The Bible And Slavery

[James Madison]

That defence is destroyed by the bible itself. The verses are imbedded in this old O.P. and link.

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.


What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL

First, I’m not going to respond to a YouTube video. You can make the argument of the verses in the Bible which contradict free will and I will address your argument.

And deserves its own thread.

Poor puppy does not know his bible enough to engage on how it contradicts him.

Typical Christian apologist garbage.

I prefer to chat with those who know their bible at least as well as I do.

Regards
DL

No, you do not prefer to “chat.” Instead, you prefer to let someone else do the talking, such as the person in a YouTube video, and then ostensibly anticipate objections and criticisms to be forwarded to, well, it isn’t known.

You do not get it. Post your own ideas on the subject matter. I get citing to some external source for support for your view expressed here, but this is just deciding to say nothing on the subject matter yourself and insisting I have a dialogue with a YouTube video. I’m not engaging in the futile exercise of critiquing a YouTube video when the person in the YouTube video isn’t here to respond to the criticisms or defend their point of view.

Which, by the way, the verses dealing with hardening pharaoh’s heart or Paul’s comments in Romans about “predestined” are not incompatible with free will and easily resolved.

You can post your own thoughts on the subject matter, or persist in not doing so and think yourself the better man for it.

 

[Lion IRC]

That [Alvin Plantingo free will] defence is destroyed by the bible itself. The verses are imbedded in this old O.P. and link.

Imbedded? Why not just cite the chapter/verse?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer.

No they don't.
(See how easy it is to gainsay that which is asserted without evidence?)

Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Argumentum Youtubium...yawn.

Those quotes seem to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

No they don't "seem" to.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

Death doesn't invalidate free will.
Youre confusing the theology of free will with the theology of omnipotence. Nowhere in the bible is free will
tantamount to immortality.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

You require free will to make ^^^this^^^ statement. If you lacked free will you wouldn't be able to freely contemplate such things.

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

False dilemma fallacy.

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

Have you stopped beating your wife fallacy.

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working.

Non believers here would assert themselves as rational thinking beings. They assess arguments and evidence with their own free will the same as everybody else.

If that is so, and you believers must think it so...

Must? No, I am not compelled to think that.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.
What is your choice of those two options?

False dilemma fallacy.

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

Its bad faith dialogue to assert that your opponent doesn't really think what they claim to think.

 

[DBT]

We are told that god creates 'vessels fitted for destruction' - which does not leave those destined for destruction/damnation much choice on the matter of their fate.

 

[Lion IRC]

That verse (Romans 9:22) shows God extending patience to those who would otherwise be worthy of - fit for - destruction. It's a verse about Gods prerogative to show mercy even to those who have made themselves fit for destruction. See also Luke 15:11 (Prodigal son) Matthew 27:38 (Thieves on the Cross) Genesis 18:16 (Abraham pleads with God for mercy on the city of Sodom) Jonah 3:10 (Gods mercy for Nineveh.)

Keynote regarding the (false) doctrine of predestination - nobody knows who is or isn't supposedly predestined for hell. What use is such a doctrine if it doesn't enlighten anyone as to their election status.

 

[Rhea]

That verse (Romans 9:22) shows God extending patience to those who would otherwise be worthy of - fit for - destruction. Its a verse about Gods prerogative to show mercy even to those who have made themselves fit for destruction.

Keynote regarding the (false) doctrine of predestination - nobody knows who is or isn't supposedly predestined for hell. What use is such a doctrine if it doesn't enlighten anyone as to their election status.

Jus to make them fear the power. It seems to be a fixation for that character in the story.

 

[DBT]

That verse (Romans 9:22) shows God extending patience to those who would otherwise be worthy of - fit for - destruction. It's a verse about Gods prerogative to show mercy even to those who have made themselves fit for destruction. See also Luke 15:11 (Prodigal son) Matthew 27:38 (Thieves on the Cross) Genesis 18:16 (Abraham pleads with God for mercy on the city of Sodom) Jonah 3:10 (Gods mercy for Nineveh.)

Keynote regarding the (false) doctrine of predestination - nobody knows who is or isn't supposedly predestined for hell. What use is such a doctrine if it doesn't enlighten anyone as to their election status.

It doesn't say that those who are 'fitted for destruction' made themselves that way, the verse specifies God as the Potter having the power to create both 'vessels fitted for destruction' and vessels for glory.

 

[Learner]

It doesn't say that those who are 'fitted for destruction' made themselves that way, the verse specifies God as the Potter having the power to create both 'vessels fitted for destruction' and vessels for glory.

It could mean the very same vessels fitted for either destruction OR Glory. (will have to read that bit)

 

[Rhea]

.
Moved derail on “would you like to live in Heaven” to its own thread

Back to Slavery in the Bible

 

[DBT]

It doesn't say that those who are 'fitted for destruction' made themselves that way, the verse specifies God as the Potter having the power to create both 'vessels fitted for destruction' and vessels for glory.

It could mean the very same vessels fitted for either destruction OR Glory. (will have to read that bit)

Here is what we are told:


''Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,'' - Romans 9:21-23

We are told that it is the Potter who has power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honour, the other into dishonour for His own purposes....which we are told is ''to make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,''

 

[Lion IRC]

That verse (Romans 9:22) shows God extending patience to those who would otherwise be worthy of - fit for - destruction. It's a verse about Gods prerogative to show mercy even to those who have made themselves fit for destruction. See also Luke 15:11 (Prodigal son) Matthew 27:38 (Thieves on the Cross) Genesis 18:16 (Abraham pleads with God for mercy on the city of Sodom) Jonah 3:10 (Gods mercy for Nineveh.)

Keynote regarding the (false) doctrine of predestination - nobody knows who is or isn't supposedly predestined for hell. What use is such a doctrine if it doesn't enlighten anyone as to their election status.

It doesn't say that those who are 'fitted for destruction' made themselves that way, the verse specifies God as the Potter having the power to create both 'vessels fitted for destruction' and vessels for glory.

The Potter can keep or destroy which ever pots He chooses. Romans 9:22 shows us that God does NOT automatically destroy pots which would otherwise be fit for (fitted for) destruction.

It is His prerogative to do whatever He wants. (DUH) Thats a statement of the bleeding obvious.

The point of Romans 9:22 is precisely the OPPOSITE of predestination. Its that God can - and does - decide each case on its merits.

Thats Good News.

Thats THE Good News.

How many times have we heard atheists asking why God would send good (atheist) people to hell? Romans answers that question. It says that God reserves the right to judge each 'pot' on its merits.

 

[DBT]

That verse (Romans 9:22) shows God extending patience to those who would otherwise be worthy of - fit for - destruction. It's a verse about Gods prerogative to show mercy even to those who have made themselves fit for destruction. See also Luke 15:11 (Prodigal son) Matthew 27:38 (Thieves on the Cross) Genesis 18:16 (Abraham pleads with God for mercy on the city of Sodom) Jonah 3:10 (Gods mercy for Nineveh.)

Keynote regarding the (false) doctrine of predestination - nobody knows who is or isn't supposedly predestined for hell. What use is such a doctrine if it doesn't enlighten anyone as to their election status.

It doesn't say that those who are 'fitted for destruction' made themselves that way, the verse specifies God as the Potter having the power to create both 'vessels fitted for destruction' and vessels for glory.

The Potter can keep or destroy which ever pots He chooses. Romans 9:22 shows us that God does NOT automatically destroy pots which would otherwise be fit for (fitted for) destruction.

It is His prerogative to do whatever He wants. (DUH) Thats a statement of the bleeding obvious.

The point of Romans 9:22 is precisely the OPPOSITE of predestination. Its that God can - and does - decide each case on its merits.

Thats Good News.

Thats THE Good News.

How many times have we heard atheists asking why God would send good (atheist) people to hell? Romans answers that question. It says that God reserves the right to judge each 'pot' on its merits.

You ignore context:

''For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28)

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.'' Proverbs 16:4


''Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6, KJV)


“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46

This and much more paints a picture of a God who creates strife and evil for His own pleasure, a God who creates ''vessels fitted for destruction.''

Conversely;
''He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,'' Ephesians 1:5

 

[ideologyhunter]

Because we are now including in this thread a look at Bible messaging, I wish to cite:

Paul's Letter to the Caesareans

1 From Rome, Paul, who by God's will is apostle to Christ Jesus.
2 To God's people in Caesarea, but to the elders only:
3 Brethren, this message is to be shared only among the church leaders.
4 In Rome I receive reports of unrest and dissension and so on among the believers;
5 That is all as it may be. I present a deeper matter, and I implore your attentions:
6 My physician, Athenaeus, having given me a cathartic of bitter barberry and a poutice of nettles and hyssop;
7 Attended me three weeks, as I was in a transport and knew not Timothy and his fellows --
8 At length, my mind, eyes, and heart were opened. I saw my delusions for what they were.
9 My vision near Damascus was a rebellion of my body's humours. I am now restored.
10 Brethren, the faith is a delusion, the hopes for an afterlife a vanity. Did you not know it?
11 Protest not.
12 Partake of the barberry physic and your mind, eyes, and heart shall receive this message in love.
13 You must not abandon your preaching. It is false but ye shall preach.
14 Preach on the hillsides, preach in the towns, preach by the water.
15 For ye shall civilize the world, reform the sinful, and cauterize the infections of evil.
16 Our faith is a mighty physic.
17 It shall employ you in your lifetime as it does me, in my lifetime. How else did you suppose I would cruise the Mediterranean?
18 Huh?
19 Brethren, this gospel is a vanity, a pretense, and it shall work wonders.
20 Indeed -- my name is on epistles I myself did not write.
21 I didn't write this one.
22 I close now. There is an unexpected knock at the --
(Manuscript ends)

 

[Learner]

DBT using the method of context?


That's a Merry Christmas one and all.