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The human mind

If there were no dichotomy between the brain and the mind then there would be no sleep since there is only one brain.

If specific activity gives rise to the mind then you can have sleep. You can have the activity that results in a conscious mind and different activity that results in sleep.
 
For you to decide if something is true or false requires autonomy.

You keep saying that, but you have yet to even attempt to make an argument that thi is so.
We can take that little baby step initially to begin to spoon feed this to you?

Autonomy is needed to make decisions about ideas.

I see a lot of undefined or poorly defined terms, and not one logical or empirical argument.

That is undisputed.

Now I know ideas exist in my mind.

I have seen very little evidence of it. For the most part, you seem to just repeat, without end, variations of one of a dozen or so one-liners each on one of a handful of hobby-horse topics of yours, without ever coming up with new arguments, let alone actually respond to what other people have said. For all I can tell, you're randomly drawing your posts from a database.
 
It can only be one or the other.

Either a decision is autonomous or it is forced in some way.

If decisions about ideas are merely forced outcomes of the brain then they are meaningless.

Any objection to my ideas is meaningless.

If decisions can be made freely about what are good and bad ideas then there is a possibility the decision has meaning.
 
For you to decide if something is true or false requires autonomy.

FROM?

Autonomy is needed to make decisions about ideas.

That is undisputed.

No, that is meaningless drivel. Autonomy from what?

Now I know ideas exist in my mind.

You couldn't possibly know any such thing. You are, once again, merely asserting it without having first proved that any such notion as a "mind" even exists or in what capacity of form it could exist, etc.

It's all just argument from fiat over and over and over and over.

All you have to do is prove a brain can have an idea minus a mind to have a point.

So, we need to prove our claims, but you just get to petulantly assert them? Fuck off.
 
Autonomy means freedom from all things.

It means the ability to act without any constraint.

What constraint exists when deciding if some idea is true or false?

Please be specific.
 
Autonomy means freedom from all things.

Oh, good, I was afraid you'd be vague.

It means the ability to act without any constraint.

From? What is the agent that is preventing freedom or hindering autonomy in any of this drivel?

What constraint exists when deciding if some idea is true or false?

None that I am aware of. It's your sophistry. Assert away per usual. Let me guess, though first: it has something to do with your private, esoteric, vaguely defined and never evidenced concept of "mind" right?
 
We are done whether you can understand that or not.

:rolleyes:

Then it should be exceedingly easy for you to tell us all what constraints exist when deciding if some idea is true or false?

I have no constraints on my ability to decide.

My mind is entirely autonomous.

The genesis of human morality and law and systems of justice.
 
We are done whether you can understand that or not.

:rolleyes:

Then it should be exceedingly easy for you to tell us all what constraints exist when deciding if some idea is true or false?

I have no constraints on my ability to decide.

Neither do I.


Exhaustively define and prove existence or stfu.

You don't get to assert something into existence while at the same time insisting others must prove their claims. You know this. It's not something knew or egregious, so stop acting like a fucking child and actually prove your claims instead of constantly relying on idiotic arguments from incredulity.
 
I have no constraints on my ability to decide.

Neither do I.

Yes. The result of some activity can decide something.

But brain activity can create consciousness or sleep or a few things in between.

If consciousness only exists when specific activity exists then consciousness is definitely not the brain or the activity.

It is a phenomena that arises out of specific activity.

While different activity creates a different phenomena, sleep.


Exhaustively define and prove existence or stfu.

The human mind is an evolved decision making mechanism that is able to make decisions based on ideas held in mind.

If one has a mind they don't care if some other thing has doubts.

A person with a mind cannot rationally doubt they have one.
 
The result of some activity can decide something.

"Decide" is a verb that describes a process. The end of that process is what we then call a "decision." So the "result" of the activity of deciding results in a choice (or a "decision"). You know this, so why the fuck do you insist on trying to twist it around to serve your pet conclusion?

It's freshman bullshit.

But brain activity can create consciousness or sleep or a few things in between.

Brain activity creates everything you think, say, do...everything. Including whatever you think a "mind" is as you've elsewhere affirmed. Brain is all. And "brain" is just a nickname for multiple different functional organs that evidently interact with each other in highly complex ways to generate all of these processes.

Again, how does your denial of all of this serve anything at all? You seem intent on pretending that a "mind" is a supernatural entity or something; a magical physical thing that is somehow created by a brain like a physical thing (instead of something like an algorithm). Why? It literally gets you nowhere and requires you to abandon all rational process. You are simply assuming a conclusion and then demanding it be true.

You know shit doesn't work like that. It wouldn't matter if you were correct, it STILL does not work like that. You don't get to just demand something is. If that were the case, then it equally applies to anything I assert and you've fucked yourself.

If consciousness only exists when specific activity exists then consciousness is definitely not the brain or the activity.

Conditional. The problem is that you haven't established (a) that "consciousness ONLY exists when specific activity exists" so you've failed to establish a causal link to "consciousness is DEFINITELY not the brain or the activity." Consciousness IS the activity.

It is a phenomena that arises out of specific activity.

Prove that assertion. What is the "specific activity" you are referring to? How do you know that it is "specific" activity and not just the general activity of a brain?

These are not difficult questions to anticipate and account for UM. You SHOULD have exhaustive and demonstrable answers for all of these basic questions to your sophistry.

While different activity creates a different phenomena, sleep.

Prove that assertion. What evidence do you have that "different activity creates a different phenomena, sleep"?

You are asserting distinctness, not evidencing it or proving it and you have not established that there necessarily cannot be a sub-set of activities that operate within a parent or controlling activity that readily account for any such "different" activities without effecting the parent or controlling activity.

Iow, you are simply asserting a one-to-one correlation between "specific activity" and its outcome. Why? Your computer has one overall operating system, yet it can still run a whole shitload of discrete subroutines and compatible "software" in tandem with and "subservient to," if you will, that general overall OS. Even if you were to argue that, say, Microsoft Word is its own "different activity" it is STILL dependent upon the OS to operate properly and generate outcomes, etc. Iow, it is NOT its own separate and distinct activity; it operates in tandem with and reliant upon the OS.

So, again, unless the point of ALL of this bullshit is you finally springing the idea that a God exists or something, and that's "Mind," then there is absolutely nothing inherently controversial with the idea of an adaptive operating system that could either purpose or re-purpose certain sub-routines once a new utility presented itself.

If that is all you're interested in establishing--that a "mind" is a repurposed sub-routine--then I'm right there with you with my own speculation about an algorithm.

Exhaustively define and prove existence or stfu.
The human mind is an evolved decision making mechanism that is able to make decisions based on ideas held in mind.

That is not an exhaustive definition nor proof that it exists. Again, an "evolved decision making mechanism" is an algorithm, unless, once again, you are desperately trying to assert that a "mind" is a new organ or something, like the amygdala?

If one has a mind they don't care if some other thing has doubts.

Meaningless commentary having no substantive or probative value to the question put to you.

A person with a mind cannot rationally doubt they have one.

Petulant assertion that amounts to nothing more than an argument from incredulity.

So your exhaustive definition and proof amounted to nothing more than: the human mind is an evolved decision making mechanism algorithm.

And...?:confused2:
 
If we record different electrical wave patterns that is proof of different activity.

Petulant assertion that amounts to nothing more than an argument from incredulity.

In most places it is Philosophy 101.
 
If we record different electrical wave patterns that is proof of different activity.

Again, Microsoft Word operates on different operating systems. "Different" activity does not necessarily correlate to exclusive of all other activity.

Are you on the autism spectrum? Serious question. You keep exhibiting binary thinking.

Petulant assertion that amounts to nothing more than an argument from incredulity.

In most places it is Philosophy 101.

Yeah, well, again, freshman, ratchet your shit up.

I see no problem with the notion of "mechanism" equaling "algorithm." Why do you?
 
Again, Microsoft Word operates on different operating systems. "Different" activity does not necessarily correlate to exclusive of all other activity.

Bizarre non-sequitur from outer space.

Back on topic, when we look at the electrical patterns in the conscious brain and in the sleeping brain we observe they are different.

The only way to create different patterns is to have different activity. It is the same brain.

We know that it is not just activity in the brain that produces the conscious mind. It is a specific kind of activity.

And other kinds of activity are possible, like the activity that creates sleep.

In most places it is Philosophy 101.

Yeah, well, again, freshman, ratchet your shit up.

It is a truth one is supposed to learn as a freshmen. But some don't quite get it.

I see no problem with the notion of "mechanism" equaling "algorithm." Why do you?

An algorithm is a human made mechanism. It starts with a goal in mind and then the human makes plans to move towards the chosen goal.

In nature there are no goals. Nothing arises to meet some goal. If some thing arises randomly that by chance meets a goal then it might remain. And that which remains can be modified by chance over time.
 
You dismiss the fact that conscious brain activity is one and the same thing as conscious mind because it does not suit your beliefs. Your dismissal of fact is not surprising given that you cling to your own idea of autonomy of mind so strongly. However that doesn't change the fact that your analogy was flawed for the reason given, and that your belief in an autonomous mind is wrong.

You can't make the claim that the totally unknown activity of the brain that somehow creates a mind is merely one and the same as the phenomena of mind without knowing what the specific activity is and what the mind is.

You are making claims from total ignorance.

I doubt that you can see the irony of your remark.

You keep ignoring the fact that we do know something. We know that there is no mind/consciousness without brain activity.

We know that conscious experience/ mind is directly related to brain activity.

We know that disrupting this activity in specific ways has specific effects on mind/consciousness.

This is what you like to ignore even while claiming to know something that is not supported by what is known about brain function.
 
You dismiss the fact that conscious brain activity is one and the same thing as conscious mind because it does not suit your beliefs. Your dismissal of fact is not surprising given that you cling to your own idea of autonomy of mind so strongly. However that doesn't change the fact that your analogy was flawed for the reason given, and that your belief in an autonomous mind is wrong.

You can't make the claim that the totally unknown activity of the brain that somehow creates a mind is merely one and the same as the phenomena of mind without knowing what the specific activity is and what the mind is.

You are making claims from total ignorance.

I doubt that you can see the irony of your remark.

I'm not ignorant of what my mind is doing like some.

To have an opinion requires the autonomy to have one.

I have opinions I can defend with ideas.

Evidence I have freely chosen them and nothing has been forced.

A forced opinion can only be given. It can't be defended with ideas because the thing with the forced opinion has no idea why they have it. They did not create the opinion with the will.

I freely create my opinions. They are based on ideas that my mind can hold in their entirety and arrange at will. Nothing constrains my arranging of ideas in my mind. I am totally free to arrange them as I choose. I freely choose what ideas I will believe and which I will not.

The fact that I disagree with you shows I have freely chosen other ideas that are not the same ideas that you are trying to sell.

We know that there is no mind/consciousness without brain activity.

Not an argument.

The brain creates the autonomous mind.

So fucking what?

For the twentieth time, that is not an argument of any kind.

What a shame you seem totally incapable of learning that. It is a wonder you have ever learned anything the way you think.
 
koy said:
Again, Microsoft Word operates on different operating systems. "Different" activity does not necessarily correlate to exclusive of all other activity.

Bizarre non-sequitur from outer space.

First of all, that was an analogy, not a syllogism. Secondly, how is it non-sequitur? An Operating System is:

...the resource manager which transforms sectors, bytes, interrupts and ports into files, folders, processes, and the user-interfaces with which you can interact.
...
The Operating System runs the computer and the Applications Software. It makes sure that the Hardware and the Applications Software understand each other. This makes it the most important piece of software on the computer. The Operating System also comes with utilities. These are pieces of Applications Software that mostly deal with managing data.

Perfectly analogous. Your computer's operating system doesn't shut itself down when you open a program. Iow, "different" activity does not necessarily correlate to "exclusive of all other activity."

when we look at the electrical patterns in the conscious brain and in the sleeping brain we observe they are different.

And when you look at the patterns of humans in the day time and then when they're sleeping, we observe they are different too. Still humans, though.

The only way to create different patterns is to have different activity. It is the same brain.

I reiterate my serious question as to where you fall on the autism spectrum. You keep exhibiting binary/ two-dimensional thinking.

If you were to clock a computer's energy usage pattern with no programs running, you would observe a different pattern than if you were to open several programs at once and have them all performing various tasks. Still a computer, though. Still the same operating system.

We know that it is not just activity in the brain that produces the conscious mind.

We do? Link please.

It is a specific kind of activity.

Equivocation. Once again, Microsoft Word may have a "specific kind of activity" but it still can't function without another "specific kind of activity" from the Operating System that is always running as a base system that makes all other routines/programs/sub-routines possible.

And, of course, we aren't limited to just one OS. There could very well be a "consciousness OS" that is different than the "sleep OS,"both of which are "subordinate" to the base "life OS" or the like.

Think in terms of Venn diagrams if that helps you break out of your binary.

I see no problem with the notion of "mechanism" equaling "algorithm." Why do you?

An algorithm is a human made mechanism.

So, too would be a "mind." Wait, so are you finally revealing that what's behind all of your dogmatic assertions is something "super" human?

It starts with a goal in mind and then the human makes plans to move towards the chosen goal using the "mind" algorithm

Fify.

In nature there are no goals.

Nonsense. Aside from the primary goal of ALL life--optimal survival--there are any number of goals, such as "get that low hanging fruit" or "find shelter" or "hunt prey" or "use this tool for that end" etc. We see this again and again and again, with all manner of creatures, clearly plotting out means to achieve said goals, no matter how basic.



Plus, WE are "in nature" and we certainly have goals, so, again, unless you're finally going to reveal that you've been laying the groundwork to assert some sort of supernatural explanation for "mind" then human goal seeking alone disproves your assertion.
 
First of all, that was an analogy, not a syllogism. Secondly, how is it non-sequitur? An Operating System is:

...the resource manager which transforms sectors, bytes, interrupts and ports into files, folders, processes, and the user-interfaces with which you can interact.
...
The Operating System runs the computer and the Applications Software. It makes sure that the Hardware and the Applications Software understand each other. This makes it the most important piece of software on the computer. The Operating System also comes with utilities. These are pieces of Applications Software that mostly deal with managing data.

Perfectly analogous. Your computer's operating system doesn't shut itself down when you open a program. Iow, "different" activity does not necessarily correlate to "exclusive of all other activity."

It does if you are talking about electrical activity across the ENTIRE brain.

If wave activity, shape, frequency, pattern, across the entire brain changes that means the activity producing those waves has changed.

All you are giving is a possible way, with no supporting evidence, how the activity could change, not an argument showing that it has not changed.

when we look at the electrical patterns in the conscious brain and in the sleeping brain we observe they are different.
And when you look at the patterns of humans in the day time and then when they're sleeping, we observe they are different too. Still humans, though.

Non-argument.

Yes, the change in activity produces a change in behavior.

That is the whole point.

The capacity for conscious thought and experience is related to specific activity, not just the brain.

The brain is not the mind. It cannot rationally be the mind since the mind is also dependent on specific activity which can and does change daily.

The only way to create different patterns is to have different activity. It is the same brain.
I reiterate my serious question as to where you fall on the autism spectrum. You keep exhibiting binary/ two-dimensional thinking.

It is because there are two stereotypical states created by brain activity.

The waking state and the sleeping state. There are states in between but they are more idiosyncratic.

Why does talking about two things where there are two stereotypical states bother you so much?

A fear of the number two?

If you were to clock a computer's energy usage pattern with no programs running, you would observe a different pattern than if you were to open several programs at once and have them all performing various tasks. Still a computer, though. Still the same operating system.

The brain clocks equally in sleep and in wakefulness.

The speed of transmission is based on properties of cells, not some external program.

And the sleeping brain is very activity. It has a lot of activity. there is no way to say it has less activity than when the person is conscious.

It has different activity which produces evidence it is different.

We know that it is not just activity in the brain that produces the conscious mind.

We do? Link please.

By rational conclusion.

It is specific brain activity, not just brain activity.

It is a specific kind of activity.

Equivocation. Once again, Microsoft Word may have a "specific kind of activity" but it still can't function without another "specific kind of activity" from the Operating System that is always running as a base system that makes all other routines/programs/sub-routines possible.

Software has no activity.

It controls activity.

The brain must have controls of activity but how it is done is not known.

But the controls would be distinct from the activity.

I see no problem with the notion of "mechanism" equaling "algorithm." Why do you?

An algorithm is a human made mechanism.

So, too would be a "mind." Wait, so are you finally revealing that what's behind all of your dogmatic assertions is something "super" human?

The mind arose via evolution. It did not arise because some other mind preordained it's existence.

What are you now? A born again Christian talking about the mind of the creator?

In nature there are no goals.

Nonsense. Aside from the primary goal of ALL life--optimal survival

You conflate individual goals of individual organisms with some overall goal of evolution.

The point is evolution has no goals.

The brain was not pushed towards some preordained goal of achieving human consciousness.

No reason to think there are any algorithms which are created with a specific goal in mind.
 
It does if you are talking about electrical activity across the ENTIRE brain.

You really have a weird issue with categories and sub-categories.

If wave activity, shape, frequency, pattern, across the entire brain changes that means the activity producing those waves has changed.

Even if that were an accurate account of what happens "across the entire brain," that does not necessarily mean that the changes do no also entail or otherwise account for a "meta" (or merely separate) form of baseline activity. Let's pretend for the sake of argument that a literal bass line--as in the musical instrument--i.e., repeatedly hitting the "E" note on a bass clef and that note hit consistently represents the operating system's activity.

Then to fill out the rest of the entire orchestra, you've got all manner of different instruments all paying different notes in different ever changing ways. Horns, violins, flutes, cymbals, etc., etc., etc. But no matter where the other instruments go in the symphony, there is always that consistent E bass note being played.

Or not, as this interesting study explores: Does the brain have a baseline? (the conclusion is yes, but that it may not be correlated to physical rest).

All you are giving is a possible way, with no supporting evidence, how the activity could change, not an argument showing that it has not changed.

Considering you haven't ever given jack shit in the form of supporting evidence (and I just did above), you can forever cease with that evasion. Again, even if it does change as a part of a different whole--just like changing a song--that does not necessarily mean that there isn't still an "E" note being played or that the "notes" themselves are all that is necessary.

There is, after all, the idea of neuroplasticity the seems to evidence a highly adaptive component to our brain that allows it to take functions normally handled by one organ/section and "assign" them to another when that original organ/section is damaged and the like.

In short, there are all kinds of ways to account for the notion of categories and sub-categories; operating systems and subroutines/applications/programs/utilities and the like and that's not even getting into the notion that algorithm X can incorporate certain components of another algorithm Y within it, such that the new algorithm Z encompasses X and Y.

you said:
me said:
you said:
when we look at the electrical patterns in the conscious brain and in the sleeping brain we observe they are different.
And when you look at the patterns of humans in the day time and then when they're sleeping, we observe they are different too. Still humans, though.
Non-argument.
Refutation of your argument in that, just because we see differences in patterns does not necessarily mean those differences are exhaustive or even substantive to the whole. Again, that's binary thinking.

Yes, the change in activity produces a change in behavior.

That is the whole point.

Again, just because you are writing a novel in Microsoft Word, that activity does not necessarily have any impact on how the Operating System works. YOUR argument is binary; ALL activity performs just one function so if you change that activity in any fashion, function one necessarily completely ceases. That's simply not the case in so many different ways the brain boggles.

The capacity for conscious thought and experience is related to specific activity

Again, you don't know that, but even if it were the case that only specific activity rigidly defined the "capacity for conscious thought and experience" how does that necessarily mean that there can be no other activity that maintains other functions? Stop with the binary. It's clearly not a necessarily either/or proposition.

The brain is not the mind.

Nothing is "the" mind. If there a "the" mind then it would be like the amygdala or the neocortex.

At best, the brain generates "mind" (i.e., a virtual, phenomenal, condition)

It cannot rationally be the mind

Equivocation. You have--once again--gone from a verb (a state of action/process) to its noun. Stop it. There is no justification for that. The brain generates "mind" not the Brain created the Mind.

since the mind is also dependent on specific activity which can and does change daily.

Like a novel being written in Microsoft Word...

you said:
me said:
I reiterate my serious question as to where you fall on the autism spectrum. You keep exhibiting binary/ two-dimensional thinking.
It is because there are two stereotypical states created by brain activity. The waking state and the sleeping state. There are states in between but they are more idiosyncratic. Why does talking about two things where there are two stereotypical states bother you so much?

Because it is literally binary thinking and doesn't take into account the simple notion that there may be many different ways in which it need not be.

If you were to clock a computer's energy usage pattern with no programs running, you would observe a different pattern than if you were to open several programs at once and have them all performing various tasks. Still a computer, though. Still the same operating system.

The brain clocks equally in sleep and in wakefulness.

Your own statement above disproves that: "there are two stereotypical states created by brain activity."

The speed of transmission is based on properties of cells, not some external program.

The notion of a program was analogy, not literal. Regardless, we're not talking about the speed of transmission. Again this is binary thinking. You seem incapable--or merely petulant--of understanding how a system (or systems) can operate their own functions that in turn include sub-functions. Or even the more basic notion of a dynamic algorithm that can account for the entirety of all such functions, including its own.

Iow, turn it on (i.e., give birth) and it dynamically expands with each new experience until it is turned off (ie., brain death).

And the sleeping brain is very activity. It has a lot of activity. there is no way to say it has less activity than when the person is conscious.

It's not necessarily a matter of "less" activity. Again with the fucking binary thinking. I encourage you to read the study I posted. It may (burt likely won't) give you better insights.

It has different activity which produces evidence it is different.

Binary.

you said:
me said:
you said:
We know that it is not just activity in the brain that produces the conscious mind.
We do? Link please.

By rational conclusion.

So, you mean, via inference and not that there is any physical evidence of any of this.

It is specific brain activity, not just brain activity.

Yeah, again that's like saying, "It's 4/4 drum beat, not just playing the drums." Which is fine, but that, again, does not just axiomatically mean the rest of the band isn't playing their own instruments in their own way in tandem with the 4/4 beat.

If you just played a 4/4 beat, that would be an example of "specific activity" right? If you then added other instruments playing along to the 4/4 beat, it would be a different set of "specific activity," but it would still contain the "specific activity" of the 4/4 beat yes?

you said:
me said:
you said:
It is a specific kind of activity.
Equivocation. Once again, Microsoft Word may have a "specific kind of activity" but it still can't function without another "specific kind of activity" from the Operating System that is always running as a base system that makes all other routines/programs/sub-routines possible.

Software has no activity.

False. Just opening up the program is a matter of activity, let alone the activity that occurs in its use.

It controls activity.

Equivocation.

The brain must have controls of activity but how it is done is not known.

But the controls would be distinct from the activity.

Equivocation again.

In nature there are no goals.
...
You conflate individual goals of individual organisms with some overall goal of evolution.

The point is evolution has no goals.

Then you should have said that instead of "In nature there are no goals" as that is false. We see goal seeking all the time in nature.

he brain was not pushed towards some preordained goal of achieving human consciousness.

Agreed. It most likely first happened as a result of creating an analogue--i.e., picking up a rock--and intimating to other hunters that the pebble represented the individual holding it, who then placed it in the dirt and then picked up another rock to represent a threat (like a lion or the like) and how the individual then intimated how the other hunters would triangulate on the threat by drawing a diagram in the dirt. Or something to that effect.

Iow, it started with the notion of representational analogues for use in strategic role playing to achieve optimal courses of action prior to acting.

No reason to think there are any algorithms which are created with a specific goal in mind.

Now you have at least one. Survival of the cowardly. The individual in the above scenario likely watched the five previous--and therefore strongest warriors of the tribe--all taking the same approach to trying to kill the lion only to be killed themselves. Hence the idea of picking up a rock to represent him and what he wanted the others to help him with instead of him just walking into be killed like the previous less intelligent warriors.
 
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