The Coming Democratic Schism

[NobleSavage]

This deepening division is apparent in a June Pew Research Center survey of more than 10,000 people, “Beyond Red vs. Blue.” The Pew survey points up the emergence of a cohort of younger voters who are loyal to the Democratic Party, but much less focused on economic redistribution than on issues of personal and sexual autonomy.

Back in April, Pew researchers wrote that “huge generation gaps have opened up in our political and social values, our economic well-being, our family structure, our racial and ethnic identity, our gender norms, our religious affiliation, and our technology use.” These trends, Pew noted, point “toward a future marked by the most striking social, racial, and economic shifts the country has seen in a century.”

Two other studies document the broad trends that the most recent Pew survey identified. A research paper, “Generational Difference in Perception of Tax Equity and Attitudes Towards Compliance,” by three professors of accounting — Susan Jurney, Tim Rupert and Martha Wartick — found that “the Millennial generation was less likely to recommend progressive taxation than” older generations.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/opinion/thomas-edsall-a-shift-in-young-democrats-values.html

 

[dismal]

“the Millennial generation was less likely to recommend progressive taxation than” older generations.

Well we better step up the indoctrination. I'm counting on them to be thrilled to pay for the retirement and medical benefits of people who are older richer and whiter than they are.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

“the Millennial generation was less likely to recommend progressive taxation than” older generations.

Well we better step up the indoctrination. I'm counting on them to be thrilled to pay for the retirement and medical benefits of people who are older richer and whiter than they are.

Damn straight. The little fuckers were minors when we agreed to have them pay for our overspending, so we had the legal right to make the decision for them. They ain't going to be weaselling out of the contract now.

 

[fromderinside]

You guys are amazing. How do you guys explain insurance as a going industry given your sage understanding that it's all about "me NOW!"

Who are those young fools who think life insurance is a good thing for them to do with part of their meager incomes? Why do they do it?

Maybe no one else has noticed. Just in case that is so, let me repeat, "Fear is our guiding principle". Its much stronger than greed even though you might not think so given the propaganda coming from those who've got. Cases in point. We spent 3 trillion dollars in an effort to keep terrorists from bothering us while we only spent 700 billion paying off the financial institutions when they fucked up.

 

[dismal]

You guys are amazing. How do you guys explain insurance as a going industry given your sage understanding that it's all about "me NOW!"

Who are those young fools who think life insurance is a good thing for them to do with part of their meager incomes? Why do they do it?

Maybe no one else has noticed. Just in case that is so, let me repeat, "Fear is our guiding principle". Its much stronger than greed even though you might not think so given the propaganda coming from those who've got. Cases in point. We spent 3 trillion dollars in an effort to keep terrorists from bothering us while we only spent 700 billion paying off the financial institutions when they fucked up.

I'm sold. Let's vote to have these youngsters to give us even more of their money.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Yes, the sky is falling.

 

[Canard DuJour]

What, young folks much less focused on economic issues than on personal and sexual autonomy?



Well I never, hoodathunkit? Yep, big changes are afoot.

..yawn

 

[Emily Lake]

I end up wondering how much of it is media drama feeding social perception feeding media drama feeding social perception feeding... you get the picture.

In other words, I wonder how much of the growing divide is due to the feedback cycle from the media schism creating dramatic entertainment and manufacturing news out of every little thing... and making every possible topic into a partisan sound byte?

 

[NobleSavage]

I end up wondering how much of it is media drama feeding social perception feeding media drama feeding social perception feeding... you get the picture.

In other words, I wonder how much of the growing divide is due to the feedback cycle from the media schism creating dramatic entertainment and manufacturing news out of every little thing... and making every possible topic into a partisan sound byte?

I've been pondering the same thing. I like to check out highly partisan blogs with a plugin called Ghostery. It lets you know who all the third party advertisers are and who is using tracking pixels , etc. If I get motivated I'm going to put it all in a spread sheet. The advertisers make money on controversy no doubt about it.

 

[prideandfall]

I end up wondering how much of it is media drama feeding social perception feeding media drama feeding social perception feeding... you get the picture.

In other words, I wonder how much of the growing divide is due to the feedback cycle from the media schism creating dramatic entertainment and manufacturing news out of every little thing... and making every possible topic into a partisan sound byte?

i generally ascribe this to a profound and deeply rooted inherently stupidity in the human population, that has been propagating this kind of crap basically since the wide circulation of print media.

dumb fucks believe every stupid thing they read in a paper/see on tv, leads to...
owners of paper/tv use their companies for propaganda, leads to...
dumb fucks believing in a narrative of the world as fed to them by rich white people, leads to...
rich white people becoming richer and more powerful, feeding more propaganda, leads to...
dumb fucks believe every stupid thing they read in a paper/see on tv, leads to...

it's a self perpetuating cycle that starts and ends with the fact that generally speaking people are fucking idiots.
the media is the way that it is because that's what people pay attention to and pay for, they shun and ignore any source of information that is actually informative.
i never have and never will understand why people try and blame a money making operation for simply delivering the product that is being demanded of them by the consumer public.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What, young folks much less focused on economic issues than on personal and sexual autonomy?



Well I never, hoodathunkit? Yep, big changes are afoot.

Yeah, the older Democrats will never get on board with shoving sexuality issues down the GOP's throat....

 

[dismal]

Uh oh, better amp up the indoctrination a couple notches...

Millennials Favor Private Accounts for Social Security Even if Benefit Cuts to Current Seniors Required

http://reason.com/blog/2014/07/17/millennials-favor-private-accounts-for-2

 

[NobleSavage]

Uh oh, better amp up the indoctrination a couple notches...

Millennials Favor Private Accounts for Social Security Even if Benefit Cuts to Current Seniors Required

http://reason.com/blog/2014/07/17/millennials-favor-private-accounts-for-2

I have mixed feelings about this. First, I'm a partner in an LLC, so I end up paying double the normal amount of SS. I would much rather invest my own money. I'd put it in something very stable with enough growth to keep up with inflation -- something like TIPS.

I figure whatever I get back from SS is going to be pathetic. However, I know there will be countless people who just blow their money if they are not forced to save it. If we stick to strong libertarian principles we have to say to these people who are 70 and can't work -- tough shit -- you didn't save when you had the chance -- now go live under a bridge and die. I don't think society would put up with that and then we would end up creating some new social welfare program.

 

[Emily Lake]

I end up wondering how much of it is media drama feeding social perception feeding media drama feeding social perception feeding... you get the picture.

In other words, I wonder how much of the growing divide is due to the feedback cycle from the media schism creating dramatic entertainment and manufacturing news out of every little thing... and making every possible topic into a partisan sound byte?

i generally ascribe this to a profound and deeply rooted inherently stupidity in the human population, that has been propagating this kind of crap basically since the wide circulation of print media.

dumb fucks believe every stupid thing they read in a paper/see on tv, leads to...
owners of paper/tv use their companies for propaganda, leads to...
dumb fucks believing in a narrative of the world as fed to them by rich white people, leads to...
rich white people becoming richer and more powerful, feeding more propaganda, leads to...
dumb fucks believe every stupid thing they read in a paper/see on tv, leads to...

it's a self perpetuating cycle that starts and ends with the fact that generally speaking people are fucking idiots.
the media is the way that it is because that's what people pay attention to and pay for, they shun and ignore any source of information that is actually informative.
i never have and never will understand why people try and blame a money making operation for simply delivering the product that is being demanded of them by the consumer public.

Aside from the need to lay it at the feet of "rich white people", I'm on board with what you're saying.

I rather think the color of their skin is irrelevant, and I rather think that the "rich" bit is inherent in media being a profit-seeking enterprise so kinda doesn't need to be called out as if it's something special and unique. I mean, if news were non-profit non-competitive, and rewarded for being honest and forthright I don't think we'd have this problem. But entertainment sells... and nothing is as entertaining as someone else's drama so there you go.

 

[Underseer]

i generally ascribe this to a profound and deeply rooted inherently stupidity in the human population, that has been propagating this kind of crap basically since the wide circulation of print media.

dumb fucks believe every stupid thing they read in a paper/see on tv, leads to...
owners of paper/tv use their companies for propaganda, leads to...
dumb fucks believing in a narrative of the world as fed to them by rich white people, leads to...
rich white people becoming richer and more powerful, feeding more propaganda, leads to...
dumb fucks believe every stupid thing they read in a paper/see on tv, leads to...

it's a self perpetuating cycle that starts and ends with the fact that generally speaking people are fucking idiots.
the media is the way that it is because that's what people pay attention to and pay for, they shun and ignore any source of information that is actually informative.
i never have and never will understand why people try and blame a money making operation for simply delivering the product that is being demanded of them by the consumer public.

Aside from the need to lay it at the feet of "rich white people", I'm on board with what you're saying.

[...]

Why would that bother you? Do you think it was poor black people who caused all that wealth and political power to shift from everyone else to a handful of rich people and large corporations?

 

[Emily Lake]

Aside from the need to lay it at the feet of "rich white people", I'm on board with what you're saying.

[...]

Why would that bother you? Do you think it was poor black people who caused all that wealth and political power to shift from everyone else to a handful of rich people and large corporations?

I think that the "white" part is not causal. It's an effect of the circumstances of history, but is not causal to the dynamic. Granted, there's probably some element of privilege that you could point to and play that up, but I think it pales beside the profit-seeking nature of news organizations that sell entertainment in lieu of information.

Same thing with the "rich" part. Yes, of course, they're rich... but that's endemic to the situation, and again, not causal.

Consider a thought experiment: Let's take a couple of news organization that function with the same rules as we have now... but let's transplant them to a racially and economically homogenous state, that has just now entered a free market economy. Everyone is the same color, and at the start, everyone has pretty much the same level of income. The news companies now begin to compete with each other using the same rules and dynamics that they have in the US.

Those news companies are going to play off of each other - they're going to manufacture drama, and play up every political viewpoint as being the Most Important Thing Ever (c). They're going to spin news, they're going to find the angle that makes every event as dramatic and momentous as it's possible to make while not outright lying. Because the more dramatic and exciting and entertaining it is... the more people will watch their news. The more controversy they can help create, the greater the political divide they can help engender, the greater their viewership.

The owners of those news companies are going to become rich - even though they didn't start that way. The richness of the owners is an effect of the system allowing competition under a capitalist economy - it's not causally related to the actual schism being created by the news organizations. And since we placed this in a racially homogeneous state, you can see that the race of the owners is likewise irrelevant.

Rich white men have plenty to answer for; I'm not excusing them for any of their many, many failings. I just don't find it useful or valid to use them as an easy out instead of trying to understand the real underlying dynamics of a system that is causing the problem. If you can't follow through to the root cause, you can't fix it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I have mixed feelings about this. First, I'm a partner in an LLC, so I end up paying double the normal amount of SS. I would much rather invest my own money. I'd put it in something very stable with enough growth to keep up with inflation -- something like TIPS.

There are the 401k, IRA, and Roth IRA. Private methods for saving for retirement already exist.

I figure whatever I get back from SS is going to be pathetic.

I don't know. Based on my statements I receive, if something were to happen to me, my wife and baby daughter will at least have a decent chunk of money that would otherwise not exist.

However, I know there will be countless people who just blow their money if they are not forced to save it.

This isn't necessarily about saving money. Hospital, nursing homes, lawsuits... lots of stuff can wreck the bank account. My Grandfather busted his ass off for his company. Got cancer and died before 60. Grandmother had a good deal of money, insurance and husband's savings. But by the time she died there was nothing left. Medical and nursing homes take everything you have left.

 

[arkirk]

Uh oh, better amp up the indoctrination a couple notches...



http://reason.com/blog/2014/07/17/millennials-favor-private-accounts-for-2

I have mixed feelings about this. First, I'm a partner in an LLC, so I end up paying double the normal amount of SS. I would much rather invest my own money. I'd put it in something very stable with enough growth to keep up with inflation -- something like TIPS.

I figure whatever I get back from SS is going to be pathetic. However, I know there will be countless people who just blow their money if they are not forced to save it. If we stick to strong libertarian principles we have to say to these people who are 70 and can't work -- tough shit -- you didn't save when you had the chance -- now go live under a bridge and die. I don't think society would put up with that and then we would end up creating some new social welfare program.

Are you a millennial? You sound awfully insensitive to me. I am 70 and can't find any work, though I am health and able to work. SS gives me a pitifully small pension. Have you ever seen people on the street in deep need up close? Has it ever occurred to you that some of them are there because they had their investments stolen from them? I frankly am appalled by your calloused attitude.

 

[Emily Lake]

There are the 401k, IRA, and Roth IRA. Private methods for saving for retirement already exist.

I think NobleSavage was saying that he would rather invest the money that he has to send to SS in his own private account. All the things you list would be on top of SS's cut, so they'd be further reductions to his income. That may or may not be a big deal depending on his income, number of dependents, cost of living in his area, and his expenses.

I don't know. Based on my statements I receive, if something were to happen to me, my wife and baby daughter will at least have a decent chunk of money that would otherwise not exist.

Sure. I think it's more complex though, especially if you've got a higher income. SS doesn't pay out more if you contribute more; it caps it after a bit, and IIRC there's some level of means-testing that they've put in place now (although I'm not sure, I haven't kept up with all the latest hot-off-the-press SS news). So if you're contributing the max amount, what you get back from SS is very small compared to what you would get if you were contributing that same amount in some other private account.

This isn't necessarily about saving money. Hospital, nursing homes, lawsuits... lots of stuff can wreck the bank account. My Grandfather busted his ass off for his company. Got cancer and died before 60. Grandmother had a good deal of money, insurance and husband's savings. But by the time she died there was nothing left. Medical and nursing homes take everything you have left.

Yes, that can certainly happen. But as NobleSavage mentioned, the other issue exists as well - some people won't save unless the government "makes" them save via payroll deduction to SS. Both problems exist simultaneously.

 

[arkirk]

I explored the reason.com website Noble Savage linked to in his post and have reason to doubt its information is accurate and not skewed by right wing interests. I cannot trust such a source. Taking a poll of misinformed individuals give skewed results.

Social security should be strengthened. Millenials have not been invested sufficiently to experience the losses older people know about.