The horrible horrible world of sports

[TSwizzle]

Another dodgy racism charge was leveled at Chelsea defender John Terry who was accused of calling a black opposition player Anton Ferdinand (Rio Ferdinand's brother) "a fucking black cunt, knobhead". That got all the way to the criminal court where Terry was cleared. Terry claimed he called Anton a "fucking blind cunt". I can't remember the details and I can't find the video of the incident but I seem to remember it was something like "Anton, I never called you a black cunt, knobhead", there was actual audio of the incident somewhere. Teh Gruaniad has a slo-mo video but no audio. But this sort of exchange should not ruin people's lives or livelihoods. Apparently the Ferdinand brothers still don't speak to Terry.

jeezus, now I am terrified I blurt out "black cunt"

 

[jab]

Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything? Who gives a rats ass if the guy who wins at long jump is a member of KKK? Or if the bronze medalist pole vaulter is a member of the Taleban? Or if the gold winner of badminton is open about their pedophilia? Or if the guy who does the schedules for the tennis tournament thinks beating your wife is morally ok because it says in the Bible?

How would any of that take away from their athletic performance or ability to organize a sports competition?

I just think that ideology has no place in sports. That's all I wanted to say with this thread. We don't have to police ideological purity ALL THE FUCKING TIME. It's reached a point where I think it's ridiculous and it needs to stop. And when we reach the point where we're rapping athletes on the knuckles for what they say, then it's gone too far, IMHO. They're not paid to think. They're paid to sport.

Who gives a shit? At a minimum:
for hypothetical 1. team members who aren't Wasps; for hypothetical 2. people with children, particularly any competitors who are not of legal age; for hypothetical 3. women he has to work with, including women tennis players.

 

[jab]

Dude, you asked a question.

Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything?

I answered it. Clearly companies and advertisers and those advertised to care what athletes think due to the amount of money athletes are paid to promote a product. They've been paying them a lot for a long while.

You tried to negate the importance of what athletes think by pretending no one cares what they think. That was pretty easily debunked. So if you don't like having a question you asked being answered, you should stop asking questions.

It was a rhetorical question. Why would anyone care what an athlete thinks about anything? It's retarded.

in some sports at least, ones that require tactics--dumbness is a detriment. You seem to be condescending to people in the sports world by situating them as lower class than you--i. e. as working class, and therefore inclined to be verbally and socially crass, to be uninformed, and to be incapable of becoming informed. Except for the working class, this is a description of Donald Trump, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, members of America's "educated" economic elite.

 

[jab]

Another dodgy racism charge was leveled at Chelsea defender John Terry who was accused of calling a black opposition player Anton Ferdinand (Rio Ferdinand's brother) "a fucking black cunt, knobhead". That got all the way to the criminal court where Terry was cleared. Terry claimed he called Anton a "fucking blind cunt". I can't remember the details and I can't find the video of the incident but I seem to remember it was something like "Anton, I never called you a black cunt, knobhead", there was actual audio of the incident somewhere. Teh Gruaniad has a slo-mo video but no audio. But this sort of exchange should not ruin people's lives or livelihoods. Apparently the Ferdinand brothers still don't speak to Terry.

jeezus, now I am terrified I blurt out "black cunt"

so, misogyny in his insult was okay.

 

[TSwizzle]

Another dodgy racism charge was leveled at Chelsea defender John Terry who was accused of calling a black opposition player Anton Ferdinand (Rio Ferdinand's brother) "a fucking black cunt, knobhead". That got all the way to the criminal court where Terry was cleared. Terry claimed he called Anton a "fucking blind cunt". I can't remember the details and I can't find the video of the incident but I seem to remember it was something like "Anton, I never called you a black cunt, knobhead", there was actual audio of the incident somewhere. Teh Gruaniad has a slo-mo video but no audio. But this sort of exchange should not ruin people's lives or livelihoods. Apparently the Ferdinand brothers still don't speak to Terry.

jeezus, now I am terrified I blurt out "black cunt"

so, misogyny in his insult was okay.

I will assume you are referring to the use of the word "cunt". In the grand scheme of things "cunt" is just a generic swear word in the UK. Very much part of the vernacular. Some people find it very offensive. I don't find it offensive. I don't use that word very often but I do in certain situations. Or at least I used to.

 

[Tigers!]

jeezus, now I am terrified I blurt out "black cunt"

So don't blurt it out. Its not terribly difficult to avoid saying it.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yes, I think it is less racist. Or is it simply people keep their bigoted thoughts to themselves ?

Here's a theory. Don't you think it's simply down to more time has passed since the age of imperialism? Or for USA it was segregation. When all of society was collectively conspiring to convince themselves that brown people really were inferior as to justify the colonial holdings and the treatment of blacks. Once all the major colonies were dismantled in the 60'ies that need went away.

The reason I think this is because prior to the age of imperialism racism wasn't a thing. Ethnic cleansing, tribalism and and extreme forms of nationalism existed. But that was on a much smaller level. And in no way justified scientifically. Scientific racism, I think is a product of a specific historical time. And will go away the further back that historical time can be found.

For the most part I agree with much of what you say but you have been ambiguous when people have tried to pin you down. But it doesn't really matter, in polite society and public arenas there are certain blurry lines that cannot be crossed whether it be racist comments, "homophobic", sexist or whatever. I gave an earlier example of a black football player calling another black football player a "choc ice", black on the outside, white on the inside. He was originally investigated for racism. These types of comments I don't get as racism. But you have still failed to bring up an example or incident of what you are actually referring to. Who exactly are you talking about ?

I couldn't find the specific article again. But this it's the German cycling coach, Patrick Moser, who comes up at the top when googling for coaches who have been fired for racist remarks.

https://www.google.com/search?q=coa...22i29i30l2.10439j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But it wasn't just that article. It was the article that made me see the pattern.

I'd just like to add a little slice of life from back when I had a Jewish wife and I was visiting her sisters and mother in Budapest. One sister says to the other sister, "if Hitler would have done a better job, you wouldn't be standing in my way now". People say edgy stuff when they think nobody is listening. Our world of everything being recorded and put out in public is new. The less technologically savvy among most likely haven't had enough time to adapt. Everybody on this forum clearly are cool with the new Internet paradigm and have adapted to the new culture. But everybody isn't like this. A lot of people aren't. A lot of people are just out there in the world living life and are too busy having fun and getting shit done to worry about how their words might be interpreted by people they'll never meet.

I'm willing to bet that anybody who manages to achieve any kind of greatness and extraordinary achievement will be a little bit retarded when it comes to current events. Otherwise they wouldn't have time to be so awesome.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything? Who gives a rats ass if the guy who wins at long jump is a member of KKK? Or if the bronze medalist pole vaulter is a member of the Taleban? Or if the gold winner of badminton is open about their pedophilia? Or if the guy who does the schedules for the tennis tournament thinks beating your wife is morally ok because it says in the Bible?

How would any of that take away from their athletic performance or ability to organize a sports competition?

I just think that ideology has no place in sports. That's all I wanted to say with this thread. We don't have to police ideological purity ALL THE FUCKING TIME. It's reached a point where I think it's ridiculous and it needs to stop. And when we reach the point where we're rapping athletes on the knuckles for what they say, then it's gone too far, IMHO. They're not paid to think. They're paid to sport.

Who gives a shit? At a minimum:
for hypothetical 1. team members who aren't Wasps; for hypothetical 2. people with children, particularly any competitors who are not of legal age; for hypothetical 3. women he has to work with, including women tennis players.

Sports isn't a wasp activity anymore. Just look at the participant roster at the Olympics. You are living in the past. People of colour aren't a vulnerable minority at the Olympics that we need to go out of our way to protect. That's a silly world view today.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Another dodgy racism charge was leveled at Chelsea defender John Terry who was accused of calling a black opposition player Anton Ferdinand (Rio Ferdinand's brother) "a fucking black cunt, knobhead". That got all the way to the criminal court where Terry was cleared. Terry claimed he called Anton a "fucking blind cunt". I can't remember the details and I can't find the video of the incident but I seem to remember it was something like "Anton, I never called you a black cunt, knobhead", there was actual audio of the incident somewhere. Teh Gruaniad has a slo-mo video but no audio. But this sort of exchange should not ruin people's lives or livelihoods. Apparently the Ferdinand brothers still don't speak to Terry.

jeezus, now I am terrified I blurt out "black cunt"

Slurs are interesting that way. It tells us about what is the most taboo in society. Over time they get overused and then they stop packing a punch. But racial slurs are kept potent by this liberal conspiracy to keep them so. It's sociologically interesting.

I once saw a study on words for vagina. They start out among dockworkers who thought the current words were a bit lame. They manage to find words that horrify everybody else. So they use them profusely. After a while other working class people get used to it and they start using it. Over time it climbs up the social ladder until fancy people can use it in polite conversation and it has lost all its punch.

I wish I could find that list again. It's was pretty cool to read it.

 

[Toni]

No, racial slurs are kept popular and potent by racism and by racists using the slurs.

There is a reason that certain words are slurs. Those reasons have not vanished because DrZoidberg isn't offended by them or willing to consider the insult to other people as valid as his own feefees.

 

[TSwizzle]

Here's a theory. Don't you think it's simply down to more time has passed since the age of imperialism?

It may be part of it but I think there are other factors involved.

The reason I think this is because prior to the age of imperialism racism wasn't a thing. Ethnic cleansing, tribalism and and extreme forms of nationalism existed. But that was on a much smaller level. And in no way justified scientifically. Scientific racism, I think is a product of a specific historical time. And will go away the further back that historical time can be found.

You think/observe this or you read it somewhere ? It's actually getting quite difficult to define racism. Almost any incident is declared "RACIST!!" when actual fact it probably isn't. I think a lot of things that are "racist" is really more of a class/caste category. An extreme snobbery perhaps

I couldn't find the specific article again. But this it's the German cycling coach, Patrick Moser, who comes up at the top when googling for coaches who have been fired for racist remarks.

https://www.google.com/search?q=coa...22i29i30l2.10439j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But it wasn't just that article. It was the article that made me see the pattern.

Yes, I saw that earlier and that's a pretty good example. Sports is very competitive, it really is about stamping your superiority over others in a measurable way.
Moser was trying to motivate his team by telling them they were superior to the "goat/camel herders in front of them". Racist ? Hmm, not really. I feel that this falls into the class/caste category where the Germans are a superior culture and have better athletes than a poor nation such as Algeria.

I'm willing to bet that anybody who manages to achieve any kind of greatness and extraordinary achievement will be a little bit retarded when it comes to current events. Otherwise they wouldn't have time to be so awesome.

A lot of elite athletes are ignorant, knuckle dragging boneheads with too much money. Perhaps a certain amount of leeway should be given when they make a faux pas. But the Twitterati lynch mob and offense archeologists who comb through social media looking for indiscretions must have their pound of flesh.

 

[TSwizzle]

Another dodgy racism charge was leveled at Chelsea defender John Terry who was accused of calling a black opposition player Anton Ferdinand (Rio Ferdinand's brother) "a fucking black cunt, knobhead". That got all the way to the criminal court where Terry was cleared. Terry claimed he called Anton a "fucking blind cunt". I can't remember the details and I can't find the video of the incident but I seem to remember it was something like "Anton, I never called you a black cunt, knobhead", there was actual audio of the incident somewhere. Teh Gruaniad has a slo-mo video but no audio. But this sort of exchange should not ruin people's lives or livelihoods. Apparently the Ferdinand brothers still don't speak to Terry.

Slurs are interesting that way. It tells us about what is the most taboo in society. Over time they get overused and then they stop packing a punch. But racial slurs are kept potent by this liberal conspiracy to keep them so. It's sociologically interesting.

I agree with you there. Let's say Terry had simply said "Anton you cunt". Nothing would have come of it. Or if Terry had picked on a different physical feature "Anton, you big nosed cunt" or "Anton you baldy cunt". Same lack of reaction I expect. But add in the word "black", all hell is let loose. That's a strange one to me. Anton is clearly black, why is this attribute never to be pointed out, why is it "racist" to do so ? Of course other attributes are getting into the mix of being taboo. Call someone a "fat cunt" and you are now guilty of fat shaming.

Masculinity is another taboo. There was a recent soccer game here in San Diego (Loyal) where an openly gay player was "abused" by an opponent. The manager, Landon Donovan pulled his players out of the game. The "abuse" was basically name calling. I don't know exactly what term was used but I imagine someone called another player a 'faggot" or something like that during a heated moment in the match. Poor baby couldn't cope with this and threw a hissy fit. "Someone called me a bad name so I'm not playing." I don't know how a professional athlete gets to this level with such a fragile mentality. I played lower level amateur soccer and getting called names was common if things got heated. So was off the ball acts of violence. It was part of the gamesmanship if you wanted to stamp your superiority over your opponent. Even when I played in the USA on a mostly Latino team, these guys used to use really let fly with the most inappropriate language. It was interesting to see their "racism". How certain Mexicans looked down upon Hondurans or Guatemalans and of course the African Americans. Oof, it was quite an eye opener. But I think it was more class/caste orientated than "racism". But there could be out and out racist behavior from some of these Latino guys, particularly towards African Americans.

I once saw a study on words for vagina. They start out among dockworkers who thought the current words were a bit lame. They manage to find words that horrify everybody else. So they use them profusely. After a while other working class people get used to it and they start using it. Over time it climbs up the social ladder until fancy people can use it in polite conversation and it has lost all its punch.

I wish I could find that list again. It's was pretty cool to read it.

No doubt.

 

[jab]

Another dodgy racism charge was leveled at Chelsea defender John Terry who was accused of calling a black opposition player Anton Ferdinand (Rio Ferdinand's brother) "a fucking black cunt, knobhead". That got all the way to the criminal court where Terry was cleared. Terry claimed he called Anton a "fucking blind cunt". I can't remember the details and I can't find the video of the incident but I seem to remember it was something like "Anton, I never called you a black cunt, knobhead", there was actual audio of the incident somewhere. Teh Gruaniad has a slo-mo video but no audio. But this sort of exchange should not ruin people's lives or livelihoods. Apparently the Ferdinand brothers still don't speak to Terry.

jeezus, now I am terrified I blurt out "black cunt"

so, misogyny in his insult was okay.

I will assume you are referring to the use of the word "cunt". In the grand scheme of things "cunt" is just a generic swear word in the UK. Very much part of the vernacular. Some people find it very offensive. I don't find it offensive. I don't use that word very often but I do in certain situations. Or at least I used to.

oh, the "generic swear word" defense--well, alrighty then; tell me, is "sod" still a generic swear word in the UK?
"cunt" is an english word, going back centuries--you can find it in Chaucer--for the female genitalia.

 

[TSwizzle]

I will assume you are referring to the use of the word "cunt". In the grand scheme of things "cunt" is just a generic swear word in the UK. Very much part of the vernacular. Some people find it very offensive. I don't find it offensive. I don't use that word very often but I do in certain situations. Or at least I used to.

oh, the "generic swear word" defense

Defense ? No, I'm just trying to explain to you how this word is generally used in the UK. The context is typically not misogynist. And to be fair to Terry, he did call Anton a knobhead too which is a reference to the penis. Dickhead and bell end are often used.

alrighty then; tell me, is "sod" still a generic swear word in the UK?

Pretty much.

Not sure what your point is so if you have one, get to it eh ?

 

[ZiprHead]

Sometimes people aren't nice, or behave in a way we'd like them to. It's the price we pay for freedom of expression.

But it sounds like you want to take away the freedom of expression of people that criticise the "not nice" people.

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's actually getting quite difficult to define racism. Almost any incident is declared "RACIST!!" when actual fact it probably isn't.

I don't care what wokes say any longer. And I certainly won't let them define words for us. That's a dangerous slippery slope to go down.

I think a lot of things that are "racist" is really more of a class/caste category. An extreme snobbery perhaps

The Greeks were amazingly arrogant and condescending when it comes to non-Greeks. But their definition of Greek was simply if they spoke Greek. As long as the foreigner did that and honoured the Greek gods (as well as their own) they were welcome with open arms.

Rome had a similar view of things, but a lot more liberal.

Vikings weren't racist, elitist or looked down on non-Vikings at all.

Scientific racism didn't become a thing until mid 1850'ies when the trans Atlantic slave trade had been going for over a hundred years. It's with people like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Ignaz_Pruner

Before this it was something we did because it was out of sight. But Europeans were never cool about the slave trade. It was something we did because the people we sent to the colonies weren't the cream of the European crop. A lot of them were pretty horrible people who had left Europe for good reasons. It was these horrible people who had no qualms about getting in on the slave trade.

Moser was trying to motivate his team by telling them they were superior to the "goat/camel herders in front of them". Racist ? Hmm, not really. I feel that this falls into the class/caste category where the Germans are a superior culture and have better athletes than a poor nation such as Algeria.

I don't think that's racist. You'd need to try very hard to find anything racial about that. Danes call Swedes perpetual drunks all the time. We make fun of them for sounding retarded when they speak. Nobody is offended. Herding goats is a big part of the Algerian economy. So it's a class thing, rather than race thing.

I think it's perfectly permissible in the land of sports, to do your best to wind up your opponents.

I'm willing to bet that anybody who manages to achieve any kind of greatness and extraordinary achievement will be a little bit retarded when it comes to current events. Otherwise they wouldn't have time to be so awesome.

A lot of elite athletes are ignorant, knuckle dragging boneheads with too much money. Perhaps a certain amount of leeway should be given when they make a faux pas. But the Twitterati lynch mob and offense archeologists who comb through social media looking for indiscretions must have their pound of flesh.

A lot of athletes are also more focused on winning than they are on how they formulate themselves politically correct. Especially in the heat of the moment.

Getting offended by this, is trying way too hard to get offended.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

A lot of athletes are also more focused on winning than they are on how they formulate themselves politically correct. Especially in the heat of the moment.

Getting offended by this, is trying way too hard to get offended.

But why just athletes, what about plumbers and steel workers? What about a host of other trades? Earlier I posted this:

Okay, I want to understand your position.

Many of us are parents, raised families, we're grandparents, we raised kids. Are you advocating that I tell my five-year-old who is playing T-ball that it's okay to tell Sammy he's just a dumb nigger boy while you're playing the game? But that when the game is over it's improper and unacceptable to refer to him with racist comments.

Also, if someone calls you a Spook or a Gook or a Coon because your parents are black and asian, take it all with a smile while you're up to bat. It's all in the game. But when the game is over these are insults and cannot be accepted.

Is that your position?

I will assume you took that as a rhetorical post as it elicited no response from you. Or am I missing the assumption that at some "proper" age children engaged in table tennis are best advised to begin appearing dull and intellectually dimwitted when they pick up their paddles? This is sport after all, so feel free to grunt, sweat and be abusive.

 

[Toni]

I think the real lesson of this thread is just how important it is to some people to be able to think well of themselves.

 

[DrZoidberg]

A lot of athletes are also more focused on winning than they are on how they formulate themselves politically correct. Especially in the heat of the moment.

Getting offended by this, is trying way too hard to get offended.

But why just athletes, what about plumbers and steel workers? What about a host of other trades? Earlier I posted this:

Okay, I want to understand your position.

Many of us are parents, raised families, we're grandparents, we raised kids. Are you advocating that I tell my five-year-old who is playing T-ball that it's okay to tell Sammy he's just a dumb nigger boy while you're playing the game? But that when the game is over it's improper and unacceptable to refer to him with racist comments.

Also, if someone calls you a Spook or a Gook or a Coon because your parents are black and asian, take it all with a smile while you're up to bat. It's all in the game. But when the game is over these are insults and cannot be accepted.

Is that your position?

I will assume you took that as a rhetorical post as it elicited no response from you. Or am I missing the assumption that at some "proper" age children engaged in table tennis are best advised to begin appearing dull and intellectually dimwitted when they pick up their paddles? This is sport after all, so feel free to grunt, sweat and be abusive.

It's not a question of just letting it slide. It's a question of what punishment is appropriate. Would the acceptable punishment for Sammy be that you give him up for adoption, or is it more reasonable to just give him a stern talking to?

It's also a question of context. Your kid is playing sports with friends that he's going to have around for a while. He's insulting people in his own tribe. For kids anybody they play sports with will always be people in the same tribe. For adults in national competitions, it's another environment, with a hell of a lot more riding on succeeding. When more is riding on winning, people might say more unfortunate things.

And then it's also the situation of making everything said about anybody in any way ethnically different into racism. The cycle coach called Algerians a bunch of goat herders. What exactly is racist about that?

 

[TSwizzle]

It's also a question of context. Your kid is playing sports with friends that he's going to have around for a while. He's insulting people in his own tribe. For kids anybody they play sports with will always be people in the same tribe. For adults in national competitions, it's another environment, with a hell of a lot more riding on succeeding. When more is riding on winning, people might say more unfortunate things.

Eh ? That's not the way youth sports work. There are cross town rivalries, high school rivalries, out of state tournaments. You actually seldom compete within your "tribe". You compete almost always against another tribe. Jeezus, high school basketball, softball AYSO soccer gets real chippy and that's just the girls !! Parents are ejected from gym/field all the time too.