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The Brainwashing of Theists - Exihibit 1 - Abraham & the Crazy Guy

Learner said:
Ramaraksha said:
If you were out on the street and come across a crazy guy brandishing a huge knife and screaming that God told him to kill his family
you would be calling the cops to come lock him up!
But tell Theists that that guy's name is Abraham and they will sing his praises & might even give him a gun to make the job "easier" That's all it takes it seems - a simple change in word, a name - from Crazy Guy to Abraham - seems to mess up our brains, morals, principles
Click to expand...
I didn't want to be arguing the same thing on every thread you post an OP but I'll answer this post for you.

If a person identifies himself as a theist, and he attempts to murder someone on the street. Another person nearby also identifies himself as a theist, has himself the means to intervene and stop the attacker

In your mind are you suggesting the theist who has the means to stop the attacker is going to let the other theist harm the targeted person...all because of Abraham?

Love to hear your answer.
Click to expand...
Playing word semantics - why do you do this? A simple question - you see a guy brandishing a knife saying God ordered him to kill his family!
What is your reaction? Honest now!
Would it not be horror? Anger? Call the cops immediately? Try to stop him if you can?
But change the guy's name to Abraham and your morals do a 180!
And then change the religion to some other one
"If that god was Molech or Baal, which suits your depiction, sure. then sacrifice and torturing children as worshippers would have been the order of the day"
Boom! As soon as it is some OTHER religion and not yours, your morals again do a 180!
.
As they say, Victors write History books
That other religious people were sacrificing children is a label that your Christians affixed them! We have no evidence that they did so
Wait, maybe there is a story in THEIR holy books about how God ordered them to kill a child? you think?
Learner said:
Ramaraksha said:
.
Had the pleasure of reading a book written by two PROFESSORS from Brown University (well, that explains their work)
singing praises of Abraham for Obeying God!
What if God has asked Abraham to go rape a young child? Would he not have done it? He was prepared to kill his OWN child!
Click to expand...

Creating your own metric for Gods morality, made to suit your specific depiction of an alternative god to the biblical God is a flawed disingenuous campaign. No theist is ever commanded to kill or r*pe their own child. They would oppose it strongly.
Click to expand...
Sometimes I have no answers - how are coming with these answers
They are praising Abraham for obeying God! For his willingness to MURDER his OWN child!
For being a blind slave!
But that was life back then - you obeyed the Master
I do not fault Abraham for his blind obedience
What I fault are the two professors who should know better and people like you
 
Ramaraksha, I basically agree with what you're saying. Christian apologists have rationalized the Abraham and Isaac story forever. But in real life, as you say, if we were to encounter a person who said that God had commanded them that they kill their child, any Christian would actively work to interfere with that person. The cognitive dissonance is very strong in them.
 
DLH said:
Ramaraksha said:
If you were out on the street and come across a crazy guy brandishing a huge knife and screaming that God told him to kill his family
you would be calling the cops to come lock him up!
Click to expand...

And rightfully so since God doesn't tell anyone to do anything outside of a relatively few isolated cases in a relatively small area. It's noteworthy to add that if a man is doing the same only after your family, he's a soldier. It's all a matter of perspective.

Click to expand...
"a matter of perspective" unfortunately we can then excuse all kinds of atrocities with such a view
The Nazis were simply obeying orders - they were innocent
Hitler was a product of the hate that Christians and Muslims had nurtured thru the centuries, which this media and intellectuals
of the day continue to deny & censor
His mother was a raging anti-Semite - so blame the mother for it & where did SHE get her hate from?
.
But as you said "a matter of perspective" - I look for rational explanations
These are Master/Slave religions - Christianity & Islam - not Judaism - I view the latter as a Teacher/Student faith
Abraham, a slave, reacted as a proper slave should - Master has ordered, one MUST obey!
.
To me, God was testing Abraham - Are you my Son/Student or my Slave?
As a son or a Student, Abraham's reaction would be different - he would refuse such a request/order, come what may
But sadly, Abraham chose to be a slave
 
WAB said:
Ramaraksha, I basically agree with what you're saying. Christian apologists have rationalized the Abraham and Isaac story forever. But in real life, as you say, if we were to encounter a person who said that God had commanded them that they kill their child, any Christian would actively work to interfere with that person. The cognitive dissonance is very strong in them.
Click to expand...
yes - an interesting topic for psychologists to study don't you think? But NOT ONE PSYCHOLOGIST will do so! Not even an Atheist one!
The brainwashing of religion runs deep
You can go thru the answers to my post - theists have one answer when it is their religion, a completely different one when it is OTHER religions
Quick to defend even the most heinous actions when it is THEIR religion, but equally as quick to point out the horrors of other religions
Their morals go into hibernation when it is THEIR religion and wake up once it is not theirs

BTW - if anyone is interested - the book written by the two professors - I searched for it and found it
It is - "The Knowledge Illusion" - by Steven Sloman and Philip Fernbach
I wrote to them but neither one replied back to me
 
Ramaraksha said:
Learner said:
Ramaraksha said:
If you were out on the street and come across a crazy guy brandishing a huge knife and screaming that God told him to kill his family
you would be calling the cops to come lock him up!
But tell Theists that that guy's name is Abraham and they will sing his praises & might even give him a gun to make the job "easier" That's all it takes it seems - a simple change in word, a name - from Crazy Guy to Abraham - seems to mess up our brains, morals, principles
Click to expand...
I didn't want to be arguing the same thing on every thread you post an OP but I'll answer this post for you.

If a person identifies himself as a theist, and he attempts to murder someone on the street. Another person nearby also identifies himself as a theist, has himself the means to intervene and stop the attacker

In your mind are you suggesting the theist who has the means to stop the attacker is going to let the other theist harm the targeted person...all because of Abraham?

Love to hear your answer.
Click to expand...
Playing word semantics - why do you do this? A simple question - you see a guy brandishing a knife saying God ordered him to kill his family!
What is your reaction? Honest now!
Would it not be horror? Anger? Call the cops immediately? Try to stop him if you can?
But change the guy's name to Abraham and your morals do a 180!
Click to expand...
Semantics? Ok, but as irony would have it. I can see quite plainly, your incessant obsessiveness to 'context flipping' must earn you the 'Guru status' of semantics, with the long beard thrown in.

So contrary to your contextual shape-shift. Even if a killer was called Abraham, I would STILL intervene and try to stop him like other Christians! Christians are NOT permitted to kill children and definitely not their families. Get the theology right!

Concerning Abraham of the scriptures, not the 'psycho' in your false equivalent scenario. Abraham didn't kill his son. He was never supposed to!

This Abraham who did not kill his son... is not a moral device to excuse murder. How can it be?

Ramaraksha said:
And then change the religion to some other one
"If that god was Molech or Baal, which suits your depiction, sure. then sacrifice and torturing children as worshippers would have been the order of the day"
Boom! As soon as it is some OTHER religion and not yours, your morals again do a 180!
Click to expand...
That's why the Ten Commandments was introduced to the Israelites who were being influenced by those worship traditions.

Ramaraksha said:
.
As they say, Victors write History books
That other religious people were sacrificing children is a label that your Christians affixed them! We have no evidence that they did so
Wait, maybe there is a story in THEIR holy books about how God ordered them to kill a child? you think?
Click to expand...

Christian labelling religions, says the guru of labelling and semantics.

Ramaraksha said:
Learner said:
Ramaraksha said:
.
Had the pleasure of reading a book written by two PROFESSORS from Brown University (well, that explains their work)
singing praises of Abraham for Obeying God!
What if God has asked Abraham to go rape a young child? Would he not have done it? He was prepared to kill his OWN child!
Click to expand...

Creating your own metric for Gods morality, made to suit your specific depiction of an alternative god to the biblical God is a flawed disingenuous campaign. No theist is ever commanded to kill or r*pe their own child. They would oppose it strongly.
Click to expand...
Sometimes I have no answers - how are coming with these answers
They are praising Abraham for obeying God! For his willingness to MURDER his OWN child!
For being a blind slave!
But that was life back then - you obeyed the Master
I do not fault Abraham for his blind obedience
What I fault are the two professors who should know better and people like you
Click to expand...
See the above, Guru & semantics.

(wow I posted this without my 🤓)
 
Ramaraksha said:
DLH said:
Ramaraksha said:
If you were out on the street and come across a crazy guy brandishing a huge knife and screaming that God told him to kill his family
you would be calling the cops to come lock him up!
Click to expand...

And rightfully so since God doesn't tell anyone to do anything outside of a relatively few isolated cases in a relatively small area. It's noteworthy to add that if a man is doing the same only after your family, he's a soldier. It's all a matter of perspective.

Click to expand...
"a matter of perspective" unfortunately we can then excuse all kinds of atrocities with such a view
The Nazis were simply obeying orders - they were innocent
Hitler was a product of the hate that Christians and Muslims had nurtured thru the centuries, which this media and intellectuals
of the day continue to deny & censor
His mother was a raging anti-Semite - so blame the mother for it & where did SHE get her hate from?
Click to expand...
A question and thought to ponder on with this perspective matter:

According to your reincarnation. What did the mother do in her previous life to be so hateful?

Ramaraksha said:
.
But as you said "a matter of perspective" - I look for rational explanations
These are Master/Slave religions - Christianity & Islam - not Judaism - I view the latter as a Teacher/Student faith
Abraham, a slave, reacted as a proper slave should - Master has ordered, one MUST obey!
.
Click to expand...

According to reincarnation, with all the above characters, slave, masters etc.. Will they be relegated down to being rodents or turkeys etc. in their next lives? Perhaps for some, they get promoted to being good people and lead the lazy good luxurious lives in mansions...similar to um..the Christians idea of Heaven,.


Ramaraksha said:
To me, God was testing Abraham - Are you my Son/Student or my Slave?
As a son or a Student, Abraham's reaction would be different - he would refuse such a request/order, come what may
But sadly, Abraham chose to be a slave
Click to expand...
Finishing on the thought of perspective matters in concept:

Why do the gods continuously allow this 'slave & master" dictatorships to continue, to keep existing in every cycle reincarnation? We can include all the examples you describe in the bible - the pain and suffering is always existing, never ending.with each passing life cycle of an individuals world.

Irony would have it. These gods are dictators by your very description of dictators. master and slaves!

You can join us if you really think this through 😉

(Not intended to be an insult to your faith, just a single response to the very many posts you do about Christianity, which is fine btw to express your pov)
 
Last edited:
Histrionically the threat to Christians has not been atheists or Muslims or anyone else.

It is Christian to Christian bickering leading to conflict and war.

Dispute theology and interpretations in the Hokey Babel.
 
pood said:
DLH said:
Ideologues take an idea and become fixated or obsessed with it to the point that honesty and fairness are either sacrificed or deliberately obscured for the idea.
Click to expand...

Did you look into a mirror while writing that?
Click to expand...

Why, yes. I always look in a mirror while posting because I look marvelous.

That was a joke, critics. I actually hate mirrors because I look like an ugly old sack of turd.
 
I have read the rabbinic literature says or implies that Abraham actually did sacrifice Isaac in the earliest versions if Genesis. Abraham killed him and the God brought him back from the dead.
 
Given the brutality of punishments in Mosaic Law I would nit be surprised if Abraham or other patriarchs killed an offspring,.

Look at whet Roman dictators did to some relatives. Kings in Europe, like Henry 8th.

I(t is rare, there was one or two so called honor killings in immigrant Muslim families in the USA.
l
I(t is not that here is treachery, murder, and brutality in the the bible I object to. Ancient Hebrews would have been like any other culture of the day. King David was as treacherous as Henry 8th.

I object to modern Christians who say the bible is a morality to be followed.
 
Ramaraksha said:
If you were out on the street and come across a crazy guy brandishing a huge knife and screaming that God told him to kill his family
you would be calling the cops to come lock him up!
But tell Theists that that guy's name is Abraham and they will sing his praises & might even give him a gun to make the job "easier"
That's all it takes it seems - a simple change in word, a name - from Crazy Guy to Abraham - seems to mess up our brains, morals, principles
.
Had the pleasure of reading a book written by two PROFESSORS from Brown University (well, that explains their work)
singing praises of Abraham for Obeying God!
What if God has asked Abraham to go rape a young child? Would he not have done it? He was prepared to kill his OWN child!
And would these two professors had sung his praises? It seems they would have - nothing surprises me as to how low theists can go
Click to expand...

You’re absolutely right to highlight the moral dissonance in how religious stories are treated versus real-world behavior. If someone today claimed God told them to kill their child, we wouldn’t hesitate to intervene — they’d be hospitalized or arrested. But when the same act is placed in a religious context, as with Abraham, it’s somehow revered as faith and obedience.

This is the danger of divine command theory — where morality becomes dependent not on the action itself, but on who is supposedly giving the order. It removes personal accountability and replaces moral reasoning with blind submission. That’s not virtue — it’s moral outsourcing.

And your hypothetical — what if the command had been rape, or torture? It’s not outlandish. The Book of Judges describes a man sacrificing his daughter to fulfill a vow to God, and it’s treated as tragic but honorable. If morality can be warped that far by “obedience,” then we’ve lost the very thing that makes us moral beings in the first place: the ability to reason, empathize, and say no — even to a god.

Religious texts should not be immune to critique just because they’re old or revered. If we wouldn’t accept it from our neighbors, we shouldn’t celebrate it in our scriptures.

NHC
 
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