THE INCREDIBLE WHITENESS OF BEING

[Toni]

You may have outdone yourself this time Athena. Let me just deal with your OP (and briefly at that) rather than wade through the morass of overtly racist screeds like "What White People Fear" or quoting such illustrious publications as "Counterunch".

It is always beneficial when having serious discussions to have experts weigh in. We are fortunate, indeed, Derec, to have someone who in fact has made racism his life's work to guide us!

 

[dismal]

You think you're not represented. But you are one of the white people.

The "blinds you" thing at work, I guess.

Nope. The OP may refer to you, but it doesn't refer to me, other than perhaps obliquely. Reading for Comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. Try again.

Sure it does. You are one of the White people.

You do not have a "get out of White free card".

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Nope. The OP may refer to you, but it doesn't refer to me, other than perhaps obliquely. Reading for Comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. Try again.

Sure it does. You are one of the White people.

You do not have a "get out of White free card".

Davka is a white racist blind to his own racist mind. You see, part of racism is saying you are not racist. See how wonderfully this works?

[/race card playa]

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Indeed. And Horray for another random hate white people thread from the lady that declares only white people can be racist. The irony in this one is so tasty.

So, does whiteness somehow magically make somebody a US conservative rather than liberal? Is it race that makes them oppose wage protections, universal health care, banking regulations, etc? They do it because they are racists who want to keep the black man down? Or perhaps they do it because they subscribe to US conservative ideology, side with the rich against the poor, and oppose socialism? Last I looked there were plenty of white liberals who take the exact opposite positions. Did the whiteness fail in their cases? And is it impossible to be a white racist who pushes for socialism, universal health care, banking regulations, wage protections, etc?

I don't think in all my time reading this forum that I have ever seen such a silly case of playing the race card.

The circumstances of your birth do indeed inform your world view. How much depends upon many things, including choices you make in your education, your associations, your work, etc.

It is not surprising that people who never actually encounter someone who looks/thinks/has a different experience of the world than themselves and whose significant experience with 'other' is what they see on sensationalized news have a fairly narrow world view and don't really understand that the world looks different if you have a different accent, a different color of skin, a different hair texture and more importantly: the world treats you differently. For example, a lotta white people don't realize that black people need sunscreen, that black people can get skin cancer and die from it, too.

It's not always malevolently intended. A lot of medical standards were based on what is normal for medical students: i.e. white males because those were the study subjects most easily available. Women still struggle to get doctors to recognize that heart attacks present with different symptoms than for males. And so on. It just relies on a narrow point of view. In some cases, pin point narrow.

Sure. But that has nothing at all to do with the OP. She is saying white people oppose bank regulation, universal health care, wage protections, and take other conservative US positions because of how they see black people, completely disregarding the myriad of reasons people fall into this ideology. She has blinders on and can only see racism. She is more racist than the people she decries.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Indeed. And Horray for another random hate white people thread from the lady that declares only white people can be racist. The irony in this one is so tasty.

So, does whiteness somehow magically make somebody a US conservative rather than liberal? Is it race that makes them oppose wage protections, universal health care, banking regulations, etc? They do it because they are racists who want to keep the black man down? Or perhaps they do it because they subscribe to US conservative ideology, side with the rich against the poor, and oppose socialism? Last I looked there were plenty of white liberals who take the exact opposite positions. Did the whiteness fail in their cases? And is it impossible to be a white racist who pushes for socialism, universal health care, banking regulations, wage protections, etc?

I don't think in all my time reading this forum that I have ever seen such a silly case of playing the race card.

The circumstances of your birth do indeed inform your world view. How much depends upon many things, including choices you make in your education, your associations, your work, etc.

It is not surprising that people who never actually encounter someone who looks/thinks/has a different experience of the world than themselves and whose significant experience with 'other' is what they see on sensationalized news have a fairly narrow world view and don't really understand that the world looks different if you have a different accent, a different color of skin, a different hair texture and more importantly: the world treats you differently. For example, a lotta white people don't realize that black people need sunscreen, that black people can get skin cancer and die from it, too.

It's not always malevolently intended. A lot of medical standards were based on what is normal for medical students: i.e. white males because those were the study subjects most easily available. Women still struggle to get doctors to recognize that heart attacks present with different symptoms than for males. And so on. It just relies on a narrow point of view. In some cases, pin point narrow.

Sure, and had Athena said what you said, I wouldn't be rolling my eyes at her. But that isn't what she said. She said whiteness is what makes people oppose universal health care, banking regulations, and wage protections. She said white people take positions against these things because they want to keep the black man down. She has powerful blinders on and can apparently see racism and only racism, everywhere, and only in white people. It has become comical at this point.

Then you are either not reading with comprehension or skipping many threads and posts.

The one a good while ago about candies was pretty funny, but I think this one is even sillier. I have to wonder what is next. Did white Americans support the Space Program in the 70s because they wanted to get away from black people?

 

[Davka]

Sure. But that has nothing at all to do with the OP. She is saying white people oppose bank regulation, universal health care, wage protections, and take other conservative US positions because of how they see black people, completely disregarding the myriad of reasons people fall into this ideology. She has blinders on and can only see racism. She is more racist than the people she decries.

It's amazing how people who have been reading Athena's posts for years are completely unable to apply context to the OP. It's almost as if they want to see her as a caricature of the Angry Black Woman, sort of like that GIF meme of the little kid saying "that's racist!"

See, I read the OP and right off the bat, I see this line: "You know, whiteness is a powerful thing. So powerful in fact that it has managed to make slaves out of white people so desperate to hold onto a myth a supremacy that they would rather share whiteness with the white man kicking them in the ass day in and day out, than share better wages, better working conditions, and better benefits with someone who looks like me." Knowing Athena, I read that as "So powerful in fact that it has managed to make slaves out of (white people so desperate to hold onto a myth of supremacy) that they would rather..." In other words, she's saying that those white people who are desperate to hold onto the myth of white supremacy would rather bend over and get shafted by the white conservative overlords than see a black person being treated decently.

This reading is reinforced in the very next sentence, "Poor and working class white folk all over this country defend austere economic policies and vote for representatives who actively seek to remove any and all worker and wage protections on the books..."

Again, with my (apparently rare) ability to read for comprehension, as well as to apply context to the writings of others, I not only understand (and agree with) Athena's point, but I am quite clear that, since I am neither "desperate to hold onto the myth of white supremacy" nor "defend{ing} austere economic policies and vot{ing} for {douchebag teabagger idjits}," I am astonishing able to discern that the OP is not about me - or indeed about all white people - but is rather a commentary on how foolishly poor white racists act against their own interests, simply in order to preserve their White Supremacy.

Now, having spelled that out for the comprehension-challenged, I fully expect them to gloss over everything I've written and continue their juvenile rants. Because the OP really might be about some of them. And that's not acceptable, especially from some uppity fancy-talking black lady.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The circumstances of your birth do indeed inform your world view. How much depends upon many things, including choices you make in your education, your associations, your work, etc.

It is not surprising that people who never actually encounter someone who looks/thinks/has a different experience of the world than themselves and whose significant experience with 'other' is what they see on sensationalized news have a fairly narrow world view and don't really understand that the world looks different if you have a different accent, a different color of skin, a different hair texture and more importantly: the world treats you differently. For example, a lotta white people don't realize that black people need sunscreen, that black people can get skin cancer and die from it, too.

It's not always malevolently intended. A lot of medical standards were based on what is normal for medical students: i.e. white males because those were the study subjects most easily available. Women still struggle to get doctors to recognize that heart attacks present with different symptoms than for males. And so on. It just relies on a narrow point of view. In some cases, pin point narrow.

Sure. But that has nothing at all to do with the OP. She is saying white people oppose bank regulation, universal health care, wage protections, and take other conservative US positions because of how they see black people, completely disregarding the myriad of reasons people fall into this ideology. She has blinders on and can only see racism. She is more racist than the people she decries.

Who is she decrying? The people who feared Obama would "blackify the nation" (actual quote spoken to me)? The people that think blacks on welfare are lazy, 'Oh sure, not all, but most of them'? People that are glad that Brown and Martin were killed, ie not understanding, but actually happy?

Or just all white people?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Sure. But that has nothing at all to do with the OP. She is saying white people oppose bank regulation, universal health care, wage protections, and take other conservative US positions because of how they see black people, completely disregarding the myriad of reasons people fall into this ideology. She has blinders on and can only see racism. She is more racist than the people she decries.

Who is she decrying? The people who feared Obama would "blackify the nation" (actual quote spoken to me)? The people that think blacks on welfare are lazy, 'Oh sure, not all, but most of them'? People that are glad that Brown and Martin were killed, ie not understanding, but actually happy?

Or just all white people?

Again, this isn't what she was writing about. Had she been complaining about people saying "blackify the nation" or that blacks are lazy, or celebrating anybody's death, I wouldn't be rolling my eyes at her for the OP.

It's almost as if they want to see her as a caricature of the Angry Black Woman, sort of like that GIF meme of the little kid saying "that's racist!"

It isn't so much that we want to see her that way. That is how she has presented herself. That is the image that she has cultivated on here. The OP is one example of how she has accomplished that.

I am astonishing able to discern that the OP is not about me

Oh, but it is about you. That is the funniest part of all of this. You are infected with Whiteness, Davka. You can pretend all you want, but we all know you are one of them.

 

[Rhea]

You know, whiteness is a powerful thing. So powerful in fact that it has managed to make slaves out of white people so desperate to hold onto a myth a supremacy that they would rather share whiteness with the white man kicking them in the ass day in and day out, than share better wages, better working conditions, and better benefits with someone who looks like me.

This is an interesting thing that I see, too. The good news is that indeed many people who are white do see it. As this increases, the problem has a better chance of being addressed.

Some folks have claimed that the OP misrepresents and that the conservative people who are white are just voting for conservatism, their choice untouched by racism. And yet, if this were true, it should be that conservatives do not want or need to use racist campaigning. So what to make of the fact that they do? And frequently? From Willie Horton to McCain's dark-skinned child, from one ad to another the way conservative campaigners get the message of liberal ideas across is through the lens of dark-skinned "others".

So if poor conservatives are just voting for conservatism, why the race-baiting ads? Why SO MANY of them? Wouldn't that harm their message? Wouldn't they know that? Wouldn't they eschew it? Instead, we see them flock to racist ads. So curious why they themselves think it would be effective... and they obviously do.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So if poor conservatives are just voting for conservatism, why the race-baiting ads? Why SO MANY of them? Wouldn't that harm their message? Wouldn't they know that? Wouldn't they eschew it? Instead, we see them flock to racist ads. So curious why they themselves think it would be effective... and they obviously do.

If poor conservatives vote against wage protections, universal health care, and banking regulations because they hate black people, then why do these positions maintain themselves even in discussions between white people that have nothing to do with race? Why are such conservatives concerned about the ""welfare queen" moochers who live off the dole"? Shouldn't they excuse the white ones, because they are white, and just go after the black ones? Why do they go on about how Universal Health care is terrible, go on about "death panels" and how we Canadians (who they see as mostly white) are namby pampby "libtards". There is a lot of hostility, sure. And racism can and does mix into it, sure. Both lean heavily on tribalist Us vs Them thinking (as does most of Athena's post history). But to say that Whiteness is the cause of people opposing banking regulations, wage protections, and universal health care is laughable on the face of it.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Who is she decrying? The people who feared Obama would "blackify the nation" (actual quote spoken to me)? The people that think blacks on welfare are lazy, 'Oh sure, not all, but most of them'? People that are glad that Brown and Martin were killed, ie not understanding, but actually happy?

Or just all white people?

Again, this isn't what she was writing about. Had she been complaining about people saying "blackify the nation" or that blacks are lazy, or celebrating anybody's death, I wouldn't be rolling my eyes at her for the OP.

So you are saying she is targetting all white people then?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Nope. The OP may refer to you, but it doesn't refer to me, other than perhaps obliquely. Reading for Comprehension is clearly not your strong suit. Try again.

Sure it does. You are one of the White people.

You do not have a "get out of White free card".

Your "get out of White free card" comes with the Democratic Party membership card, in the same envelope. That's how you know everyone who doesn't agree with you is racist.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

It seems that, what, three people so far, cannot understand the point of the OP.

If you think the OP is talking about all white people, then it is probably just talking about you, since other white people have already voiced their understanding of the OP to be not about them. Like Poppa used to say, throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the only one that squeals is the one that gets hit.

If you think that it applies to no white people, that there are not bigots voting against their self interests because of their "fear of a black planet" then obviously you have been living under a rock and have not seen the internet, television, or listened to the radio ever in life.

And if you think that admitting that racism exists (personal, institutional or otherwise) in some intangible state, but then you spend every chance you get trying desperately to deny any and all examples of any and all manifestations of it, then you are a liar not only to those around you, but to yourself.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

... which roughly translates to ... "White people oppose banking regulations, wage protection, and universal healthcare, because of whiteness".

How are we supposed to that this stuff seriously?

 

[Rhea]

So if poor conservatives are just voting for conservatism, why the race-baiting ads? Why SO MANY of them? Wouldn't that harm their message? Wouldn't they know that? Wouldn't they eschew it? Instead, we see them flock to racist ads. So curious why they themselves think it would be effective... and they obviously do.

If poor conservatives vote against wage protections, universal health care, and banking regulations because they hate black people, then why do these positions maintain themselves even in discussions between white people that have nothing to do with race?

Perhaps because their opinions were formed by campaign propaganda that was oozing, nay, dripping with race references?

Why are such conservatives concerned about the ""welfare queen" moochers who live off the dole"? Shouldn't they excuse the white ones, because they are white, and just go after the black ones?

When I talk to these people I am under the impression that they do not believe in the existence of white welfare queens - due to the campaign propaganda that was oozing, nay, dripping with race references?

Why do they go on about how Universal Health care is terrible, go on about "death panels" and how we Canadians (who they see as mostly white) are namby pampby "libtards".

You're socialists which is almost as bad as dark-skinned. But again, if you look at the ads, it is that universal health care TAKES from hard-working white pockets and GIVES to moocher black pockets. This is what the campaigns say - this is out there and real and pervasive. You need to answer why would they propagandize that way if they don't think that's the action-button?

There is a lot of hostility, sure. And racism can and does mix into it, sure. Both lean heavily on tribalist Us vs Them thinking (as does most of Athena's post history). But to say that Whiteness is the cause of people opposing banking regulations, wage protections, and universal health care is laughable on the face of it.

It's only laughable after you answer WHY the conservative propaganda machine engages in it. If it is truly laughable, the propaganda would not use it. But reality shows that they do, profusely. This indicates that it is not actually laughable at all.


Interestingly, this white lady does not take Athena's post history as tribalist. I read it as engaging conversations targeting things that keep us from being ONE tribe. It's a tough conversation. Sometimes it takes some real self-inspection. Generally, I don't find that I am diminished by that, though. When a conversation helps me notice a bias of mine, I kind of feel like the world grew bigger.

I used to feel differently, but I finally (in other times and places) put together my feeling of noticing when my segregated upbringing lets racist stuff seep into my head without me knowing it and HATING that it is there, with the power of studying these things more broadly to prevent that unwanted invasion. I was raised with many stereotypes about many things. I think we all were. But I always hated it when one of these cultural artifacts warred with my intellectual comfort. "Where the fuck did _that_ come from? I don't think that!" would pop up in my head from time to time. So where _did_ that come from? And how do I get rid of it like a bad dietary habit that maybe my parents instilled.

I look at many of Athena's posts in that context. And I find them interesting and illuminating. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I disagree. But I am pleased to discuss it. I remember when the "first black Miss America" was crowned and I cried out, "how can they say she's black when she has green eyes? Isn't she both?" and everyone shushed me. One couldn't talk about that. Wait, why not? It was bullshit to not be allowed to a) talk about that and b) point out that being mixed race was not wrong and that further c) pointing that out did not diminish either her beauty or her black experience one bit.

So no, I disagree with you completely about whether this or other posts by Athena are divisive. You may find her and others' replies make more sense when you are aware of this.

 

[fromderinside]

It seems that, what, three people so far, cannot understand the point of the OP.

If you think the OP is talking about all white people, then it is probably just talking about you, since other white people have already voiced their understanding of the OP to be not about them. Like Poppa used to say, throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the only one that squeals is the one that gets hit.

If you think that it applies to no white people, that there are not bigots voting against their self interests because of their "fear of a black planet" then obviously you have been living under a rock and have not seen the internet, television, or listened to the radio ever in life.

And if you think that admitting that racism exists (personal, institutional or otherwise) in some intangible state, but then you spend every chance you get trying desperately to deny any and all examples of any and all manifestations of it, then you are a liar not only to those around you, but to yourself.

Why is this OP?

If the attempt is to be a divining rod for white bigotry it is a heavy handed, mostly useless, device.

If it is a call to arms for those who believe racism threatens our social fabric here in the good ole U S of A identifies as causes effects.

Back to the obvious. Amplifying difference is the easiest way to keep control. We always fear so anything that can attach easily that fear is a great hammer. Racism exists as a mechanism for control by authority. The most obvious form is the easiest to amplify. Therefore blacks are front and center. If you don't think humans are animals that use the typical identifiers to organize their lives you are living before in a self deceptive pit.

So that.


Talking of things to which racism is associated is not talking about causes of racism its talking about uses by authority. It may not be possible to disconnect race from discrimination in human attempts to organize in great numbers successfully simply because we are discriminating things.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

It seems that, what, three people so far, cannot understand the point of the OP.

If you think the OP is talking about all white people, then it is probably just talking about you, since other white people have already voiced their understanding of the OP to be not about them. Like Poppa used to say, throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the only one that squeals is the one that gets hit.

If you think that it applies to no white people, that there are not bigots voting against their self interests because of their "fear of a black planet" then obviously you have been living under a rock and have not seen the internet, television, or listened to the radio ever in life.

And if you think that admitting that racism exists (personal, institutional or otherwise) in some intangible state, but then you spend every chance you get trying desperately to deny any and all examples of any and all manifestations of it, then you are a liar not only to those around you, but to yourself.

Why is this OP?

If the attempt is to be a divining rod for white bigotry it is a heavy handed, mostly useless, device.

If it is a call to arms for those who believe racism threatens our social fabric here in the good ole U S of A identifies as causes effects.

Back to the obvious. Amplifying difference is the easiest way to keep control. We always fear so anything that can attach easily that fear is a great hammer. Racism exists as a mechanism for control by authority. The most obvious form is the easiest to amplify. Therefore blacks are front and center. If you don't think humans are animals that use the typical identifiers to organize their lives you are living before in a self deceptive pit.

So that.


Talking of things to which racism is associated is not talking about causes of racism its talking about uses by authority. It may not be possible to disconnect race from discrimination in human attempts to organize in great numbers successfully simply because we are discriminating things.

Racism is more than a control from authority.

It is a way of seeing, a way of believing, a way of living.

It is in the air, it is in the water, and the longer you live in it, the more it is in your soul. It is an existence where the machines not only build and control the Matrix, they are of the Matrix and as much dependent on the Matrix as their human batteries are. Without the Matrix, they not only have no sustenance, they have no purpose.

And like the Matrix, the only way for racism to work is to hide itself from the majority of people living within it.

The red pill is a motherfucker, but blue pill kills your soul.

 

[Harry Bosch]

This has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with AM Radio waves. People exposed to AM Radio have a higher tendency to be counterproductive with their political choices. Blacks don't listen to virtually any AM radio. Lots of whites do. Hence the confusion.

According to the polls, poor whites tend to vote republican due to religion (abortion, church n state), immigration (dens usually more pro immigrant), and guns (Obama is taking them away).

 

[Rhea]

This has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with AM Radio waves. People exposed to AM Radio have a higher tendency to be counterproductive with their political choices. Blacks don't listen to virtually any AM radio. Lots of whites do. Hence the confusion.

According to the polls, poor whites tend to vote republican due to religion (abortion, church n state), immigration (dens usually more pro immigrant), and guns (Obama is taking them away).

You think that if it had to do with inherent racism they'd answer that way in a poll?

 

[Harry Bosch]

You think that if it had to do with inherent racism they'd answer that way in a poll?

I do. I see many poor Indians in my community voting rep due to their religion. I think that minority democrat candidates tend to do a better job of pandering to religious voters on minority areas than in white districts (my opinion). White dems tend to be be less religious.