The Data On Legalizing Weed

[blastula]

And
Legalization has decreased black market sales

Retail sales increased by 70% while THC levels in wastewater increased by 9%.

Marijuana seizures at the southern border have fallen 80%

CBP can focus their efforts elsewhere.

Yeah, while prices per ounce have remained steady, quality has definitely increased.
The cost of my own consumption has gone down to a fraction of what it was in decades past, since I am free to grow it... I'll spring for seeds ($50-75) every few years, and consume maybe $50/yr in incremental fertilizer (mostly calcium&magnesium supplements) that I otherwise wouldn't buy (pot is a VERY resource-intensive plant!). And I end up giving away more finished product than I can ever use - doing my part to keep prices down!

There goes your shot at a job at the White House.

White House staffers asked to resign after revealing past marijuana use - CNNPolitics

 

[Keith&Co.]

Black market sales around here are up, actually. Not because of the prices so much as the daily limits on purchases.
And a lot of the unlicensed stuff is laced with some nasty additives they don't advertise, leading to overdoses of the additives.

 

[rousseau]

Nothing is harmless unto itself.
The toxicology maxim TDMTP (the dose makes the poison) applies universally.
The notion of "substance abuse" somehow implies the ingestion of drugs, but dropping a brick on your foot also qualifies.

Steve's paranoia about pot is irrational.

By definition pot is a toxic substance but your point about dose is important. I'd also add frequency into the mix.

A couple beers a month is completely harmless. A couple joints a month is also completely harmless. It's hard to imagine chronic, daily use of either not being a problem for at least some people, though.

I plan to teach my son about drugs, and won't discourage experimentation. But I'll definitely encourage moderation, if not abstinence.

 

[steve_bank]

It has to do with the normalization of drugs starting in the 60s.

When I saw the Dead in 71 it was a drug market. People walking around saying 'pot, acid'.

Before the cultural shift drugs and pot were seen as p[art of the minority poor and the arts. People knew what heroin was. The old Sinatra movie Man With The Golden Arm. Having a 'monkey on your back'.

As a teen in the 60s I was walking around late at night with a black kid from my school scoring heroin. We locked ourselves in his bathroom and I watched him cook and fix. His knees wobbled and his eyes rolled as it hit. There but for the grace of god go I as the saying goes. I was unsupervised as a teen. Brown skin arm and black tracks. In the 60s pot, acid, and prescription meds were circulating in my Catholic conservative high school, along with alcohol of course. Kids would take parents uppers and downers selling them to other kids.

Drugs became part of being cool.

The normalization of pot is one part of creating an addicted society. You can rationalize with things like 'everything has a risk'.

The full extent of the 60s shift is being seen today. It s unknown where it will all lead. In the 70s Playboy added a board game to an edition called Feds And Heads. It was cool to do drugs as a social statement.

Legalization came about because states saw they could make money. Along with that law enforcement saw enforcement was a waste of time, it was too pervasive and relatively harmless compared to other crime.

The idea initially was legalization would get rid of the black market and reduce crime. No need for illegal imports. The black market is as strong as ever.


The only possible path was legalization. Considering alcohol and tobacco as main stream products limiting pot was pointless.

Same view on prostitutions. Regardless of any issue it is too pervasive and too popular to criminalize. A waste of time. Having spent a few years in a nursing home and assisted living from what I see pot is jut another cost driver on long term health care.

We are paying a lot in high insurance premiums for chronic drug and alcohol abuse.

Is pot a gateway drug? Probably, but certainly not in all cases. There are people who can afford coke and mange to maintain a steady life. Functional addicts as with functional alcoholics. Functional pot heads.

 

[rousseau]

It has to do with the normalization of drugs starting in the 60s.

When I saw the Dead in 71 it was a drug market. People walking around saying 'pot, acid'.

Before the cultural shift drugs and pot were seen as p[art of the minority poor and the arts. People knew what heroin was. The old Sinatra movie Man With The Golden Arm. Having a 'monkey on your back'.

As a teen in the 60s I was walking around late at night with a black kid from my school scoring heroin. We locked ourselves in his bathroom and I watched him cook and fix. His knees wobbled and his eyes rolled as it hit. There but for the grace of god go I as the saying goes. I was unsupervised as a teen. Brown skin arm and black tracks. In the 60s pot, acid, and prescription meds were circulating in my Catholic conservative high school, along with alcohol of course. Kids would take parents uppers and downers selling them to other kids.

Drugs became part of being cool.

The normalization of pot is one part of creating an addicted society. You can rationalize with things like 'everything has a risk'.

The full extent of the 60s shift is being seen today. It s unknown where it will all lead. In the 70s Playboy added a board game to an edition called Feds And Heads. It was cool to do drugs as a social statement.

Legalization came about because states saw they could make money. Along with that law enforcement saw enforcement was a waste of time, it was too pervasive and relatively harmless compared to other crime.

The idea initially was legalization would get rid of the black market and reduce crime. No need for illegal imports. The black market is as strong as ever.


The only possible path was legalization. Considering alcohol and tobacco as main stream products limiting pot was pointless.

Same view on prostitutions. Regardless of any issue it is too pervasive and too popular to criminalize. A waste of time. Having spent a few years in a nursing home and assisted living from what I see pot is jut another cost driver on long term health care.

We are paying a lot in high insurance premiums for chronic drug and alcohol abuse.

Is pot a gateway drug? Probably, but certainly not in all cases. There are people who can afford coke and mange to maintain a steady life. Functional addicts as with functional alcoholics. Functional pot heads.

Booze culture has existed for thousands of years, so addiction is not a new thing. But what is very new in the past century is wealth and excess free time. With free time on our hands more of us are looking for a broader variety of ways to stimulate the mind. Drugs are also more easily manufactured and transported, so it's no surprise that their use has increased. So I don't know that it's normalization as such, but a product of secure and thriving economies.

Of all the drugs that need to be looked at pot seems the most harmless to me, even more so than alcohol. Is it a gateway drug at times? Probably, but those people would likely have looked for harder stuff anyway.

 

[steve_bank]

There is new PC term for drugs, ethno something or other. Drugs have always been part of cultures in human istory. No one knows what it was, Indi had soma and cannabis was used historicaly.

The term assassin supposed comes from the name of a cult that used hashish..

In the 60s and 70s people went to reservations to take peyote.

Different times and different cultures.

Conservatives made the slippery slope argument, and it is happening in Wa. First pot was decriminalized, no prosecution for individual users. Now it is hard drugs like heroin and crack. No real penalties for personal use, trafficking still a felony.

A some point all drugs will become legal. It is where things are going on the west coast. We have had people do crack on our door step. When somebody talked to the police they said it is a matter of policy talk to the mayor.

To me pot is just another indulgent crutch to avoid reality when what we need is clarity.

You can't defend suppressing pot when alcohol and tobacco are legal.

Back in the 70s when it looked like pot had a chance of being legal a tabaco company copyrighted some of the popular pot names like Acapulco Gold.

The way to go is to fully legalize it and then mass produce like cigarettes. That way the population can be fully sedated and made easier to control, a cynical conspiratorial view.Pot is part of the culture and has aspects of relgion and cults for some, intertweind with music.

Another manifestation is the flood of supplements that will cure what ails you and make you feel good without any effort. Acme red pills guaranteed to bring you up, money back guaranteed.

Our modern decadence.

If you want to make yourself a lab rat with drugs that is your choice, just take responsibility for consequences.



The question who carries responsibility for consequences. Today when you pay medical insurance premiums you are subsidizing recreational drug use inclusive of alcohol and tobacco.

 

[J842P]

And
Legalization has decreased black market sales

Retail sales increased by 70% while THC levels in wastewater increased by 9%.

Marijuana seizures at the southern border have fallen 80%

CBP can focus their efforts elsewhere.

Yeah, while prices per ounce have remained steady, quality has definitely increased.
The cost of my own consumption has gone down to a fraction of what it was in decades past, since I am free to grow it... I'll spring for seeds ($50-75) every few years, and consume maybe $50/yr in incremental fertilizer (mostly calcium&magnesium supplements) that I otherwise wouldn't buy (pot is a VERY resource-intensive plant!). And I end up giving away more finished product than I can ever use - doing my part to keep prices down!

There goes your shot at a job at the White House.

White House staffers asked to resign after revealing past marijuana use - CNNPolitics

Welp. I'm officially never voting for Biden.

 

[southernhybrid]

I think it's sort of funny to read so many comments demonizing drug usage, when food addiction is most likely a much bigger problem when it comes to healthcare. I'm not one to fat shame, as I see obesity as an illness, just like any other addiction. But, it's not pot users who are causing the uptick in healthcare. It's obesity. Obesity puts one at risk for hypertension, myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular disease, type II diabetes, certain types of cancer etc. Why are some of you making such extreme claims about a drug that isn't nearly as harmful as those that are already legal? Why are some of you making such an issue of cannabis, when sugar addiction and over eating are more likely causes of rising healthcare costs. Obesity is now known to be a major risk factor for complications and mortality of COVID. Yet, we have very little to offer people who suffer from obesity. Maybe we should put more effort into solving that public health problem.

Should we ban sugar? Should we force people to eat a certain way? Should we limit the caloric intake of those who suffer from obesity? Of course not! Humans have and always will participate in behaviors and habits that have risks, regardless if those habits involve using certain chemicals, over eating, driving recklessly, engaging in unprotected casual sex, etc. Of all the things that humans do, using cannabis is on the low end of the spectrum when it comes to doing harm. Keeping it illegal hurts people far more than making it legal. It's not a gate way drug. That's an insane belief, but of course,, there will always be people looking for a stronger drug, not because they are physically addicted to cannabis, but because for some reason, they feel the need to escape from the misery of their lives. When it comes to young people, most of us were risk takers when we were young. While I never used any drugs during my youth, I certainly did plenty of things that were risky. I just didn't realize it when I was young, as one rarely acquires wisdom during their youth.

I'm not saying cannabis is totally harmless. Not enough research has been done to know the long term effects of using. But just like tobacco usage, not everyone will be impacted the same way. I've known smokers who died of lung cancer by age 60 and I've known some who lived into their 90s. I think Willie Nelson and Bill Maher might have something to say about cannabis usage, since both have used it throughout their adulthoods and Willie is in his 80s, and Maher looks pretty healthy in his early 60s. Shit. I've visited a few home health patients decades ago, who forgot to put their roaches out of sight. It always made me smile to think that some of my older patients were enjoying a little buzz.

Let's be honest, cannabis is far less harmful than most chemical habits. There is no physiological addiction. It's just provides a pleasant, temporary escape from the harsh realities of life. And, just like ETOH, it should be avoided while at work or while driving etc. Some people come home after work and have a glass or two of beer or wine, while others come home and smoke a joint. Most people don't abuse either of those two substances.

Imo, all recreational drugs need to be decriminalized. When Portugal did that, there was no increase in usage. People will use drugs regardless of their legality. People will avoid using drugs regardless of their legality. It's cruel to punish someone for using something that might harm them.

 

[ronburgundy]

There goes your shot at a job at the White House.

White House staffers asked to resign after revealing past marijuana use - CNNPolitics

Welp. I'm officially never voting for Biden.

You might want to actually read the article before such a knee jerk reaction (granted CNN is partly to blame for such a misleading headline):

[P]"White House press secretary Jen Psaki tweeted on Friday that the White House "worked with the security service to update the policies to ensure that past marijuana use wouldn't automatically disqualify staff from serving in the White House. As a result, more people will serve who would not have in the past with the same level of recent drug use. The bottom line is this: of the hundreds of people hired, only five people who had started working at the White House are no longer employed as a result of this policy. While we will not get into individual cases, there were additional factors at play in many instances for the small number of individuals who were terminated."

In many of the cases involving staffers who are no longer employed, additional security factors were in play, including for some hard drug use, the official said. While marijuana use is legal in many states, it is still illegal on the federal level, which can present a hurdle in the federal security clearance process.[/P]

I can tell you from having been interviewed by the FBI for other people's security clearance is that the main concern is not drug use itself, but the frequency with which drug users, especially addicts and users of harder drugs, get into financial difficulties that make them vulnerable to bribes, or just breaking drug laws that make them vulnerable to blackmail.

In sum, no rational reaction to this story would alter one's vote for Biden either way.

 

[Treedbear]

...
I can tell you from having been interviewed by the FBI for other people's security clearance is that the main concern is not drug use itself, but the frequency with which drug users, especially addicts and users of harder drugs, get into financial difficulties that make them vulnerable to bribes, or just breaking drug laws that make them vulnerable to blackmail.
...

That fits with my view that pot is a gateway drug mainly due to the fact that up to recently it has been illegal, and therefore exposed the user to criminal influences. It drives a wedge between the child and their parents and local police (starting with cigarettes and beer), and later their former groups of friends (in high school). And it brings them into closer contact with criminal elements and the willingness to take risks such as with more addictive drugs. Eliminate the secrecy and negative influences and the tendency of some to over-indulge can be dealt with more honestly and rationally.

 

[bilby]

Overall he general normalization of drugs stared in the 60s has led to the addiction problems we have today, IMO.

Opioid addictions are now considered a crisis.

Walking around Seattle people are smocking pot in cars, you can see it and smell it as they drive buy.

Walking around the smell of pot is never far away. The term for a bum drinking wine out of a paper bag is wino. Now it is pot. Teens to adults hanging around on the steets, in parks, and parking lots smoking pot. We need a new tern like potos.

Instead of beer kids hang out smoking pot. I see it.

I know one person who developed lung disease from chronic pot smoking.

Despite what some argue pot is addictive. There are people who can not get by without it as with tobaccos smokers.

I do know people who say it is effective for chronic pain.

The recent medical reports I heard indicate long term use can lead to diminished mental functions.

You can ague we allow alcohol and tobacco, why not pot and it is a valid argument.

I do not think pot is harmless.

 

[ZiprHead]

Overall he general normalization of drugs stared in the 60s has led to the addiction problems we have today, IMO.

Opioid addictions are now considered a crisis.

Walking around Seattle people are smocking pot in cars, you can see it and smell it as they drive buy.

Walking around the smell of pot is never far away. The term for a bum drinking wine out of a paper bag is wino. Now it is pot. Teens to adults hanging around on the steets, in parks, and parking lots smoking pot. We need a new tern like potos.

Instead of beer kids hang out smoking pot. I see it.

I know one person who developed lung disease from chronic pot smoking.

Despite what some argue pot is addictive. There are people who can not get by without it as with tobaccos smokers.

I do know people who say it is effective for chronic pain.

The recent medical reports I heard indicate long term use can lead to diminished mental functions.

You can ague we allow alcohol and tobacco, why not pot and it is a valid argument.

I do not think pot is harmless.

View attachment 32416

Do you think he has an onion on his belt?

 

[Elixir]

Instead of beer kids hang out smoking pot. I see it.

That's an excellent trade-off.

I know one person who developed lung disease from chronic pot smoking.

I knew 8 kids who died in two separate accidents after/while drinking beer.
Please check the national stats. Alcohol is MANY times deadlier, easier to get and more of a "gateway" drug. Plus it's addictive.

 

[repoman]

I think it's sort of funny to read so many comments demonizing drug usage, when food addiction is most likely a much bigger problem when it comes to healthcare. I'm not one to fat shame, as I see obesity as an illness, just like any other addiction. But, it's not pot users who are causing the uptick in healthcare. It's obesity. Obesity puts one at risk for hypertension, myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular disease, type II diabetes, certain types of cancer etc. Why are some of you making such extreme claims about a drug that isn't nearly as harmful as those that are already legal? Why are some of you making such an issue of cannabis, when sugar addiction and over eating are more likely causes of rising healthcare costs. Obesity is now known to be a major risk factor for complications and mortality of COVID. Yet, we have very little to offer people who suffer from obesity. Maybe we should put more effort into solving that public health problem.

Should we ban sugar? Should we force people to eat a certain way? Should we limit the caloric intake of those who suffer from obesity? Of course not! Humans have and always will participate in behaviors and habits that have risks, regardless if those habits involve using certain chemicals, over eating, driving recklessly, engaging in unprotected casual sex, etc. Of all the things that humans do, using cannabis is on the low end of the spectrum when it comes to doing harm. Keeping it illegal hurts people far more than making it legal. It's not a gate way drug. That's an insane belief, but of course,, there will always be people looking for a stronger drug, not because they are physically addicted to cannabis, but because for some reason, they feel the need to escape from the misery of their lives. When it comes to young people, most of us were risk takers when we were young. While I never used any drugs during my youth, I certainly did plenty of things that were risky. I just didn't realize it when I was young, as one rarely acquires wisdom during their youth.

I'm not saying cannabis is totally harmless. Not enough research has been done to know the long term effects of using. But just like tobacco usage, not everyone will be impacted the same way. I've known smokers who died of lung cancer by age 60 and I've known some who lived into their 90s. I think Willie Nelson and Bill Maher might have something to say about cannabis usage, since both have used it throughout their adulthoods and Willie is in his 80s, and Maher looks pretty healthy in his early 60s. Shit. I've visited a few home health patients decades ago, who forgot to put their roaches out of sight. It always made me smile to think that some of my older patients were enjoying a little buzz.

Let's be honest, cannabis is far less harmful than most chemical habits. There is no physiological addiction. It's just provides a pleasant, temporary escape from the harsh realities of life. And, just like ETOH, it should be avoided while at work or while driving etc. Some people come home after work and have a glass or two of beer or wine, while others come home and smoke a joint. Most people don't abuse either of those two substances.

Imo, all recreational drugs need to be decriminalized. When Portugal did that, there was no increase in usage. People will use drugs regardless of their legality. People will avoid using drugs regardless of their legality. It's cruel to punish someone for using something that might harm them.

The carbed up foods and constant insulin response to the point of failure and the further complications down the line cause the obesity and the "obesity related" diseases.

 

[southernhybrid]

I didn't mean to make this thread about the causes and risks of obesity. I just wanted to say that there are many other things that we humans do that harm us much worse than using cannabis.

But, we can certainly discuss obesity in detail in a non political thread. It's a problem that I've studied for years, despite being thin while still enjoying plenty of sweets. I have two sisters who have suffered from obesity, as well as many friends and former patients. So, it is a subject of interest for me, especially since obesity was very rare during my youth in the 50s and 60s.

It would be an interesting discussion because scientists and physicians disagree on the problem and solution. Unfortunately, many medical professionals are very judgmental in regards to their patients who suffer with obesity, despite the fact that it is now considered a disease with it's own ICD-10 medical code. The only thing I fear is that such a discussion could get nasty.

Sorry for the derail. Now back to cannabis! Cannabis can make you gain weight if you get the munchies.

 

[rousseau]

Of course there are many things more harmful than Cannabis, but it is fair to try to characterize pot in isolation.

For the most part, I agree that it's harmless for most people, and on average less harmful than alcohol. Although I do believe the idea that it is entirely safe is pernicious, and likely does cause people problems. I think a lot of pot smokers get the impression that they're unaffected by pot - no affect on cognition, motivation, or overall health. When in many cases they probably are affected in a subtle way.

When I was in university I did plenty of drugs, and I didn't really see any type of positive effect on those who were chronic smokers. Most of my acquaintances from the time who are now leading successful, productive lives, largely left drugs behind and are living mostly abstinent lives. I can't think of many who never left drug culture who are stable or secure, financially or mentally.

But again, dose and frequency is important. Sparing pot use probably has little to no effect on our health, where chronic, heavy use is no more normal than if you were drinking 2 or 3 beers a day. But I think once people get out of university there doesn't tend to be much in between - we're either largely abstinent, or drug abusers. The people smoking 1-2 joints a month are likely fairly rare.

I have no problem at all with legalization and am happy it happened in Canada, but I'm under no illusion that setting a plant on fire and inhaling it into your lungs isn't unhealthy. And I think that's the problem with pot: among pot smokers they believe it's use is neutral, when it's very likely not. And more research and awareness needs to be made public on the problems pot can actually cause, rather than everyone just saying it's safe all the time.