• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The Democratic Party (and media) are going after Bernie

It is no surprise that the Democratic Party insiders are antagonistic towards a non-democrat.

And if Bernie or his supporters cannot handle an antagonistic Democratic party, how will they handle the GOP if he gets the nomination?

We can handle it just fine, friendo. Thanks for your useless and spineless input as usual.
How can you think the Dems antagonism harmed Sanders' chance at the Democrat nomination, but the wildly hyperbolic antagonism that'll make Swift Boat Vets look like a hand job from the Republicans won't harm Sander's chance at the White House?

Because Bernie is stronger than Kerry and will not distance himself from anything the opposition brings up. You often express as conventional wisdom that Bernie wouldn't win against Trump, but he's preferred to him in nearly every poll, moreso than Warren and at least as much as Biden, especially among independents.
 
How can you think the Dems antagonism harmed Sanders' chance at the Democrat nomination, but the wildly hyperbolic antagonism that'll make Swift Boat Vets look like a hand job from the Republicans won't harm Sander's chance at the White House?

Because Bernie is stronger than Kerry and will not distance himself from anything the opposition brings up. You often express as conventional wisdom that Bernie wouldn't win against Trump, but he's preferred to him in nearly every poll, moreso than Warren and at least as much as Biden, especially among independents.
The polls today don't matter. W was polling poorly and beat the Vietnam traitor Kerry. Heck, Obama wasn't polling too well and he beat Romney, comfortably. Of course, Obama didn't need the Karl Rove tricks to beat Kerry. America will turn on Sanders, because they aren't that good with context... especially after the GOP slander the fuck out of him.
 
How can you think the Dems antagonism harmed Sanders' chance at the Democrat nomination, but the wildly hyperbolic antagonism that'll make Swift Boat Vets look like a hand job from the Republicans won't harm Sander's chance at the White House?

Because Bernie is stronger than Kerry and will not distance himself from anything the opposition brings up. You often express as conventional wisdom that Bernie wouldn't win against Trump, but he's preferred to him in nearly every poll, moreso than Warren and at least as much as Biden, especially among independents.
The polls today don't matter. W was polling poorly and beat the Vietnam traitor Kerry. Heck, Obama wasn't polling too well and he beat Romney, comfortably. Of course, Obama didn't need the Karl Rove tricks to beat Kerry. America will turn on Sanders, because they aren't that good with context... especially after the GOP slander the fuck out of him.

That's your opinion, and it doesn't take into account Bernie's overall popularity and the strength of his grassroots movement, the latter of which makes him far more similar to Obama than Kerry. If you want another Kerry (or Gore, or Clinton or...), nominate Biden and see how well your safe bet plays out.
 
The polls today don't matter. W was polling poorly and beat the Vietnam traitor Kerry. Heck, Obama wasn't polling too well and he beat Romney, comfortably. Of course, Obama didn't need the Karl Rove tricks to beat Kerry. America will turn on Sanders, because they aren't that good with context... especially after the GOP slander the fuck out of him.
That's your opinion, and it doesn't take into account Bernie's overall popularity and the strength of his grassroots movement, the latter of which makes him far more similar to Obama than Kerry. If you want another Kerry (or Gore, or Clinton or...), nominate Biden and see how well your safe bet plays out.
Yes... Sanders, the guy who couldn't get enough liberal support in the Democrat Party to win the nomination... is somehow going to splinter the conservative and independent vote? His national net favorability is rarely in the black.

Sanders just got his first national poll lead though... so there is that. Hard to tell where the increase comes from, but it seems like it siphoned from people that dropped out.
 
The polls today don't matter. W was polling poorly and beat the Vietnam traitor Kerry. Heck, Obama wasn't polling too well and he beat Romney, comfortably. Of course, Obama didn't need the Karl Rove tricks to beat Kerry. America will turn on Sanders, because they aren't that good with context... especially after the GOP slander the fuck out of him.
That's your opinion, and it doesn't take into account Bernie's overall popularity and the strength of his grassroots movement, the latter of which makes him far more similar to Obama than Kerry. If you want another Kerry (or Gore, or Clinton or...), nominate Biden and see how well your safe bet plays out.
Yes... Sanders, the guy who couldn't get enough liberal support in the Democrat Party to win the nomination... is somehow going to splinter the conservative and independent vote? His national net favorability is rarely in the black.

Sanders just got his first national poll lead though... so there is that. Hard to tell where the increase comes from, but it seems like it siphoned from people that dropped out.

The little arrows next to candidates names say who went up and who went down compared to the last poll, dude. Let's see about those independents, though. From the Morning Consult:

Sanders outperforms the former vice president against Trump among voters ages 18-29, those who are not at all interested in politics and self-described independents — just as he does in primary election polling against Biden.

The survey also found Sanders outpacing Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), billionaire Michael Bloomberg and Pete Buttigieg with those groups. But looking toward the general election, Buttigieg seems like a safer choice than Sanders with voters older than 65 and whites with a college degree.

The poll found people who voted for Trump in 2016 were only 2 points more likely to say they’d vote for Biden over Trump than Sanders, while Sanders has an advantage with independents.

Some good graphics at that link, but the files are huge so I won't spam the thread with them.
 
Also, if it's damning to Sanders that in his first presidential run, when he didn't want to do it (he asked Warren first, and only stepped in when she declined) and nobody knew him from a hole in the ground, he wasn't able to beat the most well-known Democrat in the country, why isn't it similarly damning that Biden has tried several times to become President and been trounced, sorely, each time? Why isn't it damning to Warren that she was a fucking Republican during the Reagan years until only recently? Or that Mayor Pete has received a total of about 8 thousand votes in his entire political career?
 
Also, if it's damning to Sanders that in his first presidential run, when he didn't want to do it (he asked Warren first, and only stepped in when she declined) and nobody knew him from a hole in the ground, he wasn't able to beat the most well-known Democrat in the country, why isn't it similarly damning that Biden has tried several times to become President and been trounced, sorely, each time?
Who's parading Biden's previous attempts as golden?
Why isn't it damning to Warren that she was a fucking Republican during the Reagan years until only recently?
I still don't get why some progressives really really like Warren.
Or that Mayor Pete has received a total of about 8 thousand votes in his entire political career?
Mayor Pete is running Senate, and he somehow managed to catch a bit of breeze.

So other than whataboutism... what was the point? How does this address the "socialism" baggage that will become an issue.
 
Also, if it's damning to Sanders that in his first presidential run, when he didn't want to do it (he asked Warren first, and only stepped in when she declined) and nobody knew him from a hole in the ground, he wasn't able to beat the most well-known Democrat in the country, why isn't it similarly damning that Biden has tried several times to become President and been trounced, sorely, each time? Why isn't it damning to Warren that she was a fucking Republican during the Reagan years until only recently? Or that Mayor Pete has received a total of about 8 thousand votes in his entire political career?
Sanders lost to Clinton who lost to Trump. Sanders, if nominated, will run against Trump. So, that is why his lost to HRC is brought up. It may be silly, but it at least has some sense to it.

I understand that Bernie bros believe their idol can metaphorically walk on water. And that nothing will alter that belief.

As to your other whataboutisms, what about them? Is anyone here touting those candidates as surefire winners vs Trump?
 
Who's parading Biden's previous attempts as golden?
Nobody, but Biden's running and failing to get the nomination shows that this criticism is not necessarily valid:
Yes... Sanders, the guy who couldn't get enough liberal support in the Democrat Party to win the nomination


I still don't get why some progressives really really like Warren.
Well her recent history of trying to hold bankers and businesses accountable was great. She was supporting Medicare for all. But since she has been backing away from that Medicare stance her polling has gone down.


How does this address the "socialism" baggage that will become an issue.
Republicans have been smearing any democratic candidate as an extreme leftist/communist/atheist/muslim/facist/socialist. They spent years going on about Obama's birth certificate even though he showed it to conservatives back in 2007. They just changed their smear to 'long form birth certificate'. They are just going to lie about any candidate no matter the facts, and a lot of republicans will just swallow every word. As for actual baggage, Bernie has less than other candidates. One of his strengths is he hasn't shifted positions with the political winds. Videos of his speeches from the 80's/90's show him having the same positions he does now.
 
Only by those intent on taking whatever she says the wrong way. But why would anyone deliberately do that?

But if lots of just plain folks take it to mean

Except that, once again, they are NOT taking "it to mean;" they are being lied to about what she said, so they are taking what Republicans and certain members of the media say she means.

lots of them just don't like Sanders then it's a case of her not understanding the electorate.

Once again, she was not talking about the electorate. You are blaming her for someone else deliberately misconstruing her comment and then blaming her again for "plain folk" believing the secondary person over her own words.

Just like her "deplorables" faux pas

Which wasn't until OTHERS deliberately took it out of context. Once again, you are blaming her for someone else deliberately taking her words out of context in order to tar her and then blaming her again for "plain folk" only listening to the tar.

or what she said about her plan to put lots of coal miners out of a job.

Which, again, she never said. What she ACTUALLY SAID was (emphasis mine):

MARTIN: Make the case to poor whites who live in Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, who vote Republican, why they should vote for you based upon economic policies versus voting for a Republican?

CLINTON: Well, first of all, I was happy to carry those states you mentioned, and I carried the white vote in those states too, that voted Democratic now, I don’t want to get carried away here.

Look, we have serious economic problems in many parts of our country. And Roland is absolutely right. Instead of dividing people the way Donald Trump does, let’s reunite around policies that will bring jobs and opportunities to all these underserved poor communities.

So for example, I’m the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right, Tim (ph)? And we’re going to make it clear that we don’t want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.

Now we’ve got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don’t want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.
So whether it’s coal country or Indian country or poor urban areas, there is a lot of poverty in America. We have gone backwards. We were moving in the right direction. In the ’90s more people were lifted out of poverty than any time in recent history.

Because of the terrible economic policies of the Bush administration, President Obama was left with the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, and people fell back into poverty because they lost jobs, they lost homes, they lost opportunities, and hope.

So I am passionate about this, which is why I have put forward specific plans about how we incentivize more jobs, more investment in poor communities, and put people to work.

Ironically, because she spoke the truth--and was honest about what needs to happen--her detractors pounced on that one phrase and changed a plan to put everyone to work--including coal miners--into a "plan to put lots of coal miners out of a job."

There seems to be a pattern there.

Very clearly! Detractors are deliberately misconstruing what she actually said in order to turn her positive, progressive statements into something she never advocated.

And people resent being told what they think.

Evidently only after they have literally been told what they think. Irony has no bounds.
 
Last edited:
Except that, once again, they are NOT taking "it to mean;" they are being lied to about what she said, so they are taking what Republicans and certain members of the media say she means.

lots of them just don't like Sanders then it's a case of her not understanding the electorate.

Once again, she was not talking about the electorate. You are blaming her for someone else deliberately misconstruing her comment and then blaming her again for "plain folk" believing the secondary person over her own words.

Just like her "deplorables" faux pas

Which wasn't until OTHERS deliberately took it out of context. Once again, you are blaming her for someone else deliberately taking her words out of context in order to tar her and then blaming her again for "plain folk" only listening to the tar.

or what she said about her plan to put lots of coal miners out of a job.

Which, again, she never said. What she ACTUALLY SAID was (emphasis mine):

MARTIN: Make the case to poor whites who live in Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, who vote Republican, why they should vote for you based upon economic policies versus voting for a Republican?

CLINTON: Well, first of all, I was happy to carry those states you mentioned, and I carried the white vote in those states too, that voted Democratic now, I don’t want to get carried away here.

Look, we have serious economic problems in many parts of our country. And Roland is absolutely right. Instead of dividing people the way Donald Trump does, let’s reunite around policies that will bring jobs and opportunities to all these underserved poor communities.

So for example, I’m the only candidate which has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into coal country. Because we’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right, Tim (ph)? And we’re going to make it clear that we don’t want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories.

Now we’ve got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels, but I don’t want to move away from the people who did the best they could to produce the energy that we relied on.
So whether it’s coal country or Indian country or poor urban areas, there is a lot of poverty in America. We have gone backwards. We were moving in the right direction. In the ’90s more people were lifted out of poverty than any time in recent history.

Because of the terrible economic policies of the Bush administration, President Obama was left with the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, and people fell back into poverty because they lost jobs, they lost homes, they lost opportunities, and hope.

So I am passionate about this, which is why I have put forward specific plans about how we incentivize more jobs, more investment in poor communities, and put people to work.

Ironically, because she spoke the truth--and was honest about what needs to happen--her detractors pounced on that one phrase and changed a plan to put everyone to work--including coal miners--into a "plan to put lots of coal miners out of a job."

There seems to be a pattern there.

Very clearly! Detractors are deliberately misconstruing what she actually said in order to turn her positive, progressive statements into something she never advocated.

And people resent being told what they think.

Evidently only after they have literally been told what they think. Irony has no bounds.

Yeah, I get what you're saying and how terrible it is that a politicians words have been taken out of context and that it's not fair. But she should not have uttered the phrases "Nobody likes him", "basket of deplorables", or "Because we’re going to put a lot of coal miners ... out of business". Because that's the phrase that stands out and the thing that hits home, even when it's heard in context. And it's totally unnecessary for her to make such pointless remarks because the only effect it can produce is one of sympathy for the subject. That is sympathy for Sanders because nobody likes him, sympathy for those deplorables while thinking maybe she means me, and those poor coal miners who she wants to put out of a job. That's the sentiment she creates. Fine, she has good intentions. It's ironic that she says and does the dumbest things.
 
Yeah, I get what you're saying and how terrible it is that a politicians words have been taken out of context and that it's not fair. But she should not have uttered the phrases "Nobody likes him", "basket of deplorables", or "Because we’re going to put a lot of coal miners ... out of business". Because that's the phrase that stands out and the thing that hits home, even when it's heard in context. And it's totally unnecessary for her to make such pointless remarks because the only effect it can produce is one of sympathy for the subject. That is sympathy for Sanders because nobody likes him, sympathy for those deplorables while thinking maybe she means me, and those poor coal miners who she wants to put out of a job. That's the sentiment she creates. Fine, she has good intentions. It's ironic that she says and does the dumbest things.

Uh huh.

So, what you just said was:

Yeah, I'm saying how terrible it is that nobody likes coal miners. Because that's the phrase that stands out and the thing that hits home, even when it's heard in context.

It's ironic that you say and do the dumbest things.

Oh, but wait. You DID NOT say or do anything at all. I deliberately misconstrued your words and turned them against you. Yet those are your words, right? So why do you think nobody likes coal miners? That's horrible. My father was a coal miner and his father before him and anyone who thinks that "nobody likes coal miners" is a terrible person. You should know that this a public forum and it's totally unnecessary for you to slur all coal miners like that. Don't you know that there are people here--me in particular--who have family and loved ones who DIED in coal mine explosions!! YOU HEARTLESS POS! How DARE you say those things!!

:confused2:
 
She should have been more careful with her words. I agree with you that she meant the powerful elites (that's a big part of his appeal), but it can be taken the other way, and backfire. Remains to be seen how the polls are effected.

No, she's not, in any way, responsible for the TYT crowd's foaming at the mouth and screeching every time she appears. The truth is that Cenk/Ana/Kyle/etc. need to learn that no, she's not simply going to vanish into thin air, nand react to her like the grown-assed people and "responsible journalists" that they claim to be.

ETA: I should ad that I did read the article, and this is actually a quote (that we don't know the full context of) from a documentary being shown at Sundance or some such film festival, that a reporter read back to Hillary, and then asked if she stood by it. Hillary said that she did.
 
Last edited:
Treedbear said:
she has good intentions.

So you're one of those damned Hillary supporters now.

That's hardly an endorsement but it's more than she just gave to Bernie. I'd be glad to support Hillary if nominated as Pres or VP but I think she's not a wise choice in the primaries compared with the other candidates. Too bad we don't have ranked choice voting. That's the only way a multiple candidate race can be expected to reflect what the voters really want.
 
Yeah, I get what you're saying and how terrible it is that a politicians words have been taken out of context and that it's not fair. But she should not have uttered the phrases "Nobody likes him", "basket of deplorables", or "Because we’re going to put a lot of coal miners ... out of business". Because that's the phrase that stands out and the thing that hits home, even when it's heard in context. And it's totally unnecessary for her to make such pointless remarks because the only effect it can produce is one of sympathy for the subject. That is sympathy for Sanders because nobody likes him, sympathy for those deplorables while thinking maybe she means me, and those poor coal miners who she wants to put out of a job. That's the sentiment she creates. Fine, she has good intentions. It's ironic that she says and does the dumbest things.

Uh huh.

So, what you just said was:

Yeah, I'm saying how terrible it is that nobody likes coal miners. Because that's the phrase that stands out and the thing that hits home, even when it's heard in context.

It's ironic that you say and do the dumbest things.

Oh, but wait. You DID NOT say or do anything at all. I deliberately misconstrued your words and turned them against you. Yet those are your words, right? So why do you think nobody likes coal miners? That's horrible. My father was a coal miner and his father before him and anyone who thinks that "nobody likes coal miners" is a terrible person. You should know that this a public forum and it's totally unnecessary for you to slur all coal miners like that. Don't you know that there are people here--me in particular--who have family and loved ones who DIED in coal mine explosions!! YOU HEARTLESS POS! How DARE you say those things!!

:confused2:

Try to be more objective will you. I'm not talking about an SNL skit. Nowhere did I say "nobody likes coal miners" the way Hillary did about Sanders. And I'm not running for office. We're talking about politics and how a qualified candidate needs to know how the voters think. She needs to inspire them, and not by first telling them point blank she's planning to eliminate their jobs. And indignantly blaming the media is not a good strategy.
 
Try to be more objective will you.

I always am.

Nowhere did I say "nobody likes coal miners" the way Hillary did about Sanders.

Hillary was referring to Sanders' Congressional peers, not that nobody in the world likes Sanders. Those are two entirely different statements, yet you (and others) are continuing to take it to mean only the second part.

If someone asked you a question about a person that you worked with--a professional character assessment question, iow about how they comport themselves at work and how peers perceive him, etc--and you knew that nobody in your office enjoyed working with that person and you said "Nobody likes him" and then his wife started yelling at you, "I LIKE HIM! HIS FAMILY LIKES HIM! LOT'S OF PEOPLE LIKE HIM!" Is her mistake your fault?

YOU were responding to a professional assessment of the person at work. SHE mistook what you were saying as a personal attack against her husband as a general statement.

Iow, nobody at his office likes to work with him as opposed to nobody in the world likes him. Those are two VERY different statements.

We're talking about politics

No, we're talking about dirty politics and deliberately misconstruing what someone said so that it has a different meaning. Just like when you said nobody likes coal miners. That's a TERRIBLE thing to say! Why would you say such a thing?

She needs to inspire them, and not by first telling them point blank she's planning to eliminate their jobs.

See? She did NOT say any such thing. Yet you keep repeating the lie, and not what she actually said. What she actually said was that we--as a species--need to move away from coal and into renewable energy and we need to move the people working in coal to these new jobs.

You turned that into: "telling them point blank she's planning to eliminate their jobs," when, in fact, she was saying those jobs are already dead so we need to save the workers by moving them over to renewable energy.

It was literally a plan to SAVE their jobs, not eliminate them.

And indignantly blaming the media is not a good strategy.

I'm not. I'm blaming people like you, who know what the truth is and instead keep repeating the lie. She's blaming the media, because they know what the truth is and yet keep repeating the lie.
 
...
We're talking about politics

No, we're talking about dirty politics and deliberately misconstruing what someone said so that it has a different meaning. Just like when you said nobody likes coal miners. That's a TERRIBLE thing to say! Why would you say such a thing?

I'm sorry but if she can't handle the dirt she should get out of the sandbox. Politics isn't like a box of chocolates. It's more like a box of dirt with a few chocolates in it.

She needs to inspire them, and not by first telling them point blank she's planning to eliminate their jobs.

See? She did NOT say any such thing. Yet you keep repeating the lie, and not what she actually said. What she actually said was that we--as a species--need to move away from coal and into renewable energy and we need to move the people working in coal to these new jobs.

You turned that into: "telling them point blank she's planning to eliminate their jobs," when, in fact, she was saying those jobs are already dead so we need to save the workers by moving them over to renewable energy.

It was literally a plan to SAVE their jobs, not eliminate them.

Then what did she mean by the following? -
In her new book, "What Happened" — officially out next Tuesday — Hillary Clinton wrote that her biggest regret from the campaign trail last year was saying she would put coal miners out of business.
...
She later lost every county in West Virginia — the country's premier coal-mining state — to Bernie Sanders in the Democratic primary, a dramatic reversal from her landslide win against Barack Obama in the state's 2008 Democratic primary.

The intelligent thing for a politician to say would have been "The unfortunate fact is that as cleaner energy sources are developed coal miners will be on the losing end of our economy unless we step in as a nation to help them transition to new and better jobs that have a solid future.", rather than spoon feeding one liners to Donald Trump who can go out and say she intends to destroy their jobs. Because that's true, even though it's out of context.

And indignantly blaming the media is not a good strategy.

I'm not. I'm blaming people like you, who know what the truth is and instead keep repeating the lie. She's blaming the media, because they know what the truth is and yet keep repeating the lie.

It's not a lie to criticize her for the way she delivered the message.

For the most part I think she would be a great President. Mainly because she is reasonably progressive and also experienced and tough enough to fight for a liberal agenda. But at this point there's just too much baggage attached to the Clinton name.
 
Back
Top Bottom