The dark side side of the force

[abaddon]

It's a fantasy world where good and evil are tangible concepts. I don't see the need to rationalize the force any more than that. it's bullshit like any other religion but for purposes of understanding the scripture I can go along with it.

There's no "need" to analyze it, unless one wants to understand. There's no fantasy that isn't symbols. And all symbols describe aspects of the human mind. For people who are interested, getting into the symbols opens up a fascinating world to explore: the human imagination. Also there's an "ethos" here, a moral to the story. A fantasy about good and evil has something to say about what's healthy and what's harmful, about what right order for a society should be, and other... There's a philosophy behind every fantasy.

Same goes for religions. It too has an associative kind of logic and truth. But if you treat it as if it's a failure to accurately mirror a "scientific worldview" with no interest in the psychology of it then it must all seem completely pointless. Or if a fundy treats a fantasy as if it were scientific or historical facts, as if that's what it takes to be meaningful, that ultimately accomplishes the same thing: the significance is trivialized.

 

[credoconsolans]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

That doesn't bug me as much as the Middle Earth bunch. At least the Sith and Jedi are mortal. Temptations and bad decisions are normal for mortals.

Gandalf is of the order of Istari. Literally one step below the gods of Middle Earth. Put on earth to avert evil and defend against evil, but Gandalf gets his ass handed to him every time. He and the other wizards fall to the dark, get lost or are absent minded and don't do the job they were sent down for. When Gandalf wields magic best, it's to help escape or light lights. That's it. Otherwise for the most part, he has to fight just like a human and any magic he uses to fight evil looks to be a serious strain on him and he can't keep it up for long.

WTF? That's the best the gods can do?

 

[DolphinDynasty]

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

That doesn't bug me as much as the Middle Earth bunch. At least the Sith and Jedi are mortal. Temptations and bad decisions are normal for mortals.

Gandalf is of the order of Istari. Literally one step below the gods of Middle Earth. Put on earth to avert evil and defend against evil, but Gandalf gets his ass handed to him every time. He and the other wizards fall to the dark, get lost or are absent minded and don't do the job they were sent down for. When Gandalf wields magic best, it's to help escape or light lights. That's it. Otherwise for the most part, he has to fight just like a human and any magic he uses to fight evil looks to be a serious strain on him and he can't keep it up for long.

WTF? That's the best the gods can do?

Isn't that just a godly thing though, to be so "mysterious" and decidedly not so helpful when really needed? I know the uber religious see it as a bit of a deepity, or awesome power that only shows up on toast to show how awesome it is, and I think Tolkein was smart enough to notice that shit isn't gonna work if he wanted to allude to real-world leaders making wars, then trying to over-simplify them afterwards. Bit like how Gandalf once asked Frodo if Frodo could stomach killing Golem, which I think was more about how do you give a living being a permanent punishment for even a series of finite crimes, and is that reaally ok to frodo? Course Frodo did help Golem die in the end anyway, but Tolkein seemed to be better and eliciting tougher questions than Lucas ever could.

Plus, Tolkein made it a point to describe more of the knowledge base gained by the wizards considering their longer life spans rather than the occasional talking to animals and light shows, so I think he based them more on sages who studied and tested reality.

But meh, last time I read the whole series I was ten, so it's like we could expound on it for days and I'd be missing half the show.

 

[LordKiran]

That doesn't bug me as much as the Middle Earth bunch. At least the Sith and Jedi are mortal. Temptations and bad decisions are normal for mortals.

Gandalf is of the order of Istari. Literally one step below the gods of Middle Earth. Put on earth to avert evil and defend against evil, but Gandalf gets his ass handed to him every time. He and the other wizards fall to the dark, get lost or are absent minded and don't do the job they were sent down for. When Gandalf wields magic best, it's to help escape or light lights. That's it. Otherwise for the most part, he has to fight just like a human and any magic he uses to fight evil looks to be a serious strain on him and he can't keep it up for long.

WTF? That's the best the gods can do?

Isn't that just a godly thing though, to be so "mysterious" and decidedly not so helpful when really needed? I know the uber religious see it as a bit of a deepity, or awesome power that only shows up on toast to show how awesome it is, and I think Tolkein was smart enough to notice that shit isn't gonna work if he wanted to allude to real-world leaders making wars, then trying to over-simplify them afterwards. Bit like how Gandalf once asked Frodo if Frodo could stomach killing Golem, which I think was more about how do you give a living being a permanent punishment for even a series of finite crimes, and is that reaally ok to frodo? Course Frodo did help Golem die in the end anyway, but Tolkein seemed to be better and eliciting tougher questions than Lucas ever could.

Plus, Tolkein made it a point to describe more of the knowledge base gained by the wizards considering their longer life spans rather than the occasional talking to animals and light shows, so I think he based them more on sages who studied and tested reality.

But meh, last time I read the whole series I was ten, so it's like we could expound on it for days and I'd be missing half the show.

I actually quite like the intangible and abstract nature of magic in Tolkien's work. It almost harkons back to old world mysticism in a lot of ways and is less bombastic and show-offy.

 

[DolphinDynasty]

Isn't that just a godly thing though, to be so "mysterious" and decidedly not so helpful when really needed? I know the uber religious see it as a bit of a deepity, or awesome power that only shows up on toast to show how awesome it is, and I think Tolkein was smart enough to notice that shit isn't gonna work if he wanted to allude to real-world leaders making wars, then trying to over-simplify them afterwards. Bit like how Gandalf once asked Frodo if Frodo could stomach killing Golem, which I think was more about how do you give a living being a permanent punishment for even a series of finite crimes, and is that reaally ok to frodo? Course Frodo did help Golem die in the end anyway, but Tolkein seemed to be better and eliciting tougher questions than Lucas ever could.

Plus, Tolkein made it a point to describe more of the knowledge base gained by the wizards considering their longer life spans rather than the occasional talking to animals and light shows, so I think he based them more on sages who studied and tested reality.

But meh, last time I read the whole series I was ten, so it's like we could expound on it for days and I'd be missing half the show.

I actually quite like the intangible and abstract nature of magic in Tolkien's work. It almost harkons back to old world mysticism in a lot of ways and is less bombastic and show-offy.

Well, I was more word-y about it but, yeah, less showy and more mystical. Margaret Weiss and Terry Brooks wrote a whole series, Dragonlance, I think it started with, where it was more mystical and cloaked, less of a show-offy epic. They used ley lines to absorb power from earth rather than it being a gift people could squander or abuse, an I think most people could feel/see them, but only mages could study long enough to use it.

 

[Jayjay]

It's a fantasy world where good and evil are tangible concepts. I don't see the need to rationalize the force any more than that. it's bullshit like any other religion but for purposes of understanding the scripture I can go along with it.

There's no "need" to analyze it, unless one wants to understand. There's no fantasy that isn't symbols. And all symbols describe aspects of the human mind. For people who are interested, getting into the symbols opens up a fascinating world to explore: the human imagination. Also there's an "ethos" here, a moral to the story. A fantasy about good and evil has something to say about what's healthy and what's harmful, about what right order for a society should be, and other... There's a philosophy behind every fantasy.

Same goes for religions. It too has an associative kind of logic and truth. But if you treat it as if it's a failure to accurately mirror a "scientific worldview" with no interest in the psychology of it then it must all seem completely pointless. Or if a fundy treats a fantasy as if it were scientific or historical facts, as if that's what it takes to be meaningful, that ultimately accomplishes the same thing: the significance is trivialized.

This is basically what I meant also. Inside the story, the "light" and "dark" sides of the force are real things. But for the outside viewers they are symbols. So we kind of have to take them at face value. It makes little sense to hypothesize for example there there is no dark side and the division is just an invention of the Jedi council, because that has no support inside the story itself, but rather just reflects the interpreters own world view and not the symbolicism of the tale.

 

[Playball40]

Because I think the Dark Side is a metaphor for power and supposed glory, which is always going to attract weak minded people like a moth to the flame.

I thought of this recently.

Many people in the Star Wars universe are seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. Darth Vader tells us not to underestimate its power.

The problem is that it always loses in a fight against some plucky Jedi. So it's not as powerful as DV thinks it is. Why does anyone get seduced by it?

It's like someone saying they're going to ride a bicycle in a car race: bicycles are really fast, do not underestimate them. (Car zooms past). oh...

 

[Sajara]

I believe the explanation as to why more people do not wield light sabers is twofold, one (as was mentioned already) the fact that the hilt is heavy and the blade has no mass, and two that it is hard to discern where the end of the blade is without the force. When twirling a heavy hilt/weightless blade around, most people tended to hurt themselves just as much as they hurt their opponent in the heat of battle.

As for the Force, the light side was more about not giving into emotions and being one with the Force. The dark side was more about giving into emotions and exerting control over the Force. Unless the Force was living, hard to say the dark side is evil per-se...

Jedi Code
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.

Sith Code
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

If you put it like that the Sith are the good guys. Fuck people who don't have emotions.

This is why I always liked the Sith over the Jedi. Sure the Sith might have slaves and be evil, but at the end of the day they are a survival of the fittest species who give into their emotions. Much more interesting than the bland, emotionless do-gooder Jedi.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, Anakin was trained as a Jedi and became part of the Dark Side because he was overcome by negative emotions. It was a combo of Anakin's lust for more power and his fear about Padme dying fueled by his anger over the loss of his mother.

Arguably, it is Anakin's love for Padme why he fell to the Dark Side. Love was not allowed by the Jedi, at least not in the carnal sense.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This is why I always liked the Sith over the Jedi. Sure the Sith might have slaves and be evil, but at the end of the day they are a survival of the fittest species who give into their emotions. Much more interesting than the bland, emotionless do-gooder Jedi.

That btw has a Christian analogue. This is the message of Milton's Paradise Lost. The fact that the Devil always has held more attraction than God is something that has fascinated Christians since forever.

 

[credoconsolans]

If you put it like that the Sith are the good guys. Fuck people who don't have emotions.

This is why I always liked the Sith over the Jedi. Sure the Sith might have slaves and be evil, but at the end of the day they are a survival of the fittest species who give into their emotions. Much more interesting than the bland, emotionless do-gooder Jedi.

Denying yourself, being an expert at controlling your emotions and looking out only for the good of all tends to make someone pretty nondescript mostly because their lives are not about THEM. They've dedicated their lives to a higher calling. That bores most everyday people. I find it admirable because it's so stinking hard to do.

Giving in to your passions and feelings regardless is commonplace.

Also, Anakin was trained as a Jedi and became part of the Dark Side because he was overcome by negative emotions. It was a combo of Anakin's lust for more power and his fear about Padme dying fueled by his anger over the loss of his mother.

Arguably, it is Anakin's love for Padme why he fell to the Dark Side. Love was not allowed by the Jedi, at least not in the carnal sense.

Actually love was allowed. Sex was allowed. George Lucas said himself that the Jedi are not celibate.

POSSESSION was what was not allowed.

 

[credoconsolans]

That doesn't bug me as much as the Middle Earth bunch. At least the Sith and Jedi are mortal. Temptations and bad decisions are normal for mortals.

Gandalf is of the order of Istari. Literally one step below the gods of Middle Earth. Put on earth to avert evil and defend against evil, but Gandalf gets his ass handed to him every time. He and the other wizards fall to the dark, get lost or are absent minded and don't do the job they were sent down for. When Gandalf wields magic best, it's to help escape or light lights. That's it. Otherwise for the most part, he has to fight just like a human and any magic he uses to fight evil looks to be a serious strain on him and he can't keep it up for long.

WTF? That's the best the gods can do?

Isn't that just a godly thing though, to be so "mysterious" and decidedly not so helpful when really needed?

Yeah, but it's counterproductive when it interferes with the WHOLE REASON THE ISTARI EXIST.

I know the uber religious see it as a bit of a deepity, or awesome power that only shows up on toast to show how awesome it is, and I think Tolkein was smart enough to notice that shit isn't gonna work if he wanted to allude to real-world leaders making wars, then trying to over-simplify them afterwards. Bit like how Gandalf once asked Frodo if Frodo could stomach killing Golem, which I think was more about how do you give a living being a permanent punishment for even a series of finite crimes, and is that reaally ok to frodo? Course Frodo did help Golem die in the end anyway, but Tolkein seemed to be better and eliciting tougher questions than Lucas ever could.

Except I never thought that's why Frodo was so messed up at the end. IMO, he never gave Gollum a 2nd thought after he fell in the lava. He was messed up because of PTSD.

Plus, Tolkein made it a point to describe more of the knowledge base gained by the wizards considering their longer life spans rather than the occasional talking to animals and light shows, so I think he based them more on sages who studied and tested reality.

So make them sages and not these mythical superbeings whose magic only works every other Tuesday and on Leap year and just for a half hour before and after lunch. It was dumb. Like the eagles plothole.

 

[DrZoidberg]

This is why I always liked the Sith over the Jedi. Sure the Sith might have slaves and be evil, but at the end of the day they are a survival of the fittest species who give into their emotions. Much more interesting than the bland, emotionless do-gooder Jedi.

Denying yourself, being an expert at controlling your emotions and looking out only for the good of all tends to make someone pretty nondescript mostly because their lives are not about THEM. They've dedicated their lives to a higher calling. That bores most everyday people. I find it admirable because it's so stinking hard to do.

Giving in to your passions and feelings regardless is commonplace.

.

Sacricing yourself for others is passive aggressive Christian nonsense. The ideal should be to be a balanced person. To both have access to your passions as well as able to control yourself

 

[credoconsolans]

Denying yourself, being an expert at controlling your emotions and looking out only for the good of all tends to make someone pretty nondescript mostly because their lives are not about THEM. They've dedicated their lives to a higher calling. That bores most everyday people. I find it admirable because it's so stinking hard to do.

Giving in to your passions and feelings regardless is commonplace.

.

Sacricing yourself for others is passive aggressive Christian nonsense. The ideal should be to be a balanced person. To both have access to your passions as well as able to control yourself

The Jedi are more like pantheists. They're not aiming to be a balanced person. To be a balanced person should be the goal of every ordinary human being. But their goals are not the goals of ordinary people. They're not ordinary. They have devoted themselves to their Order and the goals of that Order. In the case of the GFFA? They've devoted their lives to the Republic and later. the restoration thereof.

And when wielding such power, it's important that the primary personal goal is to strictly control one's emotions.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Sacricing yourself for others is passive aggressive Christian nonsense. The ideal should be to be a balanced person. To both have access to your passions as well as able to control yourself

The Jedi are more like pantheists. They're not aiming to be a balanced person. To be a balanced person should be the goal of every ordinary human being. But their goals are not the goals of ordinary people. They're not ordinary. They have devoted themselves to their Order and the goals of that Order. In the case of the GFFA? They've devoted their lives to the Republic and later. the restoration thereof.

And when wielding such power, it's important that the primary personal goal is to strictly control one's emotions.

I'm pretty sure the Jedi are modelled on the medieval knights. Christian as fuck

 

[credoconsolans]

The Jedi are more like pantheists. They're not aiming to be a balanced person. To be a balanced person should be the goal of every ordinary human being. But their goals are not the goals of ordinary people. They're not ordinary. They have devoted themselves to their Order and the goals of that Order. In the case of the GFFA? They've devoted their lives to the Republic and later. the restoration thereof.

And when wielding such power, it's important that the primary personal goal is to strictly control one's emotions.

I'm pretty sure the Jedi are modelled on the medieval knights. Christian as fuck

Not even close. They're diplomats and peacekeepers. Not rich nobles on horses, keeping the peasants in their places.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'm pretty sure the Jedi are modelled on the medieval knights. Christian as fuck

Not even close. They're diplomats and peacekeepers. Not rich nobles on horses, keeping the peasants in their places.

I'm pretty sure that's the ideal of medieval knights, ie the chivalric knight. I think you've got your myths and reality mixed up. Reality = no

 

[credoconsolans]

Not even close. They're diplomats and peacekeepers. Not rich nobles on horses, keeping the peasants in their places.

I'm pretty sure that's the ideal of medieval knights, ie the chivalric knight. I think you've got your myths and reality mixed up. Reality = no

Actually the chivalric knight is what is a myth.

 

[Jayjay]

I'm pretty sure that's the ideal of medieval knights, ie the chivalric knight. I think you've got your myths and reality mixed up. Reality = no

Actually the chivalric knight is what is a myth.

Isn't that what he said?

 

[WAB]

I'm pretty sure that's the ideal of medieval knights, ie the chivalric knight. I think you've got your myths and reality mixed up. Reality = no

Actually the chivalric knight is what is a myth.

For probably 90%.

But there are truly chivalric, honorable, gallant men (and women) out there.

What I'm beginning to think is that, in today's hyper-sensitive society, confidence and strength of character, in and of itself, is often interpreted as offensive, even "creepy". (in men or women - gender, and/or sexual orientation, with respect to leverage and power, is becoming irrelevant - observe Milo what's-his-name).

We may be heading for an egalitarian nightmare of Orwellian proportions, if things continue the way they've been going. Makes me kind of happy to have recently found out that I have radically high blood pressure. Hopefully a nice, quick cardiac arrest can sweep me into oblivion.

 

[LordKiran]

I'm pretty sure the Jedi are modelled on the medieval knights. Christian as fuck

Not even close. They're diplomats and peacekeepers. Not rich nobles on horses, keeping the peasants in their places.

That's just George Lucas nonsense he came up with only after the Trilogy completed itself. The worst part is he couldn't even stick with it. Quigon Jin regularly lies, cheats, and steals his way to success even when it isn't necessary.

This is the same group of people that takes on the role of commanding the war with seemingly no opposition from anyone, including Palpatine the person in charge of the senate who's ultimate goal is the downfall of the jedi and republic. From this we can surmise that the Jedi's inherent role is one of warfare, defensive or otherwise and that they are a martial order just as much as (If not more so than) a diplomatic corp. Since when does being an order of 'peacekeepers' also mean that one of your implicit responsibilities is to lead the army?

See GL never really had any idea what a Jedi Knight actually was. He just haphazardly made shit up as he went and left us plebs to fill in the blanks for ourselves. So while it's rather speculative if Jedi Knights were modeled after actual knights (Far more likely they just harked to our common understanding of the romantic notion of knightly honor and chivalry) The idea that they're Eastern-like peacekeepers is just as dubious.