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The human mind

Because the waxing is due to specific activity and the waning is due to different activity.

Generated by the same brain. Brain is always primary. Brain generates ALL "different activity." That is inescapable.

The brain is generating the mind. Sure.

Specific activity in the brain generates a mind.

A mind that can experience. And a mind that tells the hand to pick up the cup when it experiences thirst.

Different activity gives you a different song.

Same conductor, same venue, same instruments, same musicians (aka, collectively "brain"), can play (i.e, generate) an infinite number of different songs (i.e., any "virtual state").

There is just one song that creates the conscious mind. One activity that results in the conscious mind.

And another song creates sleep.

And the brain plays theses same songs an entire lifetime.
 
I am a mind with the power to do things.

Only as far as the brain permits.

Argument from ignorance.

You have no clue how a mind exists or what it is.

And your empty claim defies experience and reason.

Worthless claim, nothing more.

No matter how much lipstick you put on that pig it will never be more than a pig.

What you say here describe your own position perfectly well....but it seems that without being aware of the irony, you project your position onto your opponent in an attempt to justify your unfounded claim of autonomy of mind. That being a totally inexplicable claim.

The fact is, according to the evidence, that any significant change to brain structure, chemical balance or electrical activity directly relates to the experience of conscious mind and self.
 
And a mind that tells the hand to pick up the cup when it experiences thirst.

I think I finally see the disconnect. You think the puppet is telling the puppetteer which string to pull, because in a post hoc, ergo propter hoc kind of way, from the puppet’s “perspective” (i.e., “experience”), it seems as if it is the one telling the puppeteer which string to pull.

So, here’s what’s going on. You have started your position with the notion that the brain generates/creates “experiences” for the “mind” (i.e., the “virtual” analogue of the self) to experience. Iow, the virtual “self” (or “mind”) is that which experiences.

Then you just sort of drop the “virtual” part and assume a “real boy” status of “The Mind” (or, rather, “The Self”) in between the premises.

So now Pinocchio the puppet has magically been transformed into Pinocchio the real boy and he has autonomy (from the brain) and he can “tell the hand to pick up that cup” etc.

Only the problem is, there never is any dropping of the virtural.

The self doesn’t tell the hand to pick up the cup and then the hand does so; the brain has used the self to go through every permutation of “hand picking up cup” in a nano-second—and in between “frames” of the animated self—and concluded that the hand should in fact pick up the cup.

So it sends a signal to the hand to pick up the cup, packages that “experience” into a packet and sends it to the self and ALL of that happens so fast—and primarily in between the frames of the animation of the self—that by the time the next few “frames” of the self are generated, it “experiences” the packet of “hand picking up cup” that the brain has created for it.

After all, “hand picking up cup” is itself an experience which the self could not have directly experienced, of course; the brain had to create that “experience packet” for it to experience, just as it does ALL experience packets.

Iow, at every step of the game, the self is never directly experiencing anything other than the “experience packets” the brain creates for it. And that, of course, would necessarily also include the “experience packet” of “instructing hand to pick up cup” and the “experience packet” of “autonomy from the brain” and the like.

So as I pointed out many many tl;dr’s ago, the brain simply imbues the analogue self with a sense of autonomy—and continuity—but in fact, it’s just being used to run trillions of scenario simulations in between each frame of its own continuous animation, but because the brain is the one that packages all of the self’s “experience packets,” it can’t ever know the difference.
 
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Delusional.

The self doesn’t tell the hand to pick up the cup and then the hand does so; the brain has used the self to go through every permutation of “hand picking up cup” in a nano-second—and in between “frames” of the animated self—and concluded that the hand should in fact pick up the cup.

An irrational story that was pulled from thin air. There is not one shred of evidence to demonstrate any of this.

It is the psychotic theory of the self.

The self experiences itself as the decider but really that is just a huge delusion created by the brain because............

There is no reason for it.

If the brain can do everything it wouldn't waste energy creating delusions. It wouldn't create minds.
 
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Delusional.

Nope! That's it. That is exactly what you are doing.

There is no reason for it.

Of course there is. As I've pointed out many times, its original use would have most likely been for strategic "virtual war gaming" prior to acting and borne out of the first time tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago our cowardly ancestor picked up a pebble and grunted, "This me" and then picked up a rock and grunted "This lion" and a handful of others pebbles and grunted, "This all you guys."

He places the various analogues into a circle he's drawn in the dirt--representing the terrain down below in the valley where the lion is lurking--and then takes everyone through how they will help him do what the previous five or six stronger, braver but dumber warriors all tried and failed to do, because they all just ran at the lion in brute force fashion one after another in exactly the same manner and all got brutally eviscerated for their muscles over brains approach.

Aka, survival. Crude analogues at first, of course, but there you have it all in its most nascent form. The "map" of the external world is the circle drawn in the dirt; the analogues of the self and the distinctions of each of the others in the tribe as well as the lion all established separate and unique identities among the group; the idea of moving the analogues around within the map to determine the best strategy for optimal success prior to acting in the "real" world, etc.

Everything "Grog" did on that fateful day is exactly what our brains do today--exactly what you and I (and others) have been talking about--only at a much faster rate today and better graphics. Grog was like, Pong; today we're more like one of these.

And the more we used this new adaptation of our already evolved problem solving/pattern recognizing ability (aka, abstract thought) in this manner, the better we got at it and the better defined the analogues (aka, the "self") became and so, over the thousands of years of honing and adapting and expanding this new tool it took us from a life expectancy of mere hours, to days, then weeks, then months, then years then all the way up to this point where the average life expectancy is almost up to a century.

And, of course, while that tool was being sharpened for use in our survival as a species--and we generated more and more leisure time as a result of less and less worry about being killed and eaten--we didn't need to use this adapted problem solving/pattern recognizing abstraction ability exclusively for survival and some started repurposing it for other things, such as art and philosophy and coming up with the zero, etc and, perhaps most importantly, social interaction.

Iow, it became an equally powerful tool for competing socially. Same tool, different song.

If the brain can do everything it wouldn't waste energy creating delusions.

It's not a "delusion." It's an analogue; a nano-second to nano-second real-time animation of a representation of ALL we are and have experienced and are in the moment experiencing--aka, our identity--that allows us to better interact and communicate and express and make sense of all the shit that we each individually live through. It's basically an animated diary. Just the "important" stuff, without all of the other noise the brain has to deal with.

Iow, it's the brain constantly processing and distilling the trillions of bits of information it receives on a constant basis from all of our sensory input devices from the external world--as well as all of the trillions of bits of information it receives on a constant basis from all of our sensory input devices from the internal world; i.e., the condition of the organs and the bodily functions, etc--into just the essential stream of information necessary for optimal social interaction/survival.

It wouldn't create minds.

Selves. Analogues. Identity. The ghost in the machine. The "I" in cogito, ergo sum. The homunculus.

Only it isn't actual, it's virtual; an algorithm or neuronal configuration, or however it is expressed and maintained. An abacus.

At least according to this overly simplistic quick google article:

Although it is impossible to precisely calculate, it is postulated that the human brain operates at 1 exaFLOP, which is equivalent to a billion billion calculations per second.
...
[T]the brain is both hardware and software, whereas there is an inherent [difference] in computers. The same interconnected areas, linked by billions of neurons and perhaps trillions of glial cells, can perceive, interpret, store, analyze, and redistribute at the same time. Computers, by their very definition and fundamental design, have some parts for processing and others for memory; the brain doesn’t make that separation, which makes it hugely efficient.

The same calculations and processes that might take a computer a few millions steps can be achieved by a few hundred neuron transmissions, requiring far less energy and performing at a far greater efficiency. The amount of energy required to power computations by the world’s fastest supercomputer would be enough to power a building; the human brain achieves the same processing speeds from the same energy as is required to charge a dim lightbulb. Biological processes have had billions of years to evolve perfect, efficient organs that far supersede technology, and we are beginning to reach those artificial “limitations”.

One of the things that truly sets brains apart, aside from their clear advantage in raw computing power, is the flexibility that it displays. Essentially, the human brain can rewire itself, a feat more formally known as neuroplasticity. Neurons are able to disconnect and reconnect with others, and even change in their basic features, something that a carefully constructed computer cannot do.

We see this amazing transformative feat in a wide variety of brain functions, such as the formations of memory, knowledge acquisition, physical development, and even recovery from brain damage. When the brain identifies a more efficient or effective way to compute and function, it can morph and alter its physical and neuronal structure, hence the term “plasticity“.

And as this Quora responder points out:

[The] biggest computer (“Summit”) has almost 2.3 million CPU cores, consumes 8.8 Megawatts of power and can perform 187,659,000,000,000,000 calculations per second.

The Human Brain contains hundreds of billions of Neurons, each with up to 10,000 interconnections to other Neurons - that’s over 1 QUADRILLION neural interconnections and dwarfs even the most powerful machine learning systems.

As noted above, one exaFLOP is a billion billion calculations per second (or one quintillion calculations per second). To put that into better perspective, the "Summit" computer at Oak Ridge just recently broke the exaFLOP scale and can operate at 1.88 exaFLOPs (or about two quintillion calculations per second). As their website notes:

In one hour on Summit, we can solve a problem that would take 30 years on a desktop computer.

The point being, of course, that all the world is in our brains and we are merely players.
 
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A computer is an extension of human minds. An extension of the human autonomous will.

And they do nothing they were not specifically designed to do.

And being inventions created with a specific goal in mind they are nothing like a brain.

And there is no reason to think they are analogous to a brain.
 
And there is no reason to think they are analogous to a brain.

Irrelevant side track to keep you from dealing with the fact that I finally cracked the fatal flaw in your position. The "experience packets" of "direct hand to pick up cup" and "hand picks up cup" must necessarily also be created by the brain for the "mind" to experience. You just sort of skipped that part.

Iow, it's never the "mind" that is causing any given actions; it is always the brain imbuing the "mind" with the experience that it's causing any given actions, but it never is. All brain; all nude; all night.

And the point of posting what I did about computers is not that it's analogous; it's to demonstrate the enormous calculating power, plasticity and manner of processing our brains possess, thereby demonstrating conclusively that the same brain can generate a nearly infinite number of different "songs."
 
You can come back to this planet any time now.

"experience packet"?

Please!

There is the phenomena of being able to experience something. Experience can only be one thing experiencing some other thing that is distinct from the thing experiencing thus able to be experienced.

An incredible phenomena that is not explained in any way by saying the magic words "flavor packet". I mean "experience packet".
 
You have no case to argue, Mr Untermensche, yet you continue to argue.


The Human Brain: Anatomy and Function

''The brain directs our body’s internal functions. It also integrates sensory impulses and information to form perceptions, thoughts, and memories. The brain gives us self-awareness and the ability to speak and move in the world. Its four major regions make this possible: The cerebrum, with its cerebral cortex, gives us conscious control of our actions. The diencephalon mediates sensations, manages emotions, and commands whole internal systems. The cerebellum adjusts body movements, speech coordination, and balance, while the brain stem relays signals from the spinal cord and directs basic internal functions and reflexes. ''

4. A Sorting Station: The Thalamus Mediates Sensory Data and Relays Signals to the Conscious Brain

The-Thalamus.jpg


The diencephalon is a region of the forebrain, connected to both the midbrain (part of the brain stem) and the cerebrum. The thalamus forms most of the diencephalon. It consists of two symmetrical egg-shaped masses, with neurons that radiate out through the cerebral cortex. Sensory data floods into the thalamus from the brain stem, along with emotional, visceral, and other information from different areas of the brain. The thalamus relays these messages to the appropriate areas of the cerebral cortex. It determines which signals require conscious awareness, and which should be available for learning and memory.''
 
You have no case to argue, Mr Untermensche, yet you continue to argue.

I am really just pointing out a lot of fanciful absurd nonsense that passes for "neuroscience" these days.

The timing of human guesses then claiming humans have no autonomy to time their guesses and other absolute nonsense like that.
 
timing control depends on what is going on. If it is controlled by neurobiological system mechanics then any presumed mind is irrelevant. On the other hand if every bit of information, including packets transported from one neuron to the next - such is a very unreasonable assertion since it would presume mind goes to quantum control which is counter to the mechanics presumed in that theory - then mind is everything. Yet, as you admit nothing, is known of such a mind, it is unreasonable to support such a notion just based on the illogic of the assertion.

Q E D
 
You cannot rationally have a study where the "data" in the study is human guesses about the timing of events and then somehow conclude from the study that humans don't have the autonomy to report their guesses.

It is absolute nonsense.
 
You have no case to argue, Mr Untermensche, yet you continue to argue.

I am really just pointing out a lot of fanciful absurd nonsense that passes for "neuroscience" these days.

No, you are not. You are making claims. Claims that you cannot support with research or evidence, yet you summarily reject all research and evidence that falsifies your claims

The timing of human guesses then claiming humans have no autonomy to time their guesses and other absolute nonsense like that.

No, the nonsense is your claim of autonomy of mind.

Timing is necessitated by physics.

Information input must precede acquisition by the senses, which precedes transmission throughout the system, which precedes information processing and conscious experience of a small portion of this information....consciousness necessarily being after the event.
 
You don't seem to comprehend.

The so-called "science" you use to make these claims uses human guesses as data.

If human guesses are objective data then humans must have the autonomy to make guesses.

If the guesses are just something forced by a brain they are meaningless.

Unless you know ahead of time that a brain would definitely make guesses about the timing of muscle contractions that are meaningful.
 
You are still making unsubstantiated claims. You still dismiss research and evidence without reason. Your motive being to maintain your own belief in autonomy of mind.
 
You defend bad research.

Research that uses guesses that have to be autonomous to matter to say autonomy is impossible.

It is emperor's new clothes stuff.

Absolute delusion.
 
Waste of time. Believe whatever takes your fancy. You typically ignore the undeniable physics of cognition, a process that undeniably progressive in time regardless of subject report.
 
You cannot rationally have a study where the "data" in the study is human guesses about the timing of events and then somehow conclude from the study that humans don't have the autonomy to report their guesses.

It is absolute nonsense.

Since the studies report guesses of event times, experimenters are concluding only that occurence of events reported are autonomous. Obviously reporting is under control of the observer. It's just that experimenters find the events they report are not.

Conflating event times with reporting what the observer believes are event times is absolute nonsense.
 
You cannot rationally have a study where the "data" in the study is human guesses about the timing of events and then somehow conclude from the study that humans don't have the autonomy to report their guesses.

It is absolute nonsense.

Since the studies report guesses of event times, experimenters are concluding only that occurence of events reported are autonomous. Obviously reporting is under control of the observer. It's just that experimenters find the events they report are not.

Conflating event times with reporting what the observer believes are event times is absolute nonsense.

The subject is asked to guess at what time they "began doing something undefined".

And this is called "objective data".

But for it to be data of any kind requires an autonomous mind that can make autonomous guesses about the timing of things undefined.

The whole charade is absolute nonsense.

Yet morons come away thinking autonomy of mind is in question.
 
The charade lies in persistently denying the fact that physics necessitates a progression of events, sensory input, distribution of information, processing, etc, in an order of progression over time, milliseconds, in relation to all cognitive functions, which of course includes conscious decisions.
 
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