The Bible As Literature

[pood]

What modern people can or cannot comprehend says nothing about the beauty and poetry of the KJV. A good many modern readers of English can't even comprehend T.S. Eliot.

I guess that's a matter of opinion. I've never found the KJV of the Bible to be beautiful.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Maybe it's because I was once an English major, who eventually lost all interest in English literature, especially the old stuff. It's time is past imo. Now I only read non fiction, so maybe it's me. I can't even stand to read Shakespeare any longer and I barely remember any of his writing, despite taking an entire course in Shakespeare while in college. To each their own. Glad you enjoy those old school writings. Next you'll be telling us that you like Chaucer too. I think I was forced to read his stuff in college as well. But, hey. Whatever floats your boat is fine with me, as long as I get to politely disagree.

If I were to read a Bible, I'd prefer a more modern translation.

I like Chaucer, in the original. And Shakespeare.

The bible has had a huge influence on Western culture, literature, poetry, art, architecture, and music, and rightly so. Parts of it are mesmerizing, both for the poetical quality of writing and for just thumping good yarns: Genesis, Moses and the the ten commandments, the Song of Solomon, the Book of Job, the story of Samson, Noah and the flood, the New Testament, the Book of Revelation prominently among them.

If you don’t take any of this as literal history (though many of the tall tales are rooted in real places and events), what’s not to like? It features at the center of it all the greatest villain in the history of literature: God! He makes Hannibal Lecter look like a piker. He not only creates the world, he later destroys it with a great deluge in a fit of supernatural pique. From a story-telling point of view what’s not to like?

As a kid I had an illustrated bible and was wowed by it. I still recall the color illustration of Samson, his eyes without pupils, knocking down the pillars of the temple. Later I got a book of dinosaurs and I kind of forgot about the bible because I had a new hero, Tyrannosaurus Rex. But the illustrated bible inspired a lifelong love of literature and the dinosaurs book a love of science.

Shakespeare was heavily influenced by the bible. His writing would have been very different without that influence. Perhaps he wouldn’t have written anything at all. The content and cadences of Lincoln’s writings are unthinkable without the influence of both the bible and Shakespeare. “Four score and seven years ago” is derived from the bible’s “three score and ten.” Shakespeare to Lincoln: “Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray/That this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away.” More bible: “Woe unto the world because of offenses because it must needs be that offenses come but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.” And: “The judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether.”

Modern sci-fi fantasy is inspired by the bible including the supposed ineffable nature of God transposed onto aliens, a central theme of 2001: A Space Odyssey and of Stanislav Lem’s obscure but wonderful masterpiece His Master’s Voice. What is 2001 but a brief for intelligent design creationism?

And then there is the metaphor of Noah’s ark in so much modern sci-fi/fantasy, tales about multi-generational space arks ferrying survivors of some global calamity to distant worlds to begin anew.

 

[southernhybrid]

What modern people can or cannot comprehend says nothing about the beauty and poetry of the KJV. A good many modern readers of English can't even comprehend T.S. Eliot.

I guess that's a matter of opinion. I've never found the KJV of the Bible to be beautiful.
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Maybe it's because I was once an English major, who eventually lost all interest in English literature, especially the old stuff. It's time is past imo. Now I only read non fiction, so maybe it's me. I can't even stand to read Shakespeare any longer and I barely remember any of his writing, despite taking an entire course in Shakespeare while in college. To each their own. Glad you enjoy those old school writings. Next you'll be telling us that you like Chaucer too. I think I was forced to read his stuff in college as well. But, hey. Whatever floats your boat is fine with me, as long as I get to politely disagree.

If I were to read a Bible, I'd prefer a more modern translation.

I like Chaucer, in the original. And Shakespeare.

The bible has had a huge influence on Western culture, literature, poetry, art, architecture, and music, and rightly so. Parts of it are mesmerizing, both for the poetical quality of writing and for just thumping good yarns: Genesis, Moses and the the ten commandments, the Song of Solomon, the Book of Job, the story of Samson, Noah and the flood, the New Testament, the Book of Revelation prominently among them.

If you don’t take any of this as literal history (though many of the tall tales are rooted in real places and events), what’s not to like? It features at the center of it all the greatest villain in the history of literature: God! He makes Hannibal Lecter look like a piker. He not only creates the world, he later destroys it with a great deluge in a fit of supernatural pique. From a story-telling point of view what’s not to like?

As a kid I had an illustrated bible and was wowed by it. I still recall the color illustration of Samson, his eyes without pupils, knocking down the pillars of the temple. Later I got a book of dinosaurs and I kind of forgot about the bible because I had a new hero, Tyrannosaurus Rex. But the illustrated bible inspired a lifelong love of literature and the dinosaurs book a love of science.

Shakespeare was heavily influenced by the bible. His writing would have been very different without that influence. Perhaps he wouldn’t have written anything at all. The content and cadences of Lincoln’s writings are unthinkable without the influence of both the bible and Shakespeare. “Four score and seven years ago” is derived from the bible’s “three score and ten.” Shakespeare to Lincoln: “Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray/That this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away.” More bible: “Woe unto the world because of offenses because it must needs be that offenses come but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh.” And: “The judgments of the lord are true and righteous altogether.”

Modern sci-fi fantasy is inspired by the bible including the supposed ineffable nature of God transposed onto aliens, a central theme of 2001: A Space Odyssey and of Stanislav Lem’s obscure but wonderful masterpiece His Master’s Voice. What is 2001 but a brief for intelligent design creationism?

And then there is the metaphor of Noah’s ark in so much modern sci-fi/fantasy, tales about multi-generational space arks ferrying survivors of some global calamity to distant worlds to begin anew.

I totally understand why a lot of people enjoy classic literature. I'm just not one of them. I loved it during my youth, not the Bible, but the other stuff. Then I outgrew it. I don't mean that as an insult. It was just something that I no longer enjoyed once I became middle aged. That is when I began to embrace good science writers, good history writers etc. I guess I had just had enough, which is why I used the term outgrew it. I find most literature boring now, but as I said before, to each their own.

I do love slang though and I've been reading a book on and off about the history of slang. It's interesting how many slang words have been around much longer than most of us knew and how they had rebirths in new ages. It's cool. Can ya dig it? I'm guessing that a bit of Shakespeare's terms were some of the slang of his day. Amirite?

 

[Politesse]

I think people who approach the Bible as literature tend to enjoy it rather more than those who read it out of religious obligation. Getting religious folks to actually read the Bible is like pulling teeth; they aren't thinking of them as books that might just be naturally interesting to read.

 

[WAB]

SOHY,

I do like Chaucer. I like to read the original text, but with the help of a glossary. I actually prefer older styles of writing. That said, if a modern author routinely employed antiquated and obsolete modes of speech, other than for some kind of special effect, I would find it absurd. I appreciate the older styles of English, and centuries-old books, as objects in and of their time.

It isn't exactly unusual to appreciate the KJV as a work of literature. In fact my opinion is rather on the common side. Not that that matters. What we think is beautiful when it comes to written words is subjective, a matter of opinion.

I hope you understand that I said the KJV contains beautiful and poetic writing, not that it's a beautiful book. Strictly regarding it teachings, its meaning, its moral perspectives, it contains some of the ugliest and most offensive things ever said.

Christopher Hitchens wrote an article for the Atlantic where he speaks of the value of the KJV as a work of English literature, its merits as a translation, and his compliments were far more glowing than mine. But naturally he was no fan of the Bible taken altogether. Quite the contrary.

If I want to read the Bible for the primary purpose of understanding and learning its contents, I too would go to a modern translation, and I have. But if I want to hear some lovely poetic prose for its own sake, it's the KJV hands down.

Of course you get to disagree with my opinion! How could it be otherwise?

 

[DBT]

The content isn't beautiful, the theology is immoral. The beauty lies in the poetic way it's written.

 

[steve_bank]

English Standard Version Par ▾

1How beautiful are your feet in sandals,
O noble daughter!
Your rounded thighs are like jewels,
the work of a master hand.
2Your navel is a rounded bowl
that never lacks mixed wine.
Your belly is a heap of wheat,
encircled with lilies.
3Your two breasts are like two fawns,
twins of a gazelle.
4Your neck is like an ivory tower.
Your eyes are pools in Heshbon,
by the gate of Bath-rabbim.
Your nose is like a tower of Lebanon,
which looks toward Damascus.
5Your head crowns you like Carmel,
and your flowing locks are like purple;
a king is held captive in the tresses.

6How beautiful and pleasant you are,
O loved one, with all your delights!a
7Your stature is like a palm tree,
and your breasts are like its clusters.
8I say I will climb the palm tree
and lay hold of its fruit.
Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine,
and the scent of your breath like apples,
9and your mouthb like the best wine.
She

It goes down smoothly for my beloved,
gliding over lips and teeth.c

10I am my beloved’s,
and his desire is for me.

The Bride Gives Her Love

11Come, my beloved,
let us go out into the fields
and lodge in the villages;d
12let us go out early to the vineyards
and see whether the vines have budded,
whether the grape blossoms have opened
and the pomegranates are in bloom.
There I will give you my love.
13The mandrakes give forth fragrance,
and beside our doors are all choice fruits,
new as well as old,
which I have laid up for you, O my beloved.

Song Of Solomon. Is it just me or is it getting hot in here?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The content isn't beautiful, the theology is immoral. The beauty lies in the poetic way it's written.

Examples? I've never noticed beauty in the KJV but I'm a bit illiterate with the finer types of literature.

 

[Learner]

I am sure there are books on this topic.



Learner

Could the OT writers have been using allegory and metaphor not interring to be literal? Maybe some of it was just entertaining fictional stories?

Hey steve, I have been browsing the religion section briefly reading the recent posts 'off and on'....but I didn't realise the 'original post' was to me. Sorry about that.

So, as I see it. The writers were using ALL of the literal forms: Allegory, Metaphor (Parables), Poetry, Songs (Psalms, Proverbs) and literal (Commandments/laws, Teaching about Love, & Warnings of the Dangers etc. & etc).

If you believe a reference in the bible to a behemoth means humans ran with T Rex why not believe the stories in Homer's Odyssey?

I believe indeed the behemoth is a huge creature but the description isn't sufficient to suggest it being a T-Rex. So how did you get...oh, I get it... nevermind.

Homer's Odyssey quite simply, lacks the sort of claims of individual testimonies and the strong emphasis of 'witness claims/reports' like the events described in the bible as having occurred.

Fiction across cultures was well developed by the time Hebrews were starting to record their narrative and myths.

Well, I don't see it that way of course.

The OT was never a coherent work. It is a patchwork of different authors at different times.

I really don't understand why people think that having many authors is somehow a "problem". Having many authors is 'actually' an advantage, when it comes to the bible. Especially when the emphasis of importance as according to the scriptures that 'all events' that is claimed to be seen...is to be put forward by two or more witnesses.

Basically I would see no problem at all then, if for example: ALL the authors also had someone else assist/write with them!

The Old Testament: Various Schools of Authors Starting around the 7th century B.C., different groups, or schools, of authors wrote them down at different times, before they were at some point (probably during the first century B.C.) combined into the single, multi-layered work we know today.Jul 17, 2020

Odyssey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not a problem in my book (I see it differently).

 

[DBT]

The content isn't beautiful, the theology is immoral. The beauty lies in the poetic way it's written.

Examples? I've never noticed beauty in the KJV but I'm a bit illiterate with the finer types of literature.

Typically;

"If there is a single attribute large numbers of readers attach almost reflexively to the King James Version of the Bible, it is most likely eloquence. The warrant for this attribution is abundantly evident. Eloquence ― a term associated with oratory, especially delivered orally ― suggests a powerful marshalling of the resources of language to produce a persuasive effect, and that quality is manifested in verse after verse of the 1611 translation."

The King James Version and the art of biblical translation - ABC Religion & Ethics

If there is a single attribute most readers attach to the King James Version of the Bible, it is probably eloquence — but having completed my own translation of the Hebrew Bible, I wonder how often it was a Hebrew eloquence?

www.abc.net.au