The Illusion of Moral Decline

[SLD]

so Nature has published a serious analysis of people’s perceptions of moral decline. It seems that about 77 - 78% of people think that we are undergoing moral decline, and that this perception has persisted for decades. It’s the same percentage in 1949 and 2019. I believe that the emperor Hadrian made a similar comment to Pliny the younger.

The full article is available here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06137-x

An abridged version though is here: https://www.experimental-history.com/p/the-illusion-of-moral-decline

Of course morality has declined if you define it as society’s acceptance of human sexual behavior. We no longer care that much if people have pre marital sex, or are gay. And gay relationships are legal now, heaven forbid! There’s also less church attendance than before. maybe that’s what people mean though.

what the study though tried to look at was generally how well people treated each other, I.e. kindness, respect, etc. Of course there is no such general decline. And since a lot of violent crime has declined, we are actually treating each other better. Even violent war has declined over the decades, Putin not withstanding.

There are lots of interesting tidbits In there. I didn’t realize in the prisoner’s dilemma game, cooperation has actually increased over time by 10%.

I once had a fascinating discussion with my Uncle about this issue. He went to the University of Alabama in the 30’s. His description of fraternity life was no different than what I observed 50+ years later. They were all chasing tail, but said they wanted to marry a virgin. I had heard the exact sentiment in 1991. One of his good friends was shacking up with his girlfriend. He was stunned when he heard they were engaged. Then it hit him. He was a hypocrite. Shortly after that he proposed to his girlfriend and they stayed married for 40 years til she died.

I just wish I could have asked my grandfather about fraternity life when he graduated from there in 1908!

 

[steve_bank]

All depends how you define morality and a helthy society.

What I see in Seattle everyday and in the news nationally is a moral decline.

Basic values of homesty and decency in daily lives.

Alcohol and drug addicted kids, kids overdosng on fentanyl.

Around here teen armed robbery is on the rise, across demographics.

To me it is obvious we are in a decline, adding I am nowhere close to a right wing theist.

Hyper 24/7 decadence leading to rising health probes. What were once considered maladies of older people is ow pushing down into teens. Obesity, diabetes, stroke, and heart disease.

Rising mental health problems in kids and 29 settings.

The fact that Trump has a good chance of getting reelectd s a good indicator.

 

[bilby]

Life was always better back when I was young, strong, and hopeful. And that's true for all values of "I", throughout the entirety of human history.

It's an inevitable consequence of people's bias towards the personal.

 

[steve_bank]

I just came in from a walk. There were gunshots within a few hundred feet. Others heard it.

This kind of grwing violence anda lack of empathy for fellow human beings if not a decline in morality then what shoud I call it?

 

[bilby]

I just came in from a walk. There were gunshots within a few hundred feet. Others heard it.

This kind of grwing violence anda lack of empathy for fellow human beings if not a decline in morality then what shoud I call it?

Normal for Second Amendment land?

Violence today isn't evidence of growing violence, unless you have evidence that such an occurrence was less common in the past.

 

[lostone]

so Nature has published a serious analysis of people’s perceptions of moral decline. It seems that about 77 - 78% of people think that we are undergoing moral decline, and that this perception has persisted for decades. It’s the same percentage in 1949 and 2019. I believe that the emperor Hadrian made a similar comment to Pliny the younger.

The full article is available here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06137-x

An abridged version though is here: https://www.experimental-history.com/p/the-illusion-of-moral-decline

Of course morality has declined if you define it as society’s acceptance of human sexual behavior. We no longer care that much if people have pre marital sex, or are gay. And gay relationships are legal now, heaven forbid! There’s also less church attendance than before. maybe that’s what people mean though.

what the study though tried to look at was generally how well people treated each other, I.e. kindness, respect, etc. Of course there is no such general decline. And since a lot of violent crime has declined, we are actually treating each other better. Even violent war has declined over the decades, Putin not withstanding.

There are lots of interesting tidbits In there. I didn’t realize in the prisoner’s dilemma game, cooperation has actually increased over time by 10%.

I once had a fascinating discussion with my Uncle about this issue. He went to the University of Alabama in the 30’s. His description of fraternity life was no different than what I observed 50+ years later. They were all chasing tail, but said they wanted to marry a virgin. I had heard the exact sentiment in 1991. One of his good friends was shacking up with his girlfriend. He was stunned when he heard they were engaged. Then it hit him. He was a hypocrite. Shortly after that he proposed to his girlfriend and they stayed married for 40 years til she died.

I just wish I could have asked my grandfather about fraternity life when he graduated from there in 1908!

A hundred or so years earlier, Augustus was also worried about moral decline. Even back to Cato the Elder. Humans have always claimed that morals are declining.

 

[SLD]

I just came in from a walk. There were gunshots within a few hundred feet. Others heard it.

This kind of grwing violence anda lack of empathy for fellow human beings if not a decline in morality then what shoud I call it?

You obviously didn’t read the article. Your observations are crap. Violent crime is down significantly over the last few decades.

Nor is there any evidence that people are more dishonest.

 

[Tigers!]

I just came in from a walk. There were gunshots within a few hundred feet. Others heard it.

This kind of grwing violence anda lack of empathy for fellow human beings if not a decline in morality then what shoud I call it?

You obviously didn’t read the article. Your observations are crap. Violent crime is down significantly over the last few decades.

Why there is so much worry in the USA about mass shootings?
Are there more mass shootings today then say 1990s?
If there are more mass shootings today then that is evidence of a growing problem in at least one category.

Nor is there any evidence that people are more dishonest.

You are indeed fortunate to live in such a fine area.

 

[Tigers!]

so Nature has published a serious analysis of people’s perceptions of moral decline. It seems that about 77 - 78% of people think that we are undergoing moral decline, and that this perception has persisted for decades. It’s the same percentage in 1949 and 2019. I believe that the emperor Hadrian made a similar comment to Pliny the younger.

The full article is available here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06137-x

An abridged version though is here: https://www.experimental-history.com/p/the-illusion-of-moral-decline

Of course morality has declined if you define it as society’s acceptance of human sexual behavior. We no longer care that much if people have pre marital sex, or are gay. And gay relationships are legal now, heaven forbid! There’s also less church attendance than before. maybe that’s what people mean though.

what the study though tried to look at was generally how well people treated each other, I.e. kindness, respect, etc. Of course there is no such general decline. And since a lot of violent crime has declined, we are actually treating each other better. Even violent war has declined over the decades, Putin not withstanding.

There are lots of interesting tidbits In there. I didn’t realize in the prisoner’s dilemma game, cooperation has actually increased over time by 10%.

I once had a fascinating discussion with my Uncle about this issue. He went to the University of Alabama in the 30’s. His description of fraternity life was no different than what I observed 50+ years later. They were all chasing tail, but said they wanted to marry a virgin. I had heard the exact sentiment in 1991. One of his good friends was shacking up with his girlfriend. He was stunned when he heard they were engaged. Then it hit him. He was a hypocrite. Shortly after that he proposed to his girlfriend and they stayed married for 40 years til she died.

I just wish I could have asked my grandfather about fraternity life when he graduated from there in 1908!

A hundred or so years earlier, Augustus was also worried about moral decline. Even back to Cato the Elder. Humans have always claimed that morals are declining.

Perhaps they were correct.

 

[SLD]

so Nature has published a serious analysis of people’s perceptions of moral decline. It seems that about 77 - 78% of people think that we are undergoing moral decline, and that this perception has persisted for decades. It’s the same percentage in 1949 and 2019. I believe that the emperor Hadrian made a similar comment to Pliny the younger.

The full article is available here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06137-x

An abridged version though is here: https://www.experimental-history.com/p/the-illusion-of-moral-decline

Of course morality has declined if you define it as society’s acceptance of human sexual behavior. We no longer care that much if people have pre marital sex, or are gay. And gay relationships are legal now, heaven forbid! There’s also less church attendance than before. maybe that’s what people mean though.

what the study though tried to look at was generally how well people treated each other, I.e. kindness, respect, etc. Of course there is no such general decline. And since a lot of violent crime has declined, we are actually treating each other better. Even violent war has declined over the decades, Putin not withstanding.

There are lots of interesting tidbits In there. I didn’t realize in the prisoner’s dilemma game, cooperation has actually increased over time by 10%.

I once had a fascinating discussion with my Uncle about this issue. He went to the University of Alabama in the 30’s. His description of fraternity life was no different than what I observed 50+ years later. They were all chasing tail, but said they wanted to marry a virgin. I had heard the exact sentiment in 1991. One of his good friends was shacking up with his girlfriend. He was stunned when he heard they were engaged. Then it hit him. He was a hypocrite. Shortly after that he proposed to his girlfriend and they stayed married for 40 years til she died.

I just wish I could have asked my grandfather about fraternity life when he graduated from there in 1908!

A hundred or so years earlier, Augustus was also worried about moral decline. Even back to Cato the Elder. Humans have always claimed that morals are declining.

Perhaps they were correct.

Did you read the article? If they were correct, prove it. was there some genetic shift that led to moral decline? Do you have any evidence of moral decline?

 

[bilby]

Why there is so much worry in the USA about mass shootings?

Because mass shootings are generally considered to be a "bad thing". People worry about bad things.

Are there more mass shootings today then say 1990s?

Not particularly, but there aren't fewer, either. When you have a lot of a bad thing, and you can't seem to make it go away like everyone else has, then it's fair to conclude that you have a problem.

The OP article is more focused on general day-to-day morality, than on extreme outcomes such as robberies and murders. Are people ruder, less helpful, more inclined to lie or cheat?

Mass shooters, even in the USA, represent a minuscule fraction of the population; People who drop litter, or ignore the plight of an old lady struggling with some heavy shopping, are a much larger fraction of the total. The question is, are such minor immoralities on the rise?

Spoiler: No.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

The thing about "moral decline" is that it is not a simple yes/no situation. The general trend over the past two hundred or more years has been for a rise in "morality" as a general trend, but one gets local exceptions. For instance, in Germany from 1933 to 1945 there was a moral decline; in the present there is a moral decline (and ethics decline) in the US Republican Party and amongst many of its supporters.

 

[Tigers!]

I just came in from a walk. There were gunshots within a few hundred feet. Others heard it.

This kind of grwing violence anda lack of empathy for fellow human beings if not a decline in morality then what shoud I call it?

You obviously didn’t read the article. Your observations are crap. Violent crime is down significantly over the last few decades.

Nor is there any evidence that people are more dishonest.

Don't worry Steve.
You didn't hear those gunshots. You only imaged you did. Get your ears checked.
There are plenty on these fora who would be happy to give you a psycho-analysis of your illusions of hearing gunshots.
</sarcasm>

 

[TV and credit cards]

Ask the audience, Has morality declined over your lifetime? Roughly 80% of the people raise their hand. Second question, Has your morality declined over your lifetime? No one raises their hand. Has it increased?
Guess you just happened into an audience full of really nice people.


I think what declines over one’s lifetime is naïveté.

 

[bilby]

For instance, in Germany from 1933 to 1945 there was a moral decline

Not really. I mean, obviously there was amongst supporters of a particular political party, but even there it was a very targeted and specific moral failure, and one which its adherents believed to be a moral good.

Most Germans weren't Nazis, and most Nazis would still have given up their seat on the tram to an old lady (as long as she didn't look Jewish).

The caricature of Nazis as utterly depraved and universally evil is something of a double edged sword - it was useful in inspiring a total war effort in the 1940s, but nowadays it's become easy for people to support fascist and Nazi ideals, secure in the (false) belief that as they are basically decent and kind, they therefore cannot be fascists or Nazis.

If you always buy your mother flowers on her birthday, give up your seat on the bus to pregnant ladies, say "please" and "thank you", and tip your waitress generously, it's easy to fail to recognise your support for politicians who support locking children up in concentration camps as symptomatic of fascism. No, you're a good (and slightly boring) middle class guy, who just has a firm belief in the importance of the rule of law and a strong police force to prevent the niggers inner city residents from getting too uppity violently criminal.

Nazis aren't monsters. Nazis are boring. That's what makes them so dangerous.

 

[lostone]

For instance, in Germany from 1933 to 1945 there was a moral decline

Not really. I mean, obviously there was amongst supporters of a particular political party, but even there it was a very targeted and specific moral failure, and one which its adherents believed to be a moral good.

Most Germans weren't Nazis, and most Nazis would still have given up their seat on the tram to an old lady (as long as she didn't look Jewish).

The caricature of Nazis as utterly depraved and universally evil is something of a double edged sword - it was useful in inspiring a total war effort in the 1940s, but nowadays it's become easy for people to support fascist and Nazi ideals, secure in the (false) belief that as they are basically decent and kind, they therefore cannot be fascists or Nazis.

If you always buy your mother flowers on her birthday, give up your seat on the bus to pregnant ladies, say "please" and "thank you", and tip your waitress generously, it's easy to fail to recognise your support for politicians who support locking children up in concentration camps as symptomatic of fascism. No, you're a good (and slightly boring) middle class guy, who just has a firm belief in the importance of the rule of law and a strong police force to prevent the niggers inner city residents from getting too uppity violently criminal.

Nazis aren't monsters. Nazis are boring. That's what makes them so dangerous.

Hannah Arendt got that right. Her phrase the 'banality of evil', based on the character of Adolf Eichmann, said as much quite clearly.

 

[bilby]

And, of course, we must always remember that no matter how kind we might be, German children are kinder.

 

[Bronzeage]

In the US, there is a marked decline in morality, honesty, and other related civic virtues, but it's mostly confined to Republicans.

 

[James Brown]

 Kids_these_days

"Kids these days" is the belief that the present generation of young people is inferior or deficient compared to previous generations. A study by John Protzko and Jonathan W. Schooler has found that such beliefs have been reported since 624 BCE.[1]

 

[steve_bank]

That is a tired cliche.

Anyone who thinks there has not been a cultural turn to the worse and has lived in prior times is either just pain ignorant with head in the hole, or is not paying attention.

Young people today do not know what it was like before the rising level of violence and growing mental and physical health problems. Before the normalization of drugs.