The dead "children" of Gaza

[laughing dog]

What I see is that you simply want something to support the Palestinians regardless of the facts.

Remember, it was the Palestinians that tried to destroy the Jews, not the other way around.

The Nazis tried to destroy the Jews. Whatever one thinks of "the Palestinians", they have not even come close to trying to destroy "the Jews" of Israel, let alone the world (remember, more than half of the Jewish population do not live in Israel).

 

[untermensche]

Of course the strength is relevant.

You are in effect saying that weakness makes right. I suppose cold viruses are superior to humans.

That is why it is Israel oppressing the Palestinians and the Palestinians representing a miniscule threat to Israel.

You cannot have one side oppressing another unless one side is much stronger.

And oppression is the crime, not the response, which is permitted, even the targeting of civilians.

The oppressor puts those civilians at risk. They are responsible for their deaths.

What I see is that you simply want something to support the Palestinians regardless of the facts.

Remember, it was the Palestinians that tried to destroy the Jews, not the other way around.

It is the Israeli's that are oppressing the Palestinians. The Palestinians are not oppressing Israel, and they pose no real threat to Israel.

Israel is the aggressor here, with it's oppression.

And by committing this oppression Israel makes every one of it's citizens a valid target.

That is the cost of oppression and theft. It has a cost even of Israel doesn't want to pay one.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren's "facts" seem to ALL SUPPORT THE CONTINUED USE OF AMERICAN MADE WEAPONS ON PALESTINIANS...NO MATTER WHAT. He still has to offer one idea that would de-escalate the conflict. All he does is repeat his unsupported justifications for the continuance of the slaughter. He even went so far as to suggest that the U.N. workers may have been working for Hamas! The next thing we will hear from him, the rockets came from the U.N.

I see the problem now--you're one of these people who doesn't care about evil, only about doing evil.

I care more about reducing the amount of evil than about who is committing the evil.

He flatly denies there is any chance of peace....then denies that it is thinking like his that creates and maintains the condition. In other words, his answer is to press on till it becomes genocide. If you follow his advice, that is where this is headed. Obama's knee jerk and cowardly loyalty to Israel mirrors the relationship Reagan had with the apartheid government in South Africa. How much more terrible must things get before we see the light on this issue? The U.S. needs to at least threaten to withdraw support from Israel and condition its return on making peace with the Palestinian people...including Hamas.

I deny there is a chance of peace because I understand that peace requires both sides to want peace. The Islamists have made it very clear they don't want peace. And Obama is hardly loyal to Israel.

And we certainly will see more terrible things. Just look at Iraq--the actions of ISIS. That's just another head on the same hydra.

Just because you think good enough diplomacy can bring peace doesn't make it true.

Boycott, divestment and sanctions seems a more likely consequence of Israel's continued actions. Eventually, Israel will collapse and when it does,we will end up with a ONE STATE SOLUTION....ONE SECULAR STATE.

The "success" you dream of is an Islamist state, not a secular one. The people would fare no better after "victory", they never do. Islamist states are hellholes.

The idea of a Jewish state will have to go out the window when we start to clean up this mess. Netanyahu is putting his country in a grave place and as the Pete Seeger song goes..."The big fool says to push on."

As always, it's about hurting Jews, not about people.

It is long past the time when we can continue to make excuses for Netanyahu's racism. He is on the way to an "Arab solution" not unlike the "Jewish solution" tried in Germany in the last century.

The Palestinian population is growing, not shrinking.

- - - Updated - - -

What I see is that you simply want something to support the Palestinians regardless of the facts.

Remember, it was the Palestinians that tried to destroy the Jews, not the other way around.

The Nazis tried to destroy the Jews. Whatever one thinks of "the Palestinians", they have not even come close to trying to destroy "the Jews" of Israel, let alone the world (remember, more than half of the Jewish population do not live in Israel).

Their avowed intention is the same.

- - - Updated - - -

It is the Israeli's that are oppressing the Palestinians. The Palestinians are not oppressing Israel, and they pose no real threat to Israel.

Israel is the aggressor here, with it's oppression.

And by committing this oppression Israel makes every one of it's citizens a valid target.

That is the cost of oppression and theft. It has a cost even of Israel doesn't want to pay one.

So the continual attacks don't matter?

They're just supposed to sit back and let them happen?

Lets conduct random drive-by shootings at your house. Somebody might get hurt if you resist, you're not allowed to do anything about it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So the continual attacks don't matter?

They're just supposed to sit back and let them happen?

Lets conduct random drive-by shootings at your house. Somebody might get hurt if you resist, you're not allowed to do anything about it.

When they were blowing themselves up in Israel, Israelis were actually dying, and the victims of a metaphorical drive-by. The rockets being launched into Israel are not the same level of a threat as the suicide bombings were. The number of Israeli Civilian deaths from Hamas attacks in this conflict is less than 5.

 

[untermensche]

So the continual attacks don't matter?

They're just supposed to sit back and let them happen?

Lets conduct random drive-by shootings at your house. Somebody might get hurt if you resist, you're not allowed to do anything about it.

What matters is the cause of the attacks. Decades of oppression and theft.

Israel only has the right to kill if it has no other choice.

Israel has another choice. It could end the oppression and theft.

 

[laughing dog]

Their avowed intention is the same.

That is untrue. It may be one interpretation of the goals of Hamas, but is certainly untrue for "the Palestinians". You really need to get your facts straight.

 

[arkirk]

Their avowed intention is the same.

That is untrue. It may be one interpretation of the goals of Hamas, but is certainly untrue for "the Palestinians". You really need to get your facts straight.

Here in so many posts, Loren gives us Catch 22. The Palestinians are evil and we are ignoring that. To hear him tell it, the only answer is complete genocide, though he never utters this...instead just points down the path to genocide. Branding people evil is the method of George W. Bush and we know what that gets us...a black eye.

There never is any letup in Loren's tirade against evil and there are no real facts on the ground to support his position...just the same kind of sound bites and talking points we have been able to access through Fox for years. No hope...just the forces of good against those of evil...just like Iraq! Yessir! We never get an assessment of the possibilities for peace in the area from him except..."It is impossible to make peace with those evil people. Don't worry; their deaths don't amount to a fucking thing. The babies are baby evils anyway."

I would ignore his posting of this type of characterization if it weren't all the time and without pause...and always so cynical and disparaging. Coping with this level of negativity in this forum is not fun and frankly I do not know if it has any real significance anyway. I challenge Loren to make a proposal for peaceful settlement of Palestine and he just says..."Nope! There is a matter of an EVIL we must always oppose and crush out of existence." In his case, "evil" is coded language for Palestinian. His rhetoric does not ever allow for honest consideration of peaceful solutions. It offers nothing to give any young Palestinian any hope of a tolerable future. That is why I have questioned whether or not he is a gun salesman. Even the most hawkish among us eventually wants conflicts to come to an end, but we never get one inch of concession from Loren that some of this violence might not be necessary.

Loren has also pointed out that the Palestinian population is growing. That should be impetus for seeking a peaceful solution and allowing these people the kind of education they need to actually control their lives in a meaningful way. More evil=more need for weapons=more military industrial profits. Is that it? I still have not heard anything from Loren but "evil."

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So the continual attacks don't matter?

They're just supposed to sit back and let them happen?

Lets conduct random drive-by shootings at your house. Somebody might get hurt if you resist, you're not allowed to do anything about it.

When they were blowing themselves up in Israel, Israelis were actually dying, and the victims of a metaphorical drive-by. The rockets being launched into Israel are not the same level of a threat as the suicide bombings were. The number of Israeli Civilian deaths from Hamas attacks in this conflict is less than 5.

Ok, we will use .22s rather than .45s for the drive-bys.

- - - Updated - - -

Their avowed intention is the same.

That is untrue. It may be one interpretation of the goals of Hamas, but is certainly untrue for "the Palestinians". You really need to get your facts straight.

Yeah, the average Palestinian would be content with simply ethnic cleansing rather than genocide.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren has also pointed out that the Palestinian population is growing. That should be impetus for seeking a peaceful solution and allowing these people the kind of education they need to actually control their lives in a meaningful way. More evil=more need for weapons=more military industrial profits. Is that it? I still have not heard anything from Loren but "evil."

You continue to labor under the delusion that peace is possible.

The reality is that peace only happens when both sides want it--and the Palestinians have made it very clear they don't want peace. (A peace treaty is another matter--if they can get one that doesn't give up too much they would go for it--but then promptly throw it in the trash.)

 

[Bronzeage]

Loren has also pointed out that the Palestinian population is growing. That should be impetus for seeking a peaceful solution and allowing these people the kind of education they need to actually control their lives in a meaningful way. More evil=more need for weapons=more military industrial profits. Is that it? I still have not heard anything from Loren but "evil."

You continue to labor under the delusion that peace is possible.

The reality is that peace only happens when both sides want it--and the Palestinians have made it very clear they don't want peace. (A peace treaty is another matter--if they can get one that doesn't give up too much they would go for it--but then promptly throw it in the trash.)

It makes it much easier to continue fighting when one believes it is the only choice. One no longer needs to justify their actions and is free to go to any extreme.

It helps to believe ones enemy is a demented race which is incapable of ordinary human logic and enjoys watching their children suffer.

There is one dictum of human conflict which has never been violated; People continue to fight a losing battle when they believe they have nothing to lose. As long as the Palestinians believe their lives will never improve, they will continue to fight. As long as Israel believes they can keep the Palestinians under their control, the fight will never end.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You continue to labor under the delusion that peace is possible.

The reality is that peace only happens when both sides want it--and the Palestinians have made it very clear they don't want peace. (A peace treaty is another matter--if they can get one that doesn't give up too much they would go for it--but then promptly throw it in the trash.)

It makes it much easier to continue fighting when one believes it is the only choice. One no longer needs to justify their actions and is free to go to any extreme.

Not a rebuttal.

It helps to believe ones enemy is a demented race which is incapable of ordinary human logic and enjoys watching their children suffer.

They're not. The problem is the Islamists in charge.

There is one dictum of human conflict which has never been violated; People continue to fight a losing battle when they believe they have nothing to lose. As long as the Palestinians believe their lives will never improve, they will continue to fight. As long as Israel believes they can keep the Palestinians under their control, the fight will never end.

No. People continue to fight a losing battle so long as they have a strategy they think can lead to a favorable end of the conflict.

Furthermore, the Islamists do not see that they are on the losing end here. Sure, they get their asses whipped in every stand-up fight, they see it as a matter of running to the world press for protection while slowly wearing Israel down.

 

[laughing dog]

Yeah, the average Palestinian would be content with simply ethnic cleansing rather than genocide.

This reflects much more on your bias than it does on the "average Palestinian".

 

[Bronzeage]

It makes it much easier to continue fighting when one believes it is the only choice. One no longer needs to justify their actions and is free to go to any extreme.

Not a rebuttal.

It helps to believe ones enemy is a demented race which is incapable of ordinary human logic and enjoys watching their children suffer.

They're not. The problem is the Islamists in charge.

There is one dictum of human conflict which has never been violated; People continue to fight a losing battle when they believe they have nothing to lose. As long as the Palestinians believe their lives will never improve, they will continue to fight. As long as Israel believes they can keep the Palestinians under their control, the fight will never end.

No. People continue to fight a losing battle so long as they have a strategy they think can lead to a favorable end of the conflict.

Furthermore, the Islamists do not see that they are on the losing end here. Sure, they get their asses whipped in every stand-up fight, they see it as a matter of running to the world press for protection while slowly wearing Israel down.

You have predicated this discussion on the premise that peace is impossible because the Palestinians will not stop fighting and use this to justify any and all actions by Israel, as if a fight consists of the actions of only one side. This is simply not realistic and most people recognise this, if only in the abstract.

By stating, "...the Palestinians have made it very clear they don't want peace," you put full responsibility on the Palestinians for an international conflict and deny Israel's part in creating and maintaining the conditions which led us to this current crisis.

You are arguing from a position of absurdity.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not a rebuttal.

It helps to believe ones enemy is a demented race which is incapable of ordinary human logic and enjoys watching their children suffer.

They're not. The problem is the Islamists in charge.

There is one dictum of human conflict which has never been violated; People continue to fight a losing battle when they believe they have nothing to lose. As long as the Palestinians believe their lives will never improve, they will continue to fight. As long as Israel believes they can keep the Palestinians under their control, the fight will never end.

No. People continue to fight a losing battle so long as they have a strategy they think can lead to a favorable end of the conflict.

Furthermore, the Islamists do not see that they are on the losing end here. Sure, they get their asses whipped in every stand-up fight, they see it as a matter of running to the world press for protection while slowly wearing Israel down.

You have predicated this discussion on the premise that peace is impossible because the Palestinians will not stop fighting and use this to justify any and all actions by Israel, as if a fight consists of the actions of only one side. This is simply not realistic and most people recognise this, if only in the abstract.

By stating, "...the Palestinians have made it very clear they don't want peace," you put full responsibility on the Palestinians for an international conflict and deny Israel's part in creating and maintaining the conditions which led us to this current crisis.

You are arguing from a position of absurdity.

Israel's primary role in creating the current crisis is it's existence. That's intolerable to the Islamists. Everything else is just crap to delude western ears.

 

[Arctish]

Israel's primary role in creating the current crisis is it's existence. That's intolerable to the Islamists. Everything else is just crap to delude western ears.

Israel's primary role in creating the current crisis is it's ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing in order to create a Jewish State with an unassailable Jewish majority in all of Eretz Yisrael. Also, the ongoing theft of every asset the Palestinians possess fuels the conflict.

This should come as no surprise to anyone with enough wits to read a book. History is full of similar incidents where a powerful tribe, clan, or nation forcibly evicted a weaker one and took all their valuables, while the weaker one did what damage it could in it's attempts to resist. The fatuous self-justifications coming from the stronger side are usually the same, too: "God says it's wrong to covet our neighbor's farmland, water, and wealth, but in this case He's making an exception because we're His favorites and He hates those other guys. Also, we're the Good Guys, and those people (if you can call them that) are Evil."

 

[Bronzeage]

Not a rebuttal.

It helps to believe ones enemy is a demented race which is incapable of ordinary human logic and enjoys watching their children suffer.

They're not. The problem is the Islamists in charge.

There is one dictum of human conflict which has never been violated; People continue to fight a losing battle when they believe they have nothing to lose. As long as the Palestinians believe their lives will never improve, they will continue to fight. As long as Israel believes they can keep the Palestinians under their control, the fight will never end.

No. People continue to fight a losing battle so long as they have a strategy they think can lead to a favorable end of the conflict.

Furthermore, the Islamists do not see that they are on the losing end here. Sure, they get their asses whipped in every stand-up fight, they see it as a matter of running to the world press for protection while slowly wearing Israel down.

You have predicated this discussion on the premise that peace is impossible because the Palestinians will not stop fighting and use this to justify any and all actions by Israel, as if a fight consists of the actions of only one side. This is simply not realistic and most people recognise this, if only in the abstract.

By stating, "...the Palestinians have made it very clear they don't want peace," you put full responsibility on the Palestinians for an international conflict and deny Israel's part in creating and maintaining the conditions which led us to this current crisis.

You are arguing from a position of absurdity.

Israel's primary role in creating the current crisis is it's existence. That's intolerable to the Islamists. Everything else is just crap to delude western ears.

This is plausible only if the creation of Israel did not involve depriving anyone of their natural human rights, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, etc. Is this your contention?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

When they were blowing themselves up in Israel, Israelis were actually dying, and the victims of a metaphorical drive-by. The rockets being launched into Israel are not the same level of a threat as the suicide bombings were. The number of Israeli Civilian deaths from Hamas attacks in this conflict is less than 5.

Ok, we will use .22s rather than .45s for the drive-bys.

What is Missing the Point, Alex?

The Israelis were being slaughtered in suicide bombings. Almost no Israeli civilian casualties have occurred due to the rocket attacks. You can try to compare the rocket attacks with a drive-by but the comparison is utterly ridiculous as drive-bys occur adjacent to the target, not from tens to a hundred miles away.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Israel's primary role in creating the current crisis is it's existence. That's intolerable to the Islamists. Everything else is just crap to delude western ears.

Israel's primary role in creating the current crisis is it's ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing in order to create a Jewish State with an unassailable Jewish majority in all of Eretz Yisrael. Also, the ongoing theft of every asset the Palestinians possess fuels the conflict.

The anger was there before Israel did *ANYTHING*.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ok, we will use .22s rather than .45s for the drive-bys.

What is Missing the Point, Alex?

The Israelis were being slaughtered in suicide bombings. Almost no Israeli civilian casualties have occurred due to the rocket attacks. You can try to compare the rocket attacks with a drive-by but the comparison is utterly ridiculous as drive-bys occur adjacent to the target, not from tens to a hundred miles away.

Fewer die from the rockets than the suicide bombings. That doesn't change the basic argument that stopping the attacks is unacceptable because someone might get hurt.

Thus I downgraded the threat in my scenario.

 

[Jayjay]

Israel's primary role in creating the current crisis is it's ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing in order to create a Jewish State with an unassailable Jewish majority in all of Eretz Yisrael. Also, the ongoing theft of every asset the Palestinians possess fuels the conflict.

The anger was there before Israel did *ANYTHING*.

The campaign of ethnic cleansing was there also before Israel existed.