The human mind

[untermensche]

This is not explained by that study you posted.

This shows completely different underlying activity.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Not exactly the image I was hoping to find, but it suffices. These are all isolated instrument and vocal tracks for the same song:

 

[untermensche]

There is only one instrument.

And if you are seeing completely different electrical activity you must also have completely different activity creating it.

Just like if you see a completely different pattern in two different violin pieces you know the activity creating the patterns are different.

Playing a violin slowly is a different activity from playing one quickly.

 

[DBT]

I doubt that you can see the irony of your remark.

I'm not ignorant of what my mind is doing like some.

There is no 'you' who is in possession of a mind to operate. You are an aspect of a mind being generated by a brain. It is the brain that operates a whole collection of aspects of conscious mind, a conscious self, thoughts, feelings, decisions made, actions taken, etc.....all of these aspects of mind being the work of a brain.

I have opinions I can defend with ideas.

You have ideas. Ideas are ten cents a dozen. What you lack is research and evidence, not only lack, but ignore actual research and evidence in order to maintain a discredited idea'

The brain creates the autonomous mind. So fucking what?

That's where you go wrong. You assume that your idea of autonomous mind has validity. It does not. There is no evidence to support the idea, but there is abundant evidence against it, which you brush aside.

 

[untermensche]

There is no 'you' who is in possession of a mind to operate.

I am a mind with the power to do things.

So are you most likely.

You are an aspect of a mind being generated by a brain.

I am something that once generated is master over the brain in some ways within limits

If somebody asks me what the capital of Tennessee is I actively do something to make the brain retrieve the memory for me.

If I want the cup on the table I force the body to get it.

If some life threatening circumstance arises then fear reflexes may take over and cause some movements not ordered by the mind.

It is the brain that operates a whole collection of aspects of conscious mind

That is only an unsupported opinion.

My opinion is the brain creates the mind and the mind can do some things within limits once created. It is a phenomena that can act on it's own. It is unlike anything else in the universe.

And my conclusions are based on experience and reason as opposed to your "ideas" worth less than ten cents that are supported by nothing but a claim.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

There is only one instrument.

Joy. More binary thinking, Clearly there is not:

And if you are seeing completely different electrical activity you must also have completely different activity creating it.

Non-sequitur. Think of the conductor of an orchestra.

Or watch the video here: NonStudio Needed: How Anyone Can Make a Hit Record With A Laptop. I'm sure you won't, because for some bizarre reason you have this compulsion toward binary thinking, but, again, one computer program can handle all manner of sub-activities. We don't need dedicated computers to handle each instrument track.

Just like if you see a completely different pattern in two different violin pieces you know the activity creating the patterns are different.

Playing a violin slowly is a different activity from playing one quickly.

And yet it's ALL part of the same song:



What is your problem with multitasking after all? According to you, the brain created "the Mind" so why can't the brain create multiple such "minds" and have them all interact? That is, after all, essentially what happens with Dissociative Identity Disorder (aka, Multiple Personality Disorder) and other forms of mental problems, like hearing voices and seeing "visions" (aka, hallucinations) and the like.

Hell, every time you dream the brain creates a whole danse macabre of characters that your "dream self" interacts with as if they were "real," but that doesn't seem to bother you in any way. You can have a dream of you having sex with Marilyn Monroe but there can't be any number of "minds" that your brain can create? Just "one" instrument for no good reason whatsoever?

Just bizarre the way you dogmatically insist on rigid binary assertions. They get you exactly nowhere and are so easily disproved by numerous examples.

 

[untermensche]

Tell me how you get two completely different songs with as many instruments as you imagine are playing without also having completely different activity?

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Tell me how you get two completely different songs with as many instruments as you imagine are playing without also having completely different activity?

Same song (i.e. "specific activity"). Multiple instruments (i.e., "specific activity"). One conductor (i.e., "specific activity").

Again, why are you pretending to not comprehend the concept of multi-tasking or sub-routines or parallel processing or an entire orchestra playing multiple different songs, yet still maintaining a consistent analogous whole?

We already "know" from dreams alone that the brain can create entire dreamscapes, imbuing into the dream "self" all kinds of information; such as time dilation and certainty about the events that lingers well into the waking state and multiple other "characters" in the dreamscapes with us that the brain likewise imbues us with knowing who they are, in spite of the fact that they may not actually look anything like their real world counterparts, etc.

I would wager you have had many dreams where you wake up and say to a friend of loved one, "I knew it was you, but it was you in dog form" or the like." So how would you know--in the dream--that it was that person unless it was your brain imbuing that information? Or the fact that your dream experiences seemed to you in the dream to have spanned several days or weeks or even lifetimes, and yet, you wake up and poof!

It was so real in the dream, which can only be the result of the brain imbuing "you" with that sensation, because it certainly wasn't actual. You didn't fuck Marilyn Monroe for twenty days straight. That entire "experience" may have only taken a nano-second in "real" time to imbue, but to you in the dream it felt like 20 days, etc.

So the brain very clearly can create entire realities AND the characters to inhabit them where they can fucking FLY if they want to, so where does any of this denial get you unless you're just trolling?

 

[untermensche]

Tell me how you get two completely different songs with as many instruments as you imagine are playing without also having completely different activity?

Same song (i.e. "specific activity"). Multiple instruments (i.e., "specific activity"). One conductor (i.e., "specific activity").

There is not one song.

There is one song when awake and another when asleep.

Different activity.

Conclusion: The waking mind is a product of specific activity.

But the brain can also have different activity.

So the mind is not the brain.

The brain is just a generator of the mind.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Tell me how you get two completely different songs with as many instruments as you imagine are playing without also having completely different activity?

Same song (i.e. "specific activity"). Multiple instruments (i.e., "specific activity"). One conductor (i.e., "specific activity").

There is not one song.

Ffs.

There is one song when awake and another when asleep.

And an evening at the New York Philharmonic will typically have six more songs too. One orchestra. Multiple instruments. One conductor. One hall. Multiple songs.

Clearer? Of course not.

The brain is just a generator of the mind.

Pointless repetition and revealing avoidance of everything I keep posting that directly contradicts your bizarre binary obsession.

If that is the case, then what are dreams and why does your dream "self" seem to be continuous to your waking "self" and how the fuck did it fly and have experiences that lasted months?

 

[untermensche]

There is one song when awake and another when asleep.

And an evening at the New York Philharmonic will typically have six more songs too. One orchestra. Multiple instruments. One conductor. One hall. Multiple songs.

? The song is the activity.

One brain with multiple activity states.

One of those activity states creates the conscious mind. One kind of brain activity creates the conscious mind.

The brain is just a generator of the mind.

Pointless repetition and revealing avoidance of everything I keep posting that directly contradicts your bizarre binary obsession.

The only rational conclusion if the mind is only there when specific activity is there.

If the brain and the mind were the same thing the mind and the activity state that creates the conscious mind would always be there.

 

[DBT]

I am a mind with the power to do things.

Only as far as the brain permits.

The brain being the power behind conscious thought, action and self. It is the brain that puts you to sleep at night, performs its work of consolidating memories, etc, while you the conscious self is kept dormant until the brain wakes you up in the morning.

You the conscious self being an interface used by the brain in order to interact with the external world, its objects and events.

If the brain is damaged, you are no more.

If memory function completely breaks down, you are no more, no coherent thoughts, no decisions, no self awareness.

Your mental existence rests on memory function. Memory function is the work of neural networks, a functional brain.

You have no case to make for your absurd notion of autonomy of mind.

 

[untermensche]

I am a mind with the power to do things.

Only as far as the brain permits.

Argument from ignorance.

You have no clue how a mind exists or what it is.

And your empty claim defies experience and reason.

Worthless claim, nothing more.

No matter how much lipstick you put on that pig it will never be more than a pig.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

You have no clue how a mind exists or what it is.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

the mind and the activity state that creates the conscious mind would always be there.

It is (until death). Again, stop with the binary thinking. And "activity state," as your previous graphic demonstrated, is a wavelength that is ever oscillating and changing in a dynamic manner. It is NOT some rigidly defined repetitive pattern that never alters.

It is more like a song, with component instrumental and vocal parts all working together in harmony (or not, as the case may be). Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

It's like you're saying, "Only the guitar is the song. Anything else is 'different activity'."

Well, yeah, no shit. The bass line is "different activity" than the rhythm guitar, which is "different activity" than the drums, which is "different activity" than the trumpet. and the song as a whole is "different activity" than its component parts, etc.

Just picture every musician station to be a neuron and every instrument to be a "different activity potential" and the simple action of each of the musician/neurons moving their bows or strumming their strings or hitting their drums, etc., in other words, firing all being orchestrated/managed by the Conductor who is using the orchestra to create a piece of never ending (until death) music that ebbs and flows and has moments of pianissimo and crescendo and fortissimo, etc., and all manner of wavelengths in between:



What you are referring to as "sleep" is pianissimo and "wake" is fortissimo or the like, but it's ALL one continuous never ending song, ultimately, regardless of the many times there may be musicians at rest or playing solos or all working together or some playing discordantly, etc.,etc., etc.

Iow, the conductor--the brain--starts conducting at birth and doesn't stop playing the song until brain death and the song has many "different activities" (even those nested within others), etc.

 

[untermensche]

You have no clue how a mind exists or what it is.

Only how it is experienced.

But the explanation of the mind has to explain the experience of willfully moving the arm as desired when desired.

Not pretend the experience is a delusion.

Not out of total ignorance claim the experience is a delusion.

 

[untermensche]

the mind and the activity state that creates the conscious mind would always be there.

It is (until death).

No it isn't.

It waxes and wanes an entire lifetime.

In the day a certain activity exists that creates a waking mind and at night a different activity exists that creates sleep.

It's like you're saying, "Only the guitar is the song. Anything else is 'different activity'."

No it's not.

It's like saying the guitar alone is one kind of activity and even if the song the guitar is playing does not change adding drums is completely different activity.

You have no argument. Playing the same song differently is different activity. And there certainly is nothing added by a huge picture of an orchestra.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It waxes and wanes an entire lifetime.

That's essentially exactly what I've been saying.

In the day a certain activity exists that creates a waking mind and at night a different activity exists that creates sleep.

Just like a conductor first does a piece by Beethoven and then next does one by Mozart. Same conductor. Same orchestra. Just a different song.

It's like saying the guitar alone is one kind of activity and even if the song the guitar is playing does not change adding drums is completely different activity.

There's that two-dimensional/binary thinking again.

Playing the same song differently is different activity.

You should read Flatland.

 

[untermensche]

That's essentially exactly what I've been saying.

No it's not.

Because the waxing is due to specific activity and the waning is due to different activity.

The waking mind is the result of specific activity not just the existence of a brain.

Just like a conductor first does a piece by Beethoven and then next does one by Mozart. Same conductor. Same orchestra. Just a different song.

Yes. Different activity gives you a different song.

It's the only way to get a different song.

Playing the same song differently is different activity.

You should read Flatland.

Dodge.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Because the waxing is due to specific activity and the waning is due to different activity.

Generated by the same brain. Brain is always primary. Brain generates ALL "different activity." That is inescapable.

Different activity gives you a different song.

Same conductor, same venue, same instruments, same musicians (aka, collectively "brain"), can play (i.e, generate) an infinite number of different songs (i.e., any "virtual state").