The dangers of exaggerating the evils of Islam

[DrZoidberg]

What's the difference? Isn't Islam what Muslims make of it?

he think internet will kill islam not muslims

muslims without islam?

You'll have to explain what you mean. I don't follow you

 

[Syed]

Oh, look liberalisation. An Arabian Vogue. 20 year tops and we'll have a Arabian version of Playboy

http://en.vogue.me/

muslims will NEVER accept western whoredom culture

 

[DrZoidberg]

Oh, look liberalisation. An Arabian Vogue. 20 year tops and we'll have a Arabian version of Playboy

http://en.vogue.me/

muslims will NEVER accept western whoredom culture

You now have an Arabian Vogue, so I'd say you were just proven wrong. Enjoy your whoredom.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

What's the difference? Isn't Islam what Muslims make of it?

he think internet will kill islam not muslims

muslims without islam?

There's a name for that group. It's "atheists".

 

[Syed]

muslims will NEVER accept western whoredom culture

You now have an Arabian Vogue, so I'd say you were just proven wrong. Enjoy your whoredom.

lol

let discuss openly and honestly

i dont reject western whoredom culture because of my religion.....i rejected whoredom culture because it destroy family and makes YOUNG man to fantasize about those skin revealing whore........ and make young man to sleep around and NEVER get marry

what is the reason that white people not having children and you have to import labors from muslims's countries ?

 

[Keith&Co.]

.i rejected whoredom culture because it destroy family and makes YOUNG man to fantasize about those skin revealing whore........ and make young man to sleep around and NEVER get marry

Open and Honest?
I subscribed to Playboy from 1984 to 2016.
During my time in the Navy, 1980 to 2000, I have regularly read or watched porn. The longer we were deployed, the more I found appeal in the graphic stuff.

I've only ever slept with the woman I married. Never cheated on her even in foreign ports.

We've been married since 1987. Three sons.

I've written graphic fanfiction and original stories that include or are entirely comprised of sex scenes and gotten quite a few compliments on my skills.

Still haven't lost interest in my wife or been tempted with anyone else.




What I have noticed, though, is that when we were in foreign ports, it's the guys with the most repressive religious upbringing that react the most energetically to the opportunity to cheat. They've been denied, or denied themselves, regular outlets of their libidos for so long, they lack the tools to make rational choices about the opportunity.

This may be why so many businessmen traveling in Bangkok report rowdy hordes of muslims chugging liquor and staring at strippers or hiring prostitutes, cheerfully shouting 'Allah cannot see us here!'

It's not a superior morality if it's just fear of punishment.


Whereas I, for one, can be duty driver at an outing to a strip club, see nakedidity and find it within my power to walk away from the nakedidity.

what is the reason that white people not having children and you have to import labors from muslims's countries

I think you're making shit up. We have plenty of kids.
I think the people coming in from muslim countries are more motivated by escaping than being imported labors.

 

[funinspace]

What I have noticed, though, is that when we were in foreign ports, it's the guys with the most repressive religious upbringing that react the most energetically to the opportunity to cheat. They've been denied, or denied themselves, regular outlets of their libidos for so long, they lack the tools to make rational choices about the opportunity.

This may be why so many businessmen traveling in Bangkok report rowdy hordes of muslims chugging liquor and staring at strippers or hiring prostitutes, cheerfully shouting 'Allah cannot see us here!'

Of course Allah can't, after all he is a desert deity

 

[James Brown]

That's standard for developing countries. When kids stop being "free farm labor" and start being "resource-intensive time sinks", families naturally become smaller, regardless of a nation's dominant religion.

Declining birth rate in Developing Countries

In developing countries children are needed as a labour force and to provide care for their parents in old age. In these countries, fertility rates are higher due to the lack of access to contraceptives and generally lower levels of female education...

Developed countries tend to have a lower fertility rate due to lifestyle choices associated with economic affluence where mortality rates are low, birth control is easily accessible and children often can become an economic drain caused by housing, education cost and other cost involved in bringing up children....

 

[James Brown]

The irony here is almost a miracle in its own right: the most sexually repressive people found in the world today - people who are stirred to a killing rage by reruns of Baywatch - are lured to martyrdom by a conception of paradise that resembles nothing so much as an al fresco bordello.”

--Sam Harris, The End of Faith.

 

[funinspace]

what is the reason that white people not having children and you have to import labors from muslims's countries ?

You are funny..."white" people? What planet are you actually on? Japan has one of the lowest birth rates. The reasons are multi-faceted. But a key reason modern states are having lower birth rates is that we no longer have a large portion of the population that are farmers needing laborers and our children don't die left and right. People don't need their children to be their retirement home. Additionally, a big portion of the people in modern countries have realized that the planet is already over populated and simply doesn't need billions more humans running around. And a big portion of the people don't care what the RCC (or other antiquated sects) leadership says on birth control. The list goes on....

 

[ronburgundy]

I agree that is dangerous to pretend that the dangers of Islam are unique attributes to Islam (rather than all Abrahamic religions and other faith-based authoritarian ideologies). But two of your "erroneous statements" seem to deny the reality that the dangers of being faith-based and authoritarian are inherent (though not exclusive) to anything that can be reasonably categorized as "Islam".

Here's a couple of common erroneous statements.

1. Islam is always conservative, or that the only kind of Islam is conservative.


3. Islam is not liberalising.

These are the 2 highly related "errors" that I think confuse what is inherent to the Islamic ideology, and whether people can take the word Islam and cherry pick some its ideas to form something that is open-minded and progressive and thus lacks the most defining foundational features of Islam or any Abrahamic faith.

There is no way around the fact that all 3 Abrahamic religions are founded upon a conception of God as a an unquestionable authority who's will determines all that is good and bad, and what society should and should not allow. It is as authoritarian, anti-liberty, and anti-democracy as any idea gets. If those traits are not "conservative" and can be compatible with "liberalism" then conservative and liberal are meaningless words.

"Liberal Islam" is just like "liberal Christianity". What it actually means is less religious in any sincere ideological sense and just retaining the superficial appearance of the religion. There are many studies showing the the "liberals" within those religions are those that are simply less religious by any sensible measure of the concept. They are less convinced in God's existence, less clear on what the word "God" even refers to, put less stock in the value of their religions founding texts and treat them as useful fiction, rarely read those texts or attend services, don't defer to the authorities long recognized by their religion on matters of morality or politics, etc..

IOW, if take away the label and some superficial rituals around major holidays and just talk to these people about philosophy and politics and they would be hard to tell from agnostics and atheists.

However, much of what I think you are leading to regarding how we should deal with Muslims politically still holds. We shouldn't demonize or treat as an enemy every person who identifies as Muslim or partakes in some of the superficial trappings of that religion. But that is largely because of what I said above that the superficial trappings are not really the inherent aspects of the ideas themselves, and its those foundational ideas and the actions they lead to that are the real threat to all progressive secular values. In contrast, Muslims are a threat if they sincerely believe and act like they believe the core aspects of the Quran surrounding Allah's supreme authority and man's duty to create societies in accord with his will. IOW, Islam in any form that still qualifies is a dangerous threat, as is Christianity and Judaism. But since many people with social and superficial ties to those religions don't actually believe in those foundational ideas, they are not only not a threat but are probably an ally in helping to erode belief in those ideas and practices by essentially stealing away the the labels and trappings that allow people to pretend they are still adherents.

 

[DrZoidberg]

You now have an Arabian Vogue, so I'd say you were just proven wrong. Enjoy your whoredom.

lol

let discuss openly and honestly

i dont reject western whoredom culture because of my religion.....i rejected whoredom culture because it destroy family and makes YOUNG man to fantasize about those skin revealing whore........ and make young man to sleep around and NEVER get marry

what is the reason that white people not having children and you have to import labors from muslims's countries ?

What's your point exactly? If that's what we do it's because that's what we want to do. Are you against freedom? Becoming a Muslim doesn't make you a slave. A Muslim is just as free as a non-Muslim. They just chose to to the Islamic thing. Or if they don't, they don't.

The Islamic world will become just as free as the western world. It's just a matter of time. And then Muslims will have to put up with pictures of naked women and whatnot. That's what a modern society looks like. There's no going back Syed. You can either embrace it or be bitter about it. It's going to happen

 

[DrZoidberg]

However, much of what I think you are leading to regarding how we should deal with Muslims politically still holds. We shouldn't demonize or treat as an enemy every person who identifies as Muslim or partakes in some of the superficial trappings of that religion. But that is largely because of what I said above that the superficial trappings are not really the inherent aspects of the ideas themselves, and its those foundational ideas and the actions they lead to that are the real threat to all progressive secular values. In contrast, Muslims are a threat if they sincerely believe and act like they believe the core aspects of the Quran surrounding Allah's supreme authority and man's duty to create societies in accord with his will. IOW, Islam in any form that still qualifies is a dangerous threat, as is Christianity and Judaism. But since many people with social and superficial ties to those religions don't actually believe in those foundational ideas, they are not only not a threat but are probably an ally in helping to erode belief in those ideas and practices by essentially stealing away the the labels and trappings that allow people to pretend they are still adherents.

Ok, so if I follow you the difference is that in the Christian world religion is mostly decoration while in Islam people take the stuff seriously. I think Christianity and Islam are too similar to think that that difference lies in the religions or their sacred texts. I think any differences is best explained by the society the religion finds itself in and the social and economic realities of living in that society. Any society without a strong state, healthy economy and social welfare will gravitate towards clan systems and social pressures to obey family patriarchs. Because family is all you got. But in modern states that structure will just fall apart. I think that can explain any differences between Islam and Christianity.

Also, the Middle-East. The Ottoman empire was increasingly corrupt and dysfunctional up until it fell apart in 1921. And since then the Middle-East has been in near total never ending chaos. That chaos exploited by authoritarian regimes who had no interest in creating stability, since that would make people secure enough to question to the dictator. They really haven't had a break. And what to people do in times of crisis? They turn to religion.

Once the Middle-East gets itself sorted Islam will become as pathetic as Christianity today. That certainly is what we see among most Muslims living in the west. They're rapidly liberalising

 

[ronburgundy]

However, much of what I think you are leading to regarding how we should deal with Muslims politically still holds. We shouldn't demonize or treat as an enemy every person who identifies as Muslim or partakes in some of the superficial trappings of that religion. But that is largely because of what I said above that the superficial trappings are not really the inherent aspects of the ideas themselves, and its those foundational ideas and the actions they lead to that are the real threat to all progressive secular values. In contrast, Muslims are a threat if they sincerely believe and act like they believe the core aspects of the Quran surrounding Allah's supreme authority and man's duty to create societies in accord with his will. IOW, Islam in any form that still qualifies is a dangerous threat, as is Christianity and Judaism. But since many people with social and superficial ties to those religions don't actually believe in those foundational ideas, they are not only not a threat but are probably an ally in helping to erode belief in those ideas and practices by essentially stealing away the the labels and trappings that allow people to pretend they are still adherents.

Ok, so if I follow you the difference is that in the Christian world religion is mostly decoration while in Islam people take the stuff seriously. I think Christianity and Islam are too similar to think that that difference lies in the religions or their sacred texts. I think any differences is best explained by the society the religion finds itself in and the social and economic realities of living in that society. Any society without a strong state, healthy economy and social welfare will gravitate towards clan systems and social pressures to obey family patriarchs. Because family is all you got. But in modern states that structure will just fall apart. I think that can explain any differences between Islam and Christianity.

You summarize my main point accurately, but your explanation is just the other side of the same coin (or parts of the same elephant, if you will). Western society is what it is, with a strong constitutional democratic government because of secularism and the weakening of religious power and influence, due to the influence of the Enlightenment. That secular context has in turn replaced most of the core ideas and values of Christianity for most Christians, leaving behind a veneer of mostly labels and empty ritual. Although, residual remain even in "liberal" Christians who are more likely than full blown non-believers to retreat to anti-reason and anti-liberty stances in times of crises and stress. IOW, the societal context that Christianity exist in changed over the last few centuries (with little help and much resistance from Chirstianity itself), and that context shapes most people's core ideas and values away from what is definitional the Christianity, even though many seek to retain the superficial identity of being a "Christian". Also, those who still retain the core (and thus dangerous) aspects of religious ideology are also made less dangerous because they are in the minority and conform (even if only in public) to the prevailing secular notions and values that regard personal liberty and reason as central to morality and truth, respectively. As this election showed though, the moment they get a glimpse that they might have the numbers to gain control, the true nature of their religious beliefs comes out and they stop pretending to care about reason, liberty, or even basic human decency.

Once the Middle-East gets itself sorted Islam will become as pathetic as Christianity today. That certainly is what we see among most Muslims living in the west. They're rapidly liberalising

I don't disagree with that, but becoming less influenced by Islam and more secular is inherent and neccessary for any such liberalizing, in fact it is part a precondition and part what it means to liberalize. But then that is NOT Islam itself liberalizing but rather people retaining an Islamic veneer while rejecting most Islamic ideas in favor of secular and liberal ideas and values.

 

[Syed]

what is the reason that white people not having children and you have to import labors from muslims's countries ?

You are funny..."white" people? What planet are you actually on? Japan has one of the lowest birth rates. The reasons are multi-faceted. But a key reason modern states are having lower birth rates is that we no longer have a large portion of the population that are farmers needing laborers and our children don't die left and right. People don't need their children to be their retirement home. Additionally, a big portion of the people in modern countries have realized that the planet is already over populated and simply doesn't need billions more humans running around. And a big portion of the people don't care what the RCC (or other antiquated sects) leadership says on birth control. The list goes on....

western people dont want children because they enjoy sex with multiple partners and adopt a dog or cat for not to be lonely

 

[Tom Sawyer]

western people dont want children because they enjoy sex with multiple partners and adopt a dog or cat for not to be lonely

Untrue. Many have pet rabbits or goldfish instead.

 

[Syed]

Open and Honest?
I subscribed to Playboy from 1984 to 2016.
During my time in the Navy, 1980 to 2000, I have regularly read or watched porn. The longer we were deployed, the more I found appeal in the graphic stuff.

.

why did you watched porn? did you enjoy it? did you masturbated ? do you like if your wife watch porn?

I've only ever slept with the woman I married. Never cheated on her even in foreign ports.

We've been married since 1987. Three sons.

are you exceptional in america or every body like you?

your children also had sex with ONLY one woman?

 

[blastula]

Are you now or have you ever been a masturbator?

 

[Keith&Co.]

why did you watched porn?

Typically because I was making patrols on a submarine with an all-male crew and I wanted some stimulation.

did you enjoy it?

yes.

did you masturbated ?

That would be the end-goal of seeking stimulation, yes. I did.

do you like if your wife watch porn?

I can't imagine why I wouldn't like it...

I've only ever slept with the woman I married. Never cheated on her even in foreign ports.

We've been married since 1987. Three sons.

are you exceptional in america or every body like you?

It doesn't matter, syed. You speak in absolutes. You didn't say anything about a majority or minority. So just one counter-example proves your statements to be incorrect.
I'm speaking openly and honestly, as you requested/suggested, and my life proves your bullshit is wrong.

your children also had sex with ONLY one woman?

Far as I know, the gay one hasn't had sex with ANY women.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't disagree with that, but becoming less influenced by Islam and more secular is inherent and neccessary for any such liberalizing, in fact it is part a precondition and part what it means to liberalize. But then that is NOT Islam itself liberalizing but rather people retaining an Islamic veneer while rejecting most Islamic ideas in favor of secular and liberal ideas and values.

Yeah, but how isn't that exactly what happened in the west? I've read the Bible and my interpretation is that Christianity is incompatible with democracy as well as incompatible with freedom of religion. Western culture is pretty much the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

I do have heard one argument for that western democratic values spring from the Bible, and that is that everybody, including kings and popes are equal under God. So that's nice. But the exact same thing applies to the Quran. Christianity and Islam are exactly the same here.