The Eve of the Birth of a Space Baby is nine hours away! Rejoice!

[Politesse]

Except that no one has that idea.

I'm sure there was a time when many Christians thought of God's throne a being literally above them somewhere, but that time was before we knew anything about outer space. When our knowledge of the universe expanded, so did our cosmologies.

I have never once seen a Christian "point to the sky" when talking about death. Again, I would be interested to see your evidence that anyone actually believes what you claim everyone believes?

And you know changing it from your assertion about your experience, and my assertion about my experience, and making it a matter of who has the better evidence, means that you need to start putting forward evidence, right?

I'm not the one making a weird claim.

 

[Learner]

Are you under the misapprehension that talking like a toddler makes your "enemies" sound childish, rather than yourself?

Good luck with that, kiddo.

To be fair to T.G.G., he's just setting the standard (in bold), on how we should approach this discussion, so we can all try to understand each other.

Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays , each and everyone!

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Are you under the misapprehension that talking like a toddler makes your "enemies" sound childish, rather than yourself?

Good luck with that, kiddo.

To be fair to T.G.G., he's just setting the standard (in bold), on how we should approach this discussion, so we can all try to understand each other.

Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays , each and everyone!

Jesus is a baby that came from space, a demigod produced from the union of a space creature and a human. After the baby grew up and finished his work with humans he went back to space, lifted up into the sky. Millions of ostensibly adult members of my species believe this literally. Personally I find it laughable so take time to mock such a belief, which is particularly easy when I've had some spiritus fermenti. The story is all rolled up in holy speak and clashes nicely with plain speak. I didn't invent that.

Solstice Greetings, Everyone!

 

[Rhea]

What an interesting and unexpected reply.

Space is not "up".

Wot.

Why isn't it?
It is the opposite direction from gravity, which is sort of universally "down," like; down the drain, down the hill, looking down at your feet, falling down, the reservoir level is down, elevators going down. All of these are in the direction to the center of earth and the opposite of which is "space."

Most Christians I have ever apoken to understand heaven to be something more along the lines of a different plane of existence, not a physical place in high orbit. Mormons do have beliefs concerning other planets, I think. But I do not think they visualize Jesus as physically flying between them. If you have evidence to the contrary, perhaps this could be supplied?

Meanwhile, the bible doesn't say that Jesus "winked out to another plane," it says "He was received up into heaven" and you need to answer abaddon's question,
Explain what is "up into heaven"? Give some details.
Before you can dismiss it as something "Most Christians" don't agree with. Because I think "most Christians" actually do visualize Jesus physically flying up.
Can you please elaborate?

 

[Politesse]

What an interesting and unexpected reply.

Space is not "up".

Wot.

Why isn't it?
It is the opposite direction from gravity, which is sort of universally "down," like; down the drain, down the hill, looking down at your feet, falling down, the reservoir level is down, elevators going down. All of these are in the direction to the center of earth and the opposite of which is "space."

Gravity is relative to whatever the most massive nearby object; up has no particular meaning in the context of outer space, which is full of all manner of celestial objects. Indeed, if "up" is defined by the directionality of gravity, surely the most significant "up" to those of us here on earth would be away from the sun, which keeps our entire planet in its well?

Most Christians I have ever apoken to understand heaven to be something more along the lines of a different plane of existence, not a physical place in high orbit. Mormons do have beliefs concerning other planets, I think. But I do not think they visualize Jesus as physically flying between them. If you have evidence to the contrary, perhaps this could be supplied?

Meanwhile, the bible doesn't say that Jesus "winked out to another plane," it says "He was received up into heaven" and you need to answer abaddon's question,
Explain what is "up into heaven"? Give some details.
Before you can dismiss it as something "Most Christians" don't agree with. Because I think "most Christians" actually do visualize Jesus physically flying up.
Can you please elaborate?

Into space? Who believes this? Not any Christian I have ever spoken with.

There are no details to give; this is not something that either scripture nor tradition have much to say on; indeed, works directly about heaven tend toward the mystical or allegorical. If my posts make you mad, St Teresa's "Interior Kingdom" will make you spit nails!

And don't get us started on the Bible. It isn't really the source of most people's beliefs so much as a fetish object they like to talk about and then ignore when inconvenient. But if it were, you would find it very confusing to try and reconcile Jesus' discussions of the dominion of God with your pretend astrogeography. "And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke, ch 17)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

What an interesting and unexpected reply.



Gravity is relative to whatever the most massive nearby object; up has no particular meaning in the context of outer space, which is full of all manner of celestial objects. Indeed, if "up" is defined by the directionality of gravity, surely the most significant "up" to those of us here on earth would be away from the sun, which keeps our entire planet in its well?

Most Christians I have ever apoken to understand heaven to be something more along the lines of a different plane of existence, not a physical place in high orbit. Mormons do have beliefs concerning other planets, I think. But I do not think they visualize Jesus as physically flying between them. If you have evidence to the contrary, perhaps this could be supplied?

Meanwhile, the bible doesn't say that Jesus "winked out to another plane," it says "He was received up into heaven" and you need to answer abaddon's question,
Explain what is "up into heaven"? Give some details.
Before you can dismiss it as something "Most Christians" don't agree with. Because I think "most Christians" actually do visualize Jesus physically flying up.
Can you please elaborate?

Into space? Who believes this? Not any Christian I have ever spoken with.

There are no details to give; this is not something that either scripture nor tradition have much to say on; indeed, works directly about heaven tend toward the mystical or allegorical. If my posts make you mad, St Teresa's "Interior Kingdom" will make you spit nails!

And don't get us started on the Bible. It isn't really the source of most people's beliefs so much as a fetish object they like to talk about and then ignore when inconvenient. But if it were, you would find it very confusing to try and reconcile Jesus' discussions of the dominion of God with your pretend astrogeography. "And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation; neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke, ch 17)

You must not interact with many jesus followers. It's not such a damning thing for people to gaze skyward when they are speaking to their gods. The vast majority will affirm that jesus went up into heaven, into the clouds, and will come again. Of course, one can come to any number of infinite conclusions concerning the NT and other writings, and this is why there are thousands of different sects and sects of sects. But I bet the majority of those will attest that jesus went up into the clouds when he left.

We're intelligent here, and arrogant too, so we like to come up with explanations and observations that fit our desires. Using plain speak, however, the christian demigod went back up into the sky to return again at his chosen time.

The sun is about to set. Hey, it's closer on the horizon than yesterday! Praise Jesus!

(Actually it's got a couple hours to go)

 

[abaddon]

Into space? Who believes this?

Nobody. They believe heaven is up. The logical extrapolation is up into space. To point that out is to mock the imagery.

If people are talking what sounds like crazy shit, and you try to highlight that by reflecting back at them how it sounds like crazy shit, then going "You're mocking what sounds like crazy shit!" doesn't fix how it sounds like crazy shit.

There are no details to give; this is not something that either scripture nor tradition have much to say on...

Well, see, that's something to think about. Belief in other realms seems to always require being content with few details.

When I was a little kid, a preacher was going on about the roof flying off the church someday and all the congregation flying up and out. I looked up and wondered if the roof had hinges to help that happen; it wasn't skepticism but my curiosity. I later, as a teen, lost my mind and stopped the questioning, for a while, and held the vague belief (up and out of this dark world) without thinking it through in detail anymore. But then I regained my mind and realized that's crazy shit.

The problem's still there. People think heaven is up and out of the world into somewhere better than earthly reality. If that can be made into something sensible, allegorically, then tell it to the Christians.

And don't get us started on the Bible.

Who is "us"? And in a post yesterday you were talking on behalf of "we" Christians.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember you saying you're an atheist Wiccan Christian?

Born in another time, you'd have been burned at a stake if they found out how heretical you are. So why do you present yourself as representative of Christians? Is it your opportunity to show how sophisticated this stuff COULD BE in the hands of people other than Christian fundies? If so, that's going to take details.

It's possible a few Christian mystics weren't just driven crazy by a mix of fervor and austerities. Though, as Sam Harris remarked, on the occasions some Christian contemplatives start making sense, they sound less like Christians and more like Buddhists (less stuff about the distant otherness, yet literalness, of heaven). But in the end, that argument is with the "most Christians" we've been discussing. Tell them about an allegorical, a-historical, psychological understanding of their mythology.

 

[Politesse]

Nobody. They believe heaven is up. The logical extrapolation is up into space.

And there's the admission. Thank you.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Nobody. They believe heaven is up. The logical extrapolation is up into space.

And there's the admission. Thank you.

That's an affirmation, not an admission.

 

[Rhea]

If my posts make you mad,

What makes you even think this? Just curious. You make me wonder what picture you have of me in your mind. Because you keep surprising me with comments like this.

 

[Rhea]

Nobody. They believe heaven is up. The logical extrapolation is up into space.

And there's the admission. Thank you.

You're welcome.
They believe Heaven is up.
They know space is up.

 

[Learner]

Jesus is a baby that came from space, a demigod produced from the union of a space creature and a human. After the baby grew up and finished his work with humans he went back to space, lifted up into the sky. Millions of ostensibly adult members of my species believe this literally. Personally I find it laughable so take time to mock such a belief, which is particularly easy when I've had some spiritus fermenti. The story is all rolled up in holy speak and clashes nicely with plain speak. I didn't invent that.

Solstice Greetings, Everyone!

But... this Jesus, a baby "coming from space" is not the same as the Jesus born on earth in a manger? There are two?

It could be confusing just as the notion of Jesus sitting on the right side of God where they would have seats or thrones, no stationary floors are then floating about in space, perhaps it includes a spaceship. This does sound familiar, "gods in space" .... ah yes, I think this is in line with Eric von Danikens "alien" gods ! There'd be seats or thrones on a big big starship in this case.

What if "in heaven" mean't "in a starship" ?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If Jesus went up into space, shouldn’t we be able to see a red shirted image of him with Hubble or something?

We should track his flight path to find the physical location of Heaven and then use Trump’s new space force to attack it as a preemptive strike to avert the invasion discussed in Revelations.

 

[Rhea]

Jesus is a baby that came from space, a demigod produced from the union of a space creature and a human.

But... this Jesus, a baby "coming from space" is not the same as the Jesus born on earth in a manger? There are two?

I think “came from space” means sired by a space being, despite being born in a manger.

 

[Toni]

I never understand why people who claim to be so secure in their beliefs/non-beliefs feel compelled to make posts attempting to ridicule those who believe differently than they do.

From my personal perspective, they make people look insecure and usually, not particularly knowledgeable. Or open minded themselves.

 

[blastula]

He's still not wrong though.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I never understand why people who claim to be so secure in their beliefs/non-beliefs feel compelled to make posts attempting to ridicule those who believe differently than they do.

From my personal perspective, they make people look insecure and usually, not particularly knowledgeable. Or open minded themselves.

Acts 1
⁹ And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

40% of Americans claim to take the Bible literally as word of God. Up in a cloud? Then what? Where? Heaven? Another dimension?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I never understand why people who claim to be so secure in their beliefs/non-beliefs feel compelled to make posts attempting to ridicule those who believe differently than they do.

From my personal perspective, they make people look insecure and usually, not particularly knowledgeable. Or open minded themselves.

I'm guessing that is primarily directed my way.

We all react to ridicule. If the reaction is to ask ourselves what is so ridiculous about what I just stated, then that's a good thing. There's no doubt an evolutionary component at work here.

I've only recently begun to associate christianity with alien abductionism. For a christian who hears someone make this association their first thoughts are certainly that the person is a kook and that there's nothing in the christian corpus about aliens and alien abductions. But on closer inspection it is precisely that. I've heard many christians laugh about how "other" religions and other christians have such strange beliefs and practices without ever reflecting on their own. 99% of it is just pure comforting kookery.

When someone blasts the truth in your face it generally takes time for that new experience to rattle around and make sense if it's going to happen at all.

 

[atrib]

Into space? Who believes this? Not any Christian I have ever spoken with.

Luke 24:51
Now it came to pass, while he blessed them, that he was parted from them and carried up into heaven.

Acts 1:9
Now when he had spoken these things, while they watched, he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight.

That is what a plain reading of the book says, that Jesus was physically lifted off the face of the planet and somewhere into the sky. A lot of historical paintings also support this reading. Since we have aircraft that frequently fly through the outer edges of the atmosphere and they have never detected heaven, it would stand to reason that heaven lies outside the atmosphere of the planet, i.e. in space, or possibly outside our known universe.

Many Christians down south read the Bible as written. Your interpretation that Jesus blinked out of existence from our "plane of reality" into some other "plane of reality" (whatever that might mean) is an interpretation that is not shared by many of the Christians I have spoken to over the past 30 years. You are attempting to add a veneer of sophistication that I don't believe was intended by the authors of the Bible.

 

[Politesse]

Into space? Who believes this? Not any Christian I have ever spoken with.

Luke 24:51
Now it came to pass, while he blessed them, that he was parted from them and carried up into heaven.

Acts 1:9
Now when he had spoken these things, while they watched, he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight.

That is what a plain reading of the book says, that Jesus was physically lifted off the face of the planet and somewhere into the sky. A lot of historical paintings also support this reading. Since we have aircraft that frequently fly through the outer edges of the atmosphere and they have never detected heaven, it would stand to reason that heaven lies outside the atmosphere of the planet, i.e. in space, or possibly outside our known universe.

Many Christians down south read the Bible as written. Your interpretation that Jesus blinked out of existence from our "plane of reality" into some other "plane of reality" (whatever that might mean) is an interpretation that is not shared by many of the Christians I have spoken to over the past 30 years. You are attempting to add a veneer of sophistication that I don't believe was intended by the authors of the Bible.

So they believe he "flew into space". Can you document this? Who are these "many Christians down south" and why are they so secretive about their views?

You are severely muddling things by bringing up the intent of the authors. They did not know that "space", as such, existed. Stars and planets, yes, but they were visualized as being stuck into a solid "firmament" that arched over the flat face of the earth, beyond which "the heavens" were indeed to be found.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bib...e:Early_Hebrew_Conception_of_the_Universe.png

But no one today has such a cosmology, not even the flat earthers; even they describe an endless sky and celestial bodies in free movement. What the authors believed is a reflection of their time, not ours. Indeed, I strongly doubt that most modern Christians have any idea of what ancient Judaean cosmology looked like. Most "literalists" I talk to seem to assume that the Bible was written to be understood primarily in our context, not the other way around; they get pissed off at the very idea of considering the historical context of a passage.