The college rape kangaroo courts

[laughing dog]

Not necessarily. If a student is "expelled", it is up to the policy and practice of the school to communicate the "expulsion" or reasons. An expulsion may not even be recorded, just that the student no longer attends the institution. Or it is possible that the reason for the separation is "violation of the student conduct code" with no further explanation given to anyone. This has nothing to do with naivete. On the contrary, it is based on observation.

Also, any school worth going to is not desperate for bodies to fill seats. They turn students away. Why the hell would a school that already has proved its cowardice and disregard for due process by having such a policy, want to take on the ire of the people it is already cowering to by accepting accused rapist transfers?

Your response is based on questionable assumptions. First, this assumes the accepting school knows the reason for the requested transfer - a questionable assumption. Second, it assumes the accepting school has the same policy on this issue as the expelling school - another questionable assumption.

Your understanding of how information travels and discovered against the will of the parties involved is a couple decades out of date.

Sigh, and your ignorance about how colleges and universities deal with these issues is amazing.

Do you know how to set the clock on your VCR?

How ironic - I have a blue ray player.

 

[laughing dog]

] I think it much more wrong for a victim of an actual crime to have to either meet the perpetrator on a regular basis and relive the trauma or move than the innocent person moving, but that is just me.

The accuser does not "have to" do anything. They have a choice. If seeing the accused does cause them trauma, they can choose to move.

So the accuser has a choice to make (i.e. have to make a choice). Try to be at least superficially coherent even if you fail logic.

You are in favor of forcing a result onto the innocent, rather than allowing the accuser to have the option of staying or moving. Decent people think that forcing something on someone is bad. Try to be at least superficially coherent in what you pretend to care about.

What the fuck are you babbling about? I have made no argument about forcing anyone to do anything.

 

[maxparrish]

...

So while I don't agree with going so far in the other direction that a university student could be expelled on a "20% probability" that he or she violated university policy, I will call absolute bullshit on the claim that false rape claims are more prevalent or more of a problem than rape and the under-reaction to it.

They are nothing but "bimbo eruptions" smearing the innocent, just like Hillary claimed a couple of decades ago.

 

[Shadowy Man]

http://lgbtv.co.uk/2015/09/12/jared-polis-stirs-controversy-with-remarks-on-sexual-assault/

Oops, a congresscritter admitted the driving force. It's better to punish several innocents than let one guilty escape.

Unless he suggests how to quantify the probability of a rape having occurred, he's just talking out of his ass about a 20 or 30 percent chance being a bar for removal of an individual.

Further he avoids the question about actual explusion:

Reason magazine asked Polis, the first openly gay father in Congress, if he would accept his son being expelled using such a low burden of proof. “If my son had a baseless accusation made against him at a university and it was making his life there miserable, I would suggest he transfer or take courses online,” Polis replied. “It can be a living hell to go through endless campus investigations. I’ve seen this go down, and there really is no winning once the accusation is made even if the process provides formal vindication. Someone who is wrongfully accused needs to do their best to put it behind them and move on. Trying to re-enroll in the same institution would be a constant reminder of the traumatic experience of being the subject of a baseless accusation.”

He says that he would suggest his son transfer, but he didn't answer whether he thought his son should be expelled.

 

[Arctish]

I am still not fully sure as to what degree the colleges preside over rape accusations.
However while rapes do exist and there are some false accusations, any accusation must be treated as a criminal matter through the courts.
It's not clear why this is not done as it seems a pretty common sense decision.

Rape cases with actual evidence are handled through the courts. The policies in question are about cases where there is no evidence and thus no justified basis to punish the accused. Proponents of the proposed policies want to punish these students anyway, and putting political pressure on colleges to do so is their only leverage.

No, that's not how it works.

Violations of the Student Code of Conduct are handled by the disciplinary board at the college or university where they reportedly took place. Some of the possible violations are also crimes, such as rape, robbery, and battery. Some of them are misdemeanor offenses, such as underage drinking and unpaid parking tickets. Some of them are not crimes but are still against the rules and can get a student expelled, such as cheating on exams or plagiarism.

What we keep arguing is this:

1) should a college or university address reports of criminal wrongdoing on campus through their own disciplinary process, or should they always refer such cases to the police and take no other action;

2) should a college or university disciplinary board proceed independently, regardless of whether the local Prosecutor brings criminal charges against an accused student, or should the schools wait for a verdict in a court of law before taking any action;

3) what standard should a college or university use for reaching conclusions during disciplinary hearings, proof beyond a reasonable doubt or preponderance of evidence?

Apparently, some folks have a hard time accepting the notion that a college can expel a student according to its own rules and policies, which may or may not have anything in common with the penal code.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Rape cases with actual evidence are handled through the courts. The policies in question are about cases where there is no evidence and thus no justified basis to punish the accused. Proponents of the proposed policies want to punish these students anyway, and putting political pressure on colleges to do so is their only leverage.

No, that's not how it works.

Violations of the Student Code of Conduct are handled by the disciplinary board at the college or university where they reportedly took place. Some of the possible violations are also crimes, such as rape, robbery, and battery. Some of them are misdemeanor offenses, such as underage drinking and unpaid parking tickets. Some of them are not crimes but are still against the rules and can get a student expelled, such as cheating on exams or plagiarism.

What we keep arguing is this:

1) should a college or university address reports of criminal wrongdoing on campus through their own disciplinary process, or should they always refer such cases to the police and take no other action;

2) should a college or university disciplinary board proceed independently, regardless of whether the local Prosecutor brings criminal charges against an accused student, or should the schools wait for a verdict in a court of law before taking any action;

3) what standard should a college or university use for reaching conclusions during disciplinary hearings, proof beyond a reasonable doubt or preponderance of evidence?

Apparently, some folks have a hard time accepting the notion that a college can expel a student according to its own rules and policies, which may or may not have anything in common with the penal code.

Just because colleges have their own penal codes doesn't mean they are correct. Crimes should be tried in the courts. The general rules are different.
A student should not be expelled only on the basis of an accusation (true of false). If a student is expelled but found innocent, then he should have the right to sue the college. In fact that is happening

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6588

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And why do you think any other school would admit him???

Why wouldn't a school accept an actual rape victim (the actual context of that exchange)? However, I do not assume that the accusation or circumstances behind the transfer to necessarily become public. Factor in the competition for actual bodies to come to campus, and I find it much more likely someone could transfer than not.

You perfectly well know we are talking about those who are accused of rape.

 

[Arctish]

No, that's not how it works.

Violations of the Student Code of Conduct are handled by the disciplinary board at the college or university where they reportedly took place. Some of the possible violations are also crimes, such as rape, robbery, and battery. Some of them are misdemeanor offenses, such as underage drinking and unpaid parking tickets. Some of them are not crimes but are still against the rules and can get a student expelled, such as cheating on exams or plagiarism.

What we keep arguing is this:

1) should a college or university address reports of criminal wrongdoing on campus through their own disciplinary process, or should they always refer such cases to the police and take no other action;

2) should a college or university disciplinary board proceed independently, regardless of whether the local Prosecutor brings criminal charges against an accused student, or should the schools wait for a verdict in a court of law before taking any action;

3) what standard should a college or university use for reaching conclusions during disciplinary hearings, proof beyond a reasonable doubt or preponderance of evidence?

Apparently, some folks have a hard time accepting the notion that a college can expel a student according to its own rules and policies, which may or may not have anything in common with the penal code.

Just because colleges have their own penal codes doesn't mean they are correct.

Colleges and Universities don't have their own penal codes. They have Codes of Conduct, which they require all students to read and agree in writing to follow. The Codes state the rules, and the agreements spell out the possible consequences for failure to abide by them. Some codes are pretty strict, especially at Baptist and fundamentalist Christian colleges, while others are somewhat lax. AFAIK none of them match the local penal code, although some of them might reference it.

Crimes should be tried in the courts.

They are. But that doesn't mean that a college or university shouldn't address violations of the Code of Conduct through its own disciplinary process.

If you beat the crap out of your college roommate you could be expelled and go to prison. If you diddle a 10 year old in the stadium showers, you should be banned from campus and go to prison. It's not an either/or situation.

The general rules are different.
A student should not be expelled only on the basis of an accusation (true of false).

The whole purpose of a disciplinary board is to investigate accusations of wrongdoing, not merely to rubber stamp them regardless of evidence, likelihood, or the trustworthiness of witnesses.

Sometimes the only evidence is the testimony of the accuser and the accused. I don't think colleges should have any hard and fast rules about what to do in those situations. If the accuser is deemed more reliable than the accused, a school might choose to act on the accusation alone. Or it could choose to dismiss the complaint. It all depends on what seems most just, fair, and in the best interests of both school and students.

If a student is expelled but found innocent, then he should have the right to sue the college. In fact that is happening

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6588

Agree 100%

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am still not fully sure as to what degree the colleges preside over rape accusations.
However while rapes do exist and there are some false accusations, any accusation must be treated as a criminal matter through the courts.
It's not clear why this is not done as it seems a pretty common sense decision.

The courts have this obnoxious concept of requiring proof of guilt.

The problem is the supposed campus sexual assault rate is vastly higher than the rape conviction rate. Thus we must punish more rapists, evidence be damned.

Never mind that the reported rape rate is only about 1% of the reported sexual assault rate. (I got it wrong before--I mistakenly compared the college assault rate with the annual rape rate--a unit error.) Of course the rape conviction rate is less than 1% of the sexual assault rate! If it wasn't there would be something seriously wrong.

 

[Toni]

No, that's not how it works.

Violations of the Student Code of Conduct are handled by the disciplinary board at the college or university where they reportedly took place. Some of the possible violations are also crimes, such as rape, robbery, and battery. Some of them are misdemeanor offenses, such as underage drinking and unpaid parking tickets. Some of them are not crimes but are still against the rules and can get a student expelled, such as cheating on exams or plagiarism.

What we keep arguing is this:

1) should a college or university address reports of criminal wrongdoing on campus through their own disciplinary process, or should they always refer such cases to the police and take no other action;

2) should a college or university disciplinary board proceed independently, regardless of whether the local Prosecutor brings criminal charges against an accused student, or should the schools wait for a verdict in a court of law before taking any action;

3) what standard should a college or university use for reaching conclusions during disciplinary hearings, proof beyond a reasonable doubt or preponderance of evidence?

Apparently, some folks have a hard time accepting the notion that a college can expel a student according to its own rules and policies, which may or may not have anything in common with the penal code.

Just because colleges have their own penal codes doesn't mean they are correct. Crimes should be tried in the courts. The general rules are different.
A student should not be expelled only on the basis of an accusation (true of false). If a student is expelled but found innocent, then he should have the right to sue the college. In fact that is happening

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6588

The account related on the linked site has already been discussed here. I sincerely doubt a number of alleged 'facts.' For one thing, no one could 'forbid' a student from having legal representation. It seems highly unlikely that any school would even attempt such a move. It is in no one's interests, most particularly from the point of view of the school, the school's interests.

The accused/expelled student has not 'proven' anything, although he has apparently submitted evidence which contradicts statements by his accuser. This 'evidence' may or may not be legitimate and may or may not present an accurate depiction of events. The university response may or may not be accurately reported here. I have been around enough universities to be highly skeptical that what is reported in campusreform.org's article is complete or completely accurate.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am skeptical of the complete and unbiased reporting of all online news sources.

Re: the facts in this case. We don't know. We only know what people with an ax to grind--the accused and an organization which is devoted to 'providing resources for conservative students.' It is not an impartial journalistic source.

 

[laughing dog]

Why wouldn't a school accept an actual rape victim (the actual context of that exchange)? However, I do not assume that the accusation or circumstances behind the transfer to necessarily become public. Factor in the competition for actual bodies to come to campus, and I find it much more likely someone could transfer than not.

You perfectly well know we are talking about those who are accused of rape.

You replied to this statement "And it may be in the honest victim's best interests to transfer if he/she cannot deal with his/her rapist walking around campus, but that does not make it right." So, the discussion into which you joined was not taking about those accused of rape.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Just because colleges have their own penal codes doesn't mean they are correct. Crimes should be tried in the courts. The general rules are different.
A student should not be expelled only on the basis of an accusation (true of false). If a student is expelled but found innocent, then he should have the right to sue the college. In fact that is happening

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6588

The account related on the linked site has already been discussed here. I sincerely doubt a number of alleged 'facts.' For one thing, no one could 'forbid' a student from having legal representation. It seems highly unlikely that any school would even attempt such a move. It is in no one's interests, most particularly from the point of view of the school, the school's interests.

The accused/expelled student has not 'proven' anything, although he has apparently submitted evidence which contradicts statements by his accuser. This 'evidence' may or may not be legitimate and may or may not present an accurate depiction of events. The university response may or may not be accurately reported here. I have been around enough universities to be highly skeptical that what is reported in campusreform.org's article is complete or completely accurate.

In the interest of full disclosure, I am skeptical of the complete and unbiased reporting of all online news sources.

Re: the facts in this case. We don't know. We only know what people with an ax to grind--the accused and an organization which is devoted to 'providing resources for conservative students.' It is not an impartial journalistic source.

As a general rule I put a lot more trust in the side that tries to present the details of the case. I see the guys doing this, not the women.