The dangers of exaggerating the evils of Islam

[DrZoidberg]

do you like if your wife watch porn?

That's the saddest sentence I've seen all week. Let's unpack this.

You are incredibly insecure. You feel in your heart that you are not good enough for your wife, so do you your best to shield her from any information that might reveal the truth to her.

Why do you feel you are not good enough for your wife? She married you. Isn't that proof enough that you are? What are you afraid of? Are you afraid your wife might reject you if she had the chance?

I have a very nerdy brother. Once he showed me the porn he was downloading. I asked him if his wife was into the same porn. He got red faced and said that he could never talk with her about that. I didn't say it, but I wondered why the hell he married her? If you can't talk to your wife about your sexual tastes then what have you got together? Being open and honest with your partner is what makes a relationship. And sex is at the core of what it means to be human.

I've always been 100% open and honest with all my girlfriends about what I like. I've watched porn together with all my girlfriends. To me it's extremely valuable. I learn things about them when I see the porn they like. I don't feel threatened. I just get happy that they get turned on. And we're all sexually weird in one way or another. Learning about your partners quirks is what makes the bond strong.

My ex wife once revealed she got turned on by transvestites. Not only. But it was a thing. I have no leanings that way. But one day I let her dress me up as a woman and do my make up. Just to make her happy. I didn't let her shave my beard off. So I was a bearded tranny. And it was great fun. Ultimately we didn't have sex that day. Probably because I wasn't into it enough. I certainly tried my best. I really took this seriously to make her happy. But she just couldn't stop laughing. Anyway... just a snapshot. I have fond memories of that whole day. Not because the dressing up as a woman. That really does nothing for me. But because she was so into it. We got a deeper emotional connection, and our bond was stronger after that. Which is what relationships are all about. So it's all good. We didn't do it again. But it was great.

 

[funinspace]

do you like if your wife watch porn?

That's the saddest sentence I've seen all week. Let's unpack this.

Aren't you rushing things? Has he even given you a key to the place yet

Geesh, probably moving in w/o even being asked to boot...

 

[funinspace]

You are funny..."white" people? What planet are you actually on? Japan has one of the lowest birth rates. The reasons are multi-faceted. But a key reason modern states are having lower birth rates is that we no longer have a large portion of the population that are farmers needing laborers and our children don't die left and right. People don't need their children to be their retirement home. Additionally, a big portion of the people in modern countries have realized that the planet is already over populated and simply doesn't need billions more humans running around. And a big portion of the people don't care what the RCC (or other antiquated sects) leadership says on birth control. The list goes on....

western people dont want children because they enjoy sex with multiple partners and adopt a dog or cat for not to be lonely

I've been with my wife for just over 30 years now...but you keep telling yourself that.

Just how many people do you think this planet can hold without even more major problems? If everyone kept acting like rabbits, the planet would be even more screwed up than it is now with billions more to feed and shelter.

 

[Keith&Co.]

do you like if your wife watch porn?

That's the saddest sentence I've seen all week.

The author of Eiger Sanction explained, in another book, why Mid Eastern men were so hung up about virgins.
They cannot stand competition because they cannot stand up to competition.

 

[funinspace]

That's the saddest sentence I've seen all week.

The author of Eiger Sanction explained, in another book, why Mid Eastern men were so hung up about virgins.
They cannot stand competition because they cannot stand up to competition.

Oh...don't be so hard on them

 

[DrZoidberg]

That's the saddest sentence I've seen all week.

The author of Eiger Sanction explained, in another book, why Mid Eastern men were so hung up about virgins.
They cannot stand competition because they cannot stand up to competition.

Well... obviously. Every cultural expression which is about reigning in sexual "deviancy" is ultimately just about sexual insecurities. Which of course is the result of that people in that culture aren't trained to connect with their partners emotionally. It's so sad. But I don't think this is a western vs eastern thing. I actually think it's quite a mixed bag all over.

Anybody who is confident and secure isn't going to have a hang up about their partners watching porn. But those people aren't going to speak up. The only people you ever hear from are the extremely insecure people.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Anybody who is confident and secure... aren't going to speak up. ...

I think you're going to the wrong forums.

 

[Syed]

lol

let discuss openly and honestly

i dont reject western whoredom culture because of my religion.....i rejected whoredom culture because it destroy family and makes YOUNG man to fantasize about those skin revealing whore........ and make young man to sleep around and NEVER get marry

what is the reason that white people not having children and you have to import labors from muslims's countries ?

What's your point exactly? If that's what we do it's because that's what we want to do. Are you against freedom?

sexual immorality is not freedom, sexual immorality destroy family, community, nation, civilization

because of sexual immorality western civilization is on death row, white people cant even replace population they only want sexual pleasure but children

you cant have both immoral sexual pleasure and family with children

 

[Syed]

western people dont want children because they enjoy sex with multiple partners and adopt a dog or cat for not to be lonely

I've been with my wife for just over 30 years now...but you keep telling yourself that.

.

i am not talking about YOU but western people in general

 

[DrZoidberg]

What's your point exactly? If that's what we do it's because that's what we want to do. Are you against freedom?

sexual immorality is not freedom, sexual immorality destroy family, community, nation, civilization

because of sexual immorality western civilization is on death row, white people cant even replace population they only want sexual pleasure but children

you cant have both immoral sexual pleasure and family with children

I don't think that makes any sense. I'm pretty sure sexual pleasure is perfectly possible to combine with family. Not only possible, but critical. In a society where women are our equals and free you better keep her sexually satisfied or she will leave you. And that's guaranteed to destroy families.

I think you are wrong. Super wrong. And I think it's your attitude that will destroy family, community... ultimately nation and civilisation.

Also... what do you mean with immoral sexual pleasure? Can you give an example of a sexual pleasure that is immoral? And we're only counting sexual pleasure that isn't hurting anybody involved.

 

[Keith&Co.]

sexual immorality is not freedom,

No, that's exactly freedom. making your own decisions about what is and isn't immoral without pretending there's a skybeast who's a better judge: Freedom

sexual immorality destroy family, community, nation, civilization

Nope.

because of sexual immorality western civilization is on death row,

Such strange fantasies you have....

white people cant even replace population they only want sexual pleasure but children

You're back to the 'white people = western civ' thing. Kind of a waste of time, being such a racist, syed.

you cant have both immoral sexual pleasure and family with children

That may or may not be true. You said it so I tend to doubt it.
I DO know _I_ can have sexual pleasure, which YOU think is immoral, and raise moral children.

But then again, there are plenty of people who think that having children is immoral.
There are people who think my choice to have children with my partner is immoral.
Well, they think my choice of partner is immoral, my children make me a race traitor...

There are so many moral codes out there, Syed, why in the name of the FSM would I think yours is any more useful than the guy's who thinks muslims should be shot on sight?

- - - Updated - - -

I've been with my wife for just over 30 years now...but you keep telling yourself that.

.

i am not talking about YOU but western people in general

You're talking in sweeping absolutes, syed. ANY counter-evidence proves you wrong.

 

[Syed]

do you like if your wife watch porn?

That's the saddest sentence I've seen all week. Let's unpack this.

You are incredibly insecure. You feel in your heart that you are not good enough for your wife, so do you your best to shield her from any information that might reveal the truth to her.

Why do you feel you are not good enough for your wife? She married you. Isn't that proof enough that you are? What are you afraid of? Are you afraid your wife might reject you if she had the chance?

I have a very nerdy brother. Once he showed me the porn he was downloading. I asked him if his wife was into the same porn. He got red faced and said that he could never talk with her about that. I didn't say it, but I wondered why the hell he married her? If you can't talk to your wife about your sexual tastes then what have you got together? Being open and honest with your partner is what makes a relationship. And sex is at the core of what it means to be human.

I've always been 100% open and honest with all my girlfriends about what I like. I've watched porn together with all my girlfriends. To me it's extremely valuable. I learn things about them when I see the porn they like. I don't feel threatened. I just get happy that they get turned on. And we're all sexually weird in one way or another. Learning about your partners quirks is what makes the bond strong.

My ex wife once revealed she got turned on by transvestites. Not only. But it was a thing. I have no leanings that way. But one day I let her dress me up as a woman and do my make up. Just to make her happy. I didn't let her shave my beard off. So I was a bearded tranny. And it was great fun. Ultimately we didn't have sex that day. Probably because I wasn't into it enough. I certainly tried my best. I really took this seriously to make her happy. But she just couldn't stop laughing. Anyway... just a snapshot. I have fond memories of that whole day. Not because the dressing up as a woman. That really does nothing for me. But because she was so into it. We got a deeper emotional connection, and our bond was stronger after that. Which is what relationships are all about. So it's all good. We didn't do it again. But it was great.

you explained very well why western civilization is on DEATH ROW

 

[DrZoidberg]

you explained very well why western civilization is on DEATH ROW

All you have to do now is explain why?

Why does mutual respect and good communication between husband and wife lead to the fall of western civilisation?

Do you believe that it is important to have contempt for your wife for it to be a successful marriage?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

you explained very well why western civilization is on DEATH ROW

All you have to do now is explain why?

Why does mutual respect and good communication between husband and wife lead to the fall of western civilisation?

Do you believe that it is important to have contempt for your wife for it to be a successful marriage?

Dude. Sex is meant to be done in the missionary position with the lights off and be finished with as quickly as possible so that both you and your wife can turn away from each other and cry silently. Anything else is an abomination in the eyes of Allah and it makes you personally responsible for the destruction of your entire civilization by divine wrath. If you can't even agree with that kind of basic premise then there's really no point in even trying to have an adult discussion with you.

 

[funinspace]

I've been with my wife for just over 30 years now...but you keep telling yourself that.

.

i am not talking about YOU but western people in general

Oky doky, but you are still wrong. The US for example still has a growing population. The mish mash of countries with negative population growth rates, is hardly limited to "white" "western people". So as usual your fantasy doesn't match up with facts/reality. See listing below.

https://zgeography.wordpress.com/20...es-currently-experiencing-population-decline/

Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Cook Islands, Croatia, Cuba, Czech Republic, Estonia, Georgia, Germany, Guyana, Hungary, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Maldives, Micronesia, Moldova, Montenegro, Poland, Puerto Rico, Romania, Russia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, Serbia, Slovenia, South Africa, Trinidad and Tobago, and Ukraine

Secondly, the the negative rates are in reality fairly small and trivial. The world has way more people that it needs by any rational definition. Having a negative population rate hardly puts a country on DEATH ROW. The Chinese went thru several periods of rather harsh population declines, yet here they are centuries upon centuries later as the second largest population in the world in country ranking. As usual your arguments are just your emotional outburst bereft of fact or reasoning.

 

[ronburgundy]

I don't disagree with that, but becoming less influenced by Islam and more secular is inherent and neccessary for any such liberalizing, in fact it is part a precondition and part what it means to liberalize. But then that is NOT Islam itself liberalizing but rather people retaining an Islamic veneer while rejecting most Islamic ideas in favor of secular and liberal ideas and values.

Yeah, but how isn't that exactly what happened in the west? I've read the Bible and my interpretation is that Christianity is incompatible with democracy as well as incompatible with freedom of religion. Western culture is pretty much the opposite of what the Bible teaches.

Agreed. The Bible, and monotheism in general is incompatible with democracy, liberal tolerance, and respect for personal liberty.
It isn't a coincidence that Biblical influence in Europe was at its height during the period of the most organized, wide-spread, and long-lasting assaults on free thinking in human history (the inquisition). And it is not coincidence that the erosion of Church authority coincided with the rise of democracy and (even more important) philosophical respect for liberty. There is an inherent logical tethering of liberty and reasoned thought, each of which depends on the other.

But a number of contextual historic factors came together allow the Enlightenment ideas to take root. It isn't clear that the current Muslim world has the same kind of contextual factors (even without Western meddling) that helped the West get out from under the thumb of religion. OTOH, modern information tech exposes those cultures to the already established and arguably innately appealing secular societies, so they are not starting from scratch.

I do have heard one argument for that western democratic values spring from the Bible, and that is that everybody, including kings and popes are equal under God

Yeah, but that notion is as much bullshit as "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner." That notion really just comes down to God loves obedience to his rules that have nothing to do with actual moral decency, and hates it when people think for themselves and do what they love rather than what God arbitrarily says is okay.
The Bible increasingly ruled Europe over thousands of years, during which there was no moral and political progress (and often regress). The influence of the Bible and the rise of democracy and personal liberty have a strong negative correlation both over time within societies and between sub-cultures at any given point in time. That's is the exact opposite of what is predicted by any theory that these principles were derived from the Bible, and supports that the Biblical ideas impede these principles.

The only sense of equality in the Bible is in the sense that all people are equally unequal to God, and equally his servant, subject to his unquestionable authority. But of course there is no actual God, only humans that invented him and invent his will according to their own. So the Bible's notion of God's authority inherently promotes some humans having unquestionable authority over others.
Also, the whole point of democracy is for each person to influence rules and laws in their own interests. But the Bible is very clear that societies should have laws that serve God's interests. Within all Abrahamic monotheism, humans don't get to negotiate the morality that serves as the basis for law. That precludes the possibility of any real democracy on any matters where the Bible might have some implications (just about every issue).

I don't know what can be done to expedite the secularization of the Middle-East, which is neccessary for any real moral and political progress there. But it certainly seems that giving a common enemy to the established authorities of Islam, the most devout Muslims, and liberal "Muslims" moving away from Islamic ideas is a surefire way to impede that secularization.

 

[ronburgundy]

you explained very well why western civilization is on DEATH ROW

The reason that western civilization has the ability to fall is that is has risen in the first place, in constrast to the Islamic world which is still at the bottom of humanity and barely qualifies as a civilization (at least the "civilized" part).

The worst case scenario for the West is that it falls back to the depths of human indecency and irrationality that rules all Islamic nations and used to rule Europe when Christianity ruled Europe.

While the US and parts of the West are currently taking a step backwards, the long term march of progress will continue. The reason the Muslim world must be so internally oppressive is that real liberty and reason cannot be put back in the box once let out. The Muslim world would secularize and Westernize without constant murderous oppression by Islamic authorities. The last two centuries in the West is the first time in human history with sustained, large-scale constitutional democracies, which is also why there has been the greatest exponential leap in human quality of life and longevity (things all humans innately desire). Too many generations across too many cultures have now experienced this for it to not continue, and too many billions who have not experienced it have caught a glimpse of it for it not to keep spreading.

 

[DrZoidberg]

But a number of contextual historic factors came together allow the Enlightenment ideas to take root. It isn't clear that the current Muslim world has the same kind of contextual factors (even without Western meddling) that helped the West get out from under the thumb of religion. OTOH, modern information tech exposes those cultures to the already established and arguably innately appealing secular societies, so they are not starting from scratch.

Ok, let's pick this apart. What factors in the west do you think led to the enlightenment and why do you think those factors don't necessarily apply to the Islamic world?

I don't know what can be done to expedite the secularization of the Middle-East, which is neccessary for any real moral and political progress there. But it certainly seems that giving a common enemy to the established authorities of Islam, the most devout Muslims, and liberal "Muslims" moving away from Islamic ideas is a surefire way to impede that secularization.

I don't think we need to try all that hard. I think religious extremism is a symptom of social and economic instability. Stable countries give rise to liberal religion. I really think it's that simple. The problem is that in the Middle-East we have string of fascist governments. Well... the method with which fascists cling to power is to perpetuate the social instability and sense of threat. They need to go. But I'm short on solutions here

Yeah, it's a complex web of factors that make stable modern secular governments possible.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't think we need to try all that hard. I think religious extremism is a symptom of social and economic instability. Stable countries give rise to liberal religion. I really think it's that simple. The problem is that in the Middle-East we have string of fascist governments. Well... the method with which fascists cling to power is to perpetuate the social instability and sense of threat. They need to go. But I'm short on solutions here

Have you tried invading them and toppling these fascist dictators so that the people will throw flowers at your feet and let you take their oil? I hear that can be a successful solution.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think we need to try all that hard. I think religious extremism is a symptom of social and economic instability. Stable countries give rise to liberal religion. I really think it's that simple. The problem is that in the Middle-East we have string of fascist governments. Well... the method with which fascists cling to power is to perpetuate the social instability and sense of threat. They need to go. But I'm short on solutions here

Have you tried invading them and toppling these fascist dictators so that the people will throw flowers at your feet and let you take their oil? I hear that can be a successful solution.

I see that as stirring the pot to see what happens. History has shown that successful transitions to low corruption modern democracies that, pretty much, the only way that works is gradual transition over time. But this requires a government that is ok with it. Back in the 19'th century authoritarian governments operated with the delusion that if you threw the revolting peasants a bone now and again they would shut up. Dictators since then have wisened up. And they've stopped doing this. This is a problem. And probably requires help from outside. If an authoritarian government just won't budge an inch why not invade? What comes after at least won't be any worse. ISIS instead of Saddam and Assad is a pretty "samey" trade.

There are exceptions where democratic revolutions have worked (like USA) but they are extremely rare.