The dark side side of the force

[Draconis]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

 

[DolphinDynasty]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

Well, as much as the soundtracks an sound effects are still some of the most awesome in history, George Lucas was a rather shit storyteller. And really, nobody yet has filled in the holes. For example, nobody explains what the Force is, where it comes from, and why it is only those who train to be Jedi can access it. Much as they're neat fairytales, like all others, filled with such nonsensical holes. Why is it that every ship going into and out of hyper-drive does not simply get pulled apart twice over, plus everything inside them? How come nobody but a Jedi thought to learn how to use a lightsabre? Almost all of them switches, save for Mace Windu's, and nobody tried wielding one? Ever? They're lazer swords, for earth's sake, somebody somewhere near a Jedi had to have sparked one up and twirled it about cuz who wouldn't? Why'd anybody ever buy the idea killing all current Jedi would destroy the Force if they never seem to know how it comes about? That's like killing all current mutants in Marvel Universe cannon and expecting no new mutants. Ever.

Just sayin', it's rife with issues.

As to temptation to the Dark Side, why does a kid told never to touch the supposedly uber powerful if eaten "space cake" suddenly want to do only that? cuz people told him not to touch the supposedly uber-powerful space cake, and the kid does and eventually finds out the hard way it just leads to insanity and lots of failed actions, instead of wonderful nummies.

Funny thing about the Dark Side, I don't recall yet if a lady Jedi went over that way, or any other alien races aside from Darth Maul, who made it look kinda less of a shit way to go insane, but meh.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Yoda said the Dark Side wasn't stronger. He said it was "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

The Dark and Light have been dueling for millennia, sometimes one gets the upper hand for a time, sometimes another.

As to DolphinDynasty's plot holes: actually many of those questions are answered. Some are satisfying answers, some aren't. For example, it's explained (By Obi Wan) as "an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together." Apparently (as explained in the first movie) it's a person's symbiosis with "midichlorians" that allow them to tap into, feel and control this energy field. The more midichlorians you have, the more powerful you are.

Hyperspace I'm not going to explain because faster than light travel is a mainstay of science fiction and none of them can fully explain it, of course.

As to your lightsaber questions, from my understanding (mostly because I don't remember where I learned much of this info and I'm too lazy to look it up) anyone CAN wield a lightsaber. In fact in Episode VII Flynn wields one for awhile and as far as I know he's not force sensitive. General Grievous wields many at a time with his droid body and four arms. It's a difficult weapon to make (one must be an advanced force user to line the force crystals up correctly) and wield. Wielding is very difficult because it's a moderately heavy hilt but if you think about it, the blade has no mass, yet it cuts through just about anything. From what I remember, a lightsaber is just much more effective in the hands of a jedi of some sort, that uses his force abilities to enhance his combat with the weapon. As far as killing all Jedi supposedly removing the force, that's never stated as far as I know. The force is partly instinctual to a Jedi, but a lot of it is knowledge and introspection. Technique and practice. I think the idea was that Darth Sidious (and if there's anything Lucas sucked at it was creating NAMES) was trying to eliminate the light side Jedi by killing as many off as possible. This meant as new Jedi were born, they wouldn't have masters and would be unable to fulfill their full potential. Darth Vader after all was one of those tasked with killing Jedi that survived order 66.

So there ya go. Thanks for giving me an excuse to geek out.

 

[Angry Floof]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

It's because George Lucas is a sophomoric fraud who doesn't have the depth to understand what he's pretending to illustrate about human nature. My guess is that he originally wrote the story from a mentality of what seemed cool in futuristic sci fi and not from any philosophical tendencies. Then the movies took over pop culture for a few decades, and then somebody from the Joseph Campbell Foundation thought they'd grab that coattail and fawn about how Hero of a Thousand Faces inspired George Doofus. Then I have the misfortune of watching an interview with him basically saying, "Yeah, I meant to do that. That's the ticket. I'm totally, like, deep and philosophical and insightful and stuff."

He's lucky he thought up Princess Leia, if in fact he was the one who did. In the context of the whole story told in the first film, it looks like a teenage boy's idea of a great dramatic story, but then maybe his mom made her up and told him if he put her in the story, he'd get all kinds of chicks. Given all I've seen of George Lucas, I'd say this is quite plausible.

 

[Ford]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

I've long thought that there really isn't any "dark side" of the Force. It is a force, after all. Does gravity have a dark side? No, and I think the real explanation is that people who are "seduced by the Dark Side" are really just giving in to their own darkness and using the Force in an evil way. The Dark Side is within them, not within the Force.

As for whether it is more powerful, I'd say a case could be made. The Sith managed to kill almost all the "plucky Jedi" at once and form a galactic empire that lasted decades. Had Vader not had that last minute change of heart, Luke would be dead, too.

 

[LordKiran]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

It's because George Lucas is a sophomoric fraud who doesn't have the depth to understand what he's pretending to illustrate about human nature. My guess is that he originally wrote the story from a mentality of what seemed cool in futuristic sci fi and not from any philosophical tendencies. Then the movies took over pop culture for a few decades, and then somebody from the Joseph Campbell Foundation thought they'd grab that coattail and fawn about how Hero of a Thousand Faces inspired George Doofus. Then I have the misfortune of watching an interview with him basically saying, "Yeah, I meant to do that. That's the ticket. I'm totally, like, deep and philosophical and insightful and stuff."

He's lucky he thought up Princess Leia, if in fact he was the one who did. In the context of the whole story told in the first film, it looks like a teenage boy's idea of a great dramatic story, but then maybe his mom made her up and told him if he put her in the story, he'd get all kinds of chicks. Given all I've seen of George Lucas, I'd say this is quite plausible.

Or he just used Cliff's Notes. To be honest, I quite like Star Wars as it stands, without the added context of expanded Universe which has only ever served to completely cheapen and devalue the source material because it was made by fan-boys who took a creative writing class in college and GL will sign his name off on just about anything and everything.

 

[LordKiran]

Yoda said the Dark Side wasn't stronger. He said it was "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

The Dark and Light have been dueling for millennia, sometimes one gets the upper hand for a time, sometimes another.

As to DolphinDynasty's plot holes: actually many of those questions are answered. Some are satisfying answers, some aren't. For example, it's explained (By Obi Wan) as "an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together." Apparently (as explained in the first movie) it's a person's symbiosis with "midichlorians" that allow them to tap into, feel and control this energy field. The more midichlorians you have, the more powerful you are.

Hyperspace I'm not going to explain because faster than light travel is a mainstay of science fiction and none of them can fully explain it, of course.

As to your lightsaber questions, from my understanding (mostly because I don't remember where I learned much of this info and I'm too lazy to look it up) anyone CAN wield a lightsaber. In fact in Episode VII Flynn wields one for awhile and as far as I know he's not force sensitive. General Grievous wields many at a time with his droid body and four arms. It's a difficult weapon to make (one must be an advanced force user to line the force crystals up correctly) and wield. Wielding is very difficult because it's a moderately heavy hilt but if you think about it, the blade has no mass, yet it cuts through just about anything. From what I remember, a lightsaber is just much more effective in the hands of a jedi of some sort, that uses his force abilities to enhance his combat with the weapon. As far as killing all Jedi supposedly removing the force, that's never stated as far as I know. The force is partly instinctual to a Jedi, but a lot of it is knowledge and introspection. Technique and practice. I think the idea was that Darth Sidious (and if there's anything Lucas sucked at it was creating NAMES) was trying to eliminate the light side Jedi by killing as many off as possible. This meant as new Jedi were born, they wouldn't have masters and would be unable to fulfill their full potential. Darth Vader after all was one of those tasked with killing Jedi that survived order 66.

So there ya go. Thanks for giving me an excuse to geek out.

Midichlorians are just turtles all the way down. They don't actually answer anything. If anything, they just raise more questions than you would have had if you had kept it vague and undefined. What the force is doesn't even matter since the stories aren't about the force. They're about the characters and their struggles.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

If remember the system correctly, the analogy is drugs. If they use it indiscriminately it corrupts them and they become slaves to the force. They get consumed from inside.

In order to be a jedi and still healthy in the head it can only be used for good and they need to meditate a lot. That's why they work so much on self control.

But it's not a perfect system. Star Wars is a pretty shallow universe. Very little of it makes much sense when studied.

Anyhoo, he did write this in the 70'ies. Drugs was a big thing back then.

 

[LordKiran]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

If remember the system correctly, the analogy is drugs. If they use it indiscriminately it corrupts them and they become slaves to the force. They get consumed from inside.

In order to be a jedi and still healthy in the head it can only be used for good and they need to meditate a lot. That's why they work so much on self control.

But it's not a perfect system. Star Wars is a pretty shallow universe. Very little of it makes much sense when studied.

Anyhoo, he did write this in the 70'ies. Drugs was a big thing back then.

The force makes more sense if you put Star Wars in the context of a dollarstore paperback fantasy novel in that it doesn't have to make sense at all. Magic exists because it's more fantastical and wondrous for the reader if it does.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Yes, actually the midichlorian thing doesn't bother me like it does some. As in life, some things being mysterious only add fun to the story.

 

[LordKiran]

Yes, actually the midichlorian thing doesn't bother me like it does some. As in life, some things being mysterious only add fun to the story.

The force was mysterious already before their introduction. In trying to explain it, George just made it dumber.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

It's because George Lucas is a sophomoric fraud who doesn't have the depth to understand what he's pretending to illustrate about human nature. My guess is that he originally wrote the story from a mentality of what seemed cool in futuristic sci fi and not from any philosophical tendencies. Then the movies took over pop culture for a few decades, and then somebody from the Joseph Campbell Foundation thought they'd grab that coattail and fawn about how Hero of a Thousand Faces inspired George Doofus. Then I have the misfortune of watching an interview with him basically saying, "Yeah, I meant to do that. That's the ticket. I'm totally, like, deep and philosophical and insightful and stuff."

He's lucky he thought up Princess Leia, if in fact he was the one who did. In the context of the whole story told in the first film, it looks like a teenage boy's idea of a great dramatic story, but then maybe his mom made her up and told him if he put her in the story, he'd get all kinds of chicks. Given all I've seen of George Lucas, I'd say this is quite plausible.

Actually, the recent death of Carrie Fisher had shed some light on that if I recall correctly. I read somewhere that she really added quite a bit to the character to keep her from falling flat. I think it had to do with finding her script where she actually changed the dialogue.

I know there's a lot of love and hate for Lucas. Yes, he's far from perfect, but I think what he did was groundbreaking. Sci Fi was much more cheesy before that. It was the '70's after all.

Personally, I'll never forget being 6 years old, feet hanging off the ground, when the lights went dark and the blockade runner screamed by, being chased by a star destroyer, rumbling my seat, blasters firing. I was hooked. Everything after that was Star Wars. Drapes, bed sheets, toys, etc. It ignited in me a sense of science and the potential it could achieve. It opened my eyes to all kinds of science fiction, both good and awful. [emoji2] Of course the nostalgia is all a part of it for me. If I were to meet Lucas, I wouldn't call him sophomoric, I would thank him for that.

 

[Sajara]

I believe the explanation as to why more people do not wield light sabers is twofold, one (as was mentioned already) the fact that the hilt is heavy and the blade has no mass, and two that it is hard to discern where the end of the blade is without the force. When twirling a heavy hilt/weightless blade around, most people tended to hurt themselves just as much as they hurt their opponent in the heat of battle.

As for the Force, the light side was more about not giving into emotions and being one with the Force. The dark side was more about giving into emotions and exerting control over the Force. Unless the Force was living, hard to say the dark side is evil per-se...

Jedi Code
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Sith Code
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I believe the explanation as to why more people do not wield light sabers is twofold, one (as was mentioned already) the fact that the hilt is heavy and the blade has no mass, and two that it is hard to discern where the end of the blade is without the force. When twirling a heavy hilt/weightless blade around, most people tended to hurt themselves just as much as they hurt their opponent in the heat of battle.

As for the Force, the light side was more about not giving into emotions and being one with the Force. The dark side was more about giving into emotions and exerting control over the Force. Unless the Force was living, hard to say the dark side is evil per-se...

Jedi Code
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Sith Code
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

If you put it like that the Sith are the good guys. Fuck people who don't have emotions.

 

[marc]

I want a crossover so that we can get a Vulcan Jedi

Emperor: "Give in to your hatred"

VJ: "I have none"

Emperor: "Turn to the Dark Side"

VJ: "That would be illogical"

 

[Angry Floof]

It's because George Lucas is a sophomoric fraud who doesn't have the depth to understand what he's pretending to illustrate about human nature. My guess is that he originally wrote the story from a mentality of what seemed cool in futuristic sci fi and not from any philosophical tendencies. Then the movies took over pop culture for a few decades, and then somebody from the Joseph Campbell Foundation thought they'd grab that coattail and fawn about how Hero of a Thousand Faces inspired George Doofus. Then I have the misfortune of watching an interview with him basically saying, "Yeah, I meant to do that. That's the ticket. I'm totally, like, deep and philosophical and insightful and stuff."

He's lucky he thought up Princess Leia, if in fact he was the one who did. In the context of the whole story told in the first film, it looks like a teenage boy's idea of a great dramatic story, but then maybe his mom made her up and told him if he put her in the story, he'd get all kinds of chicks. Given all I've seen of George Lucas, I'd say this is quite plausible.

Actually, the recent death of Carrie Fisher had shed some light on that if I recall correctly. I read somewhere that she really added quite a bit to the character to keep her from falling flat. I think it had to do with finding her script where she actually changed the dialogue.

I know there's a lot of love and hate for Lucas. Yes, he's far from perfect, but I think what he did was groundbreaking. Sci Fi was much more cheesy before that. It was the '70's after all.

Personally, I'll never forget being 6 years old, feet hanging off the ground, when the lights went dark and the blockade runner screamed by, being chased by a star destroyer, rumbling my seat, blasters firing. I was hooked. Everything after that was Star Wars. Drapes, bed sheets, toys, etc. It ignited in me a sense of science and the potential it could achieve. It opened my eyes to all kinds of science fiction, both good and awful. [emoji2] Of course the nostalgia is all a part of it for me. If I were to meet Lucas, I wouldn't call him sophomoric, I would thank him for that.

I didn't know there was a lot of love for hating George Lucas. I don't follow entertainment news or message boards. I don't pay attention to most of what I see in media about him. My hate for him is entirely my own. From where I'm sitting, it appears that George Lucas is loved without question. He was groundbreaking in presenting cool stuff in an action film, but in no other way. Something being wildly popular doesn't make it great in any way except popularity. What might be great about it beyond the coolness factor is lost on George Lucas. When he started claiming that connection to Joseph Campbell, someone whose work Lucas has either never read (he says he did) or didn't grasp beyond assuming the tired story was the meaningful part, was when I started to enjoy hating the fraudulent ass hat.

When I was 9 or 10, I saw the first preview for Star Wars and my jaw hit the ground. My weird religious parents wouldn't let us go to movies, but there was no way I was going to miss that movie. That trailer was the most exciting thing I'd seen on TV since Star Trek, which I missed because it was no longer being aired. Soon after, I was invited to a kids' birthday party that was to take place at the movie theater. We were supposed to watch some dumb kids' movie, but me and a couple of the boys in the group begged birthday girl's mom to let us watch Star Wars in the next theater, and she said yes. So me and a few boys watched Star Wars and my face was like this the whole time:

There's a great deal I love about Star Wars. I love that it has spread so deeply throughout our pop culture. Yesterday I posted a picture on facebook of a little girl in a purple "Darth Fairy" costume her mother made for her. A purple Darth Vader helmet and a fairy wand with a sparkly little death star on the end of it.

I have no issues with Star Wars or George Lucas until someone, particularly George Lucas, tries to pass off Star Wars as great for any reason other than flash and exciting explosions and of course that favorite fairy tale of all humanity, "we're the good guys and they are the bad guys and look how badass we are when we fight them." It's nothing more than that. There's nothing new or useful to learn from Star Wars.

Also, my hatred for George Lucas isn't really hatred. I mean what I'm saying about him, but the extra oomph of hatred is for my own entertainment. He's probably a nice guy with all kinds of wonderful qualities. I'm just not going to let him lie and pretend his creation is more meaningful than roller coaster rides or playing with matches.

Again, it's awesome entertainment, but it doesn't say anything new or interesting. Light sabers and Jedi knights are cool, but there's nothing more intriguing or intelligent than that. They parrot words that sound like deep enlightenment but the story and the actions of these so called enlightened people only reflect more sophomoric fantasy, which is awesome to watch but no more meaningful than any other us vs. them story. Same old story. All you have to do is tell the audience who's wearing the white hats and they won't question that, either. Not that they have to. It's entertainment after all. Just don't pretend there's anything beyond the same tired crap in Star Wars. It's delicious, not nutritious.

Maybe later movies show more maturity and relevance. I don't know because I stopped caring about new Star Wars releases a long time ago. I like that the latest one remembers females exist, at least.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi.

You may have missed the part when the Empire is in control between Star Wars III and Star Wars VI.

So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

Apparently immortality would be one thing.

 

[ronburgundy]

I've long thought that there really isn't any "dark side" of the Force. It is a force, after all. Does gravity have a dark side? No, and I think the real explanation is that people who are "seduced by the Dark Side" are really just giving in to their own darkness and using the Force in an evil way. The Dark Side is within them, not within the Force.

This makes the most sense to me. It's a metaphor for positive and negative aspects of human nature, not a separate force. It is how and for what the force is used.

When Luke asks Yoda what is in the "Dark side cave" on Dagoba, Yoda replies "Only what you take with you."
And, in Return of the Jedi, the Emperor says "Good. Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey to the Dark Side will be complete." [emphasis on "complete" ;]
So, despite never having been trained to use anything but the "Jedi" force, he would be on the Dark side merely by giving into hatred.

Also, Anakin was trained as a Jedi and became part of the Dark Side because he was overcome by negative emotions. It was a combo of Anakin's lust for more power and his fear about Padme dying fueled by his anger over the loss of his mother.

As for whether it is more powerful, I'd say a case could be made. The Sith managed to kill almost all the "plucky Jedi" at once and form a galactic empire that lasted decades. Had Vader not had that last minute change of heart, Luke would be dead, too.

Another good point. Although, to be consistent with what Yoda said about it being not more powerful but easier and seductive, one could view that lethal power as only a small part of the Force, which of course is easier on the Dark Side, because on the Dark Side you can kill anyone for any reason, and killing is more in tune with the rage and hatred that fuels the Dark Side.

Also, personal power over others is a more obvious type of "power" and that is clearly using it for the Dark Side.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, it's seemed to me that there's really only one Force, but the Jedi philosophy is built around the concept that power corrupts, so they need to maintain a great control over themselves and what they do because without them exercising this restraint, it's just so damn easy to use the Force to dominate and destroy.

That's why whenever someone talks about wanting to be able to do the Jedi Mind Trick, it almost inevitably ends up with their wanting to use it for the evil rapey and stealy reasons and not because they intend to become a UN diplomat and use their mind control powers to stop wars and other nice things. The Jedi council probably ran into that sort of thing thousands of years ago, which is why they set their organization up the way it is.

 

[Jayjay]

It's a fantasy world where good and evil are tangible concepts. I don't see the need to rationalize the force any more than that. it's bullshit like any other religion but for purposes of understanding the scripture I can go along with it.