that he once disagreed with. In doing so he has published many articles in the last 30 years, as well as a few books. Gladwell's loose characterizations seem to be only vaguely related to a small portion of his work, and Gladwell fails to offer an actual quote or citation that a serious reader could check, preferring to tell the reader "a story" about the Flynn effect and one or two errors in Lynn's use of data in some unspecified study or work. With nary a quote or citation, one is left to "trust" Gladwell.

This won't do, especially for someone of Gladwell's dubious and non-scientific reputation. As he makes unsupported claims without a single quote, citation, or reference work, it remains little more than the opinion of a known mangler. Unless you'd like to do his source citations and descriptions that he (Gladwell) dodged, and come up with something solid , its not worth a spit to untangle.
No problem. The claims are quite specific and direct from Flynn's book Asian Americans: Achievement Beyond IQ, which he summarises as follows :

James Flynn said:
This book shows that Asian Americans, particularly Chinese and Japanese Americans, achieve far beyond what their mean IQ would lead us to expect.

For example, the post-war generation of Chinese Americans, those born from 1945 to 1949, had a mean IQ of 98.5 with Whites set at 100. But their achievements in terms of education, occupation, and income suggest an estimated IQ about 21 points higher than their actual IQ. This huge IQ/achievement gap partitions into a threshold factor and a capitalization factor. Chinese Americans have a lower IQ threshold for entry into higher education and high-status occupations, that is, they can gain entry with a minimum IQ 7 points lower than White Americans. Chinese Americans capitalize more effectively on their available pool of talent: 78% above the Chinese minimum actually enter high-status occupations, as opposed to only 60% of Whites, which accounts for the remaining 14 points of their IQ/achievement gap. Japanese Americans overachieve in terms of their mean IQ by about 10 points, with 3 points due to lower IQ thresholds and 7 points due to a higher capitalization rate than Whites. The preliminary data on Filipino Americans suggest a mean IQ well below Whites but achievements that have begun to approach those of Whites.

Our primary objective is to provide evidence that Asian Americans achieve far beyond the bounds of IQ. But the fact that Chinese and Japanese Americans have mean IQs below Whites, or no higher than Whites, creates a secondary objective. It casts doubt on theories that the Sino- Japanese peoples possess some sort of genetic superiority for IQ, or perhaps intelligence, or perhaps both. This brief introduction will take on substance as we proceed and is merely meant to arouse interest. This may have been unnecessary. There are probably as many reasons for interest in Asian Americans as there are people interested in any social problem at all. My interest came from three sources: the spectacular achievements of Asians who emigrated to the United States and became Asian Americans; skepticism about theories which claim that the mean IQs of American ethnic groups determine their fate; skepticism about evolutionary theories which claim that Chinese and Japanese are genetically superior for intelligence.
James Flynn said:

TABLE 1.1 in the book - "Japanese WISC-R Standardization Sample: IQs when scored against American norms" - shows an "unaltered" Japanese mean score of 106.2 against a 100 American norm and a Japanese mean score of 99.2 with "allowance for both urban and SES bias." Exactly as Gladwell says. I've neither time nor inclination to look for the Chinese scores at your behest and have no reason to doubt Gladwell here.

I have no idea why you think I dislike the New Yorker, as opposed to their 'so yesterday' legend in his own mind. Read this before you ever think to quote Gladwell again:

http://www.slate.com/articles/healt...id_and_goliath_misrepresents_the_science.html
And I suggest reading some science before trying to substitute an ad hom against a popular science writer you happen to dislike.
 
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