THE INCREDIBLE WHITENESS OF BEING

[Davka]

Folks,

I thought this thread was going to be about American teeth.

Alex.

We do have nice teeth in the US, although a close examination will find the quality of a smile is directly related to one's place on the socioeconomic scale. This is one aspect of American culture which cuts through all racial lines.

Are gold caps still a thing? That used to be an aspect of dentistry which was somewhat race-specific. Also pimp-specific.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

This has nothing to do with race. It has everything to do with AM Radio waves. People exposed to AM Radio have a higher tendency to be counterproductive with their political choices. Blacks don't listen to virtually any AM radio. Lots of whites do. Hence the confusion.

And do you think the lower carrier frequency harms them...possibly instills a blindness to the suffering of others? I am white, but I am careful not to listen to any more AM than necessary (almost never necessary). Most of it is Clear Channel or Clear Channel lite. I have heard that too much listening to AM gives white people quite a Rush. It never affected me that way. It really isn't about whiteness, you know. It is about snake oil. The whiteness somehow just manages to creep in.

What is this thing you two call radio? I only listen to podcasts

 

[ronburgundy]

My kid and I were having one of those rambling conversations people have when there is nothing on TV and raindrops do a soft shoe down window panes. We were speaking of many things and within those many things, the subject of race came up, but not the 'negro problem" but that Pearl of Great Price known as whiteness.

You know, whiteness is a powerful thing. So powerful in fact that it has managed to make slaves out of white people so desperate to hold onto a myth a supremacy that they would rather share whiteness with the white man kicking them in the ass day in and day out, than share better wages, better working conditions, and better benefits with someone who looks like me. Poor and working class white folk all over this country defend austere economic policies and vote for representatives who actively seek to remove any and all worker and wage protections on the books, all for a promise that people of color will get no "special treatment," nothing they have not earned and earned hard. They will depend on a contribution jar left on a convenience store counter and the change strangers get from a ten to pay for the healthcare of their children, rather than demand a broader and more comprehensive universal healthcare at a more affordable price because such a plan might be considered "reparations". They will lose their homes to sub prime mortgage scams rather than demand regulations that could save the limited assets of their families and their generations to come.

Damn strong drug, this whiteness. Blinds you, binds you, then it never minds you.

I think your implicit causal theory is simplistic. Your observations basically presumes that economic conservatism is caused by a racist effort to deny minorities any "handouts", even at one's own financial peril. The causal direction is just as likely to be in reverse or common other factors causing both. Free market faithers need to believe in the purity and infallibility of unregulated markets, and this implies the justness of all economic outcomes. Thus, racial disparities being presumed to be the result of inherent differences in worth, reinforces this faith in the free market. In sum, their desire to reinforce their economic conservatism fuels their desire to explain income disparities via inherent worth, which thus makes them more racist.

Note, that this in no way implies that all arguments against specific disparities being due to racism are based in racist assumptions about inherent worth or attempts to justify the free market. It just means that if one is motivated to view market outcomes as "just", then presuming that all group differences in outcomes are due to differences in inherent worth is an effective strategy.

In addition, both economic conservatism and racism could covary (and they definitely do covary) due to shared influence on them from other factors. For example, their is growing evidence that conservatives have a general (and perhaps biologically based) preference for simplicity and order. Hierarchies (in which inequality is an inherent feature) have the quality of being relatively simplistic structures that provide clear order to things. The notion that the hierarchy of wealth stems from inherent hierarchies in worth satisfies this desire. The racist notion that racial categories are also hierarchically ordered does as well. This desire for simplistic order may somewhat independently fuel both economic conservatism and racism.

 

[Rhea]

And do you think the lower carrier frequency harms them...possibly instills a blindness to the suffering of others? I am white, but I am careful not to listen to any more AM than necessary (almost never necessary). Most of it is Clear Channel or Clear Channel lite. I have heard that too much listening to AM gives white people quite a Rush. It never affected me that way. It really isn't about whiteness, you know. It is about snake oil. The whiteness somehow just manages to creep in.

What is this thing you two call radio? I only listen to podcasts

And this is why wherever you are is a better place than one that has AM radio.

 

[dismal]

That low down racialist Higgins appears to have successfully diverted the thread away from the problems caused by whiteness to AM radio.

 

[Bronzeage]

We do have nice teeth in the US, although a close examination will find the quality of a smile is directly related to one's place on the socioeconomic scale. This is one aspect of American culture which cuts through all racial lines.

Are gold caps still a thing? That used to be an aspect of dentistry which was somewhat race-specific. Also pimp-specific.

I'm not sure about the gold teeth. It was once a form of conspicuous consumption. I had a coach in High school whose four front teeth were gold. The front were enameled and looked fairly natural, but when he looked up and spoke, the gold looked like a sunrise. He lost his teeth when working on an oil rig and a chain came loose.

Preventive dentistry, the kind where the dentist fills cavities as they appear and keep the tooth intact is the most neglected type of healthcare in the US. A poor person can get treated for just about any kind of injury or sickness and pay little or nothing, but teeth aren't included in this kind of thing. Regardless of race or skin color, rotted black teeth put a stigma on a person that can't be overcome by any amount of natural ability or education.

For myself, gold teeth are a form of inconspicuous consumption. None of mine show when I smile. I calculate in the the past ten years, my teeth have cost me about $6000 dollars. For that price, I still have all my teeth, or at least parts of most of them. My December root canal and accompanying gold crown was $1750. I was given the choice of the rebuild or an extraction. There are lot of things I would rather buy with that money, but if the one on the other side starts to hurt, I'll have it fixed, too.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

My kid and I were having one of those rambling conversations people have when there is nothing on TV and raindrops do a soft shoe down window panes. We were speaking of many things and within those many things, the subject of race came up, but not the 'negro problem" but that Pearl of Great Price known as whiteness.

You know, whiteness is a powerful thing. So powerful in fact that it has managed to make slaves out of white people so desperate to hold onto a myth a supremacy that they would rather share whiteness with the white man kicking them in the ass day in and day out, than share better wages, better working conditions, and better benefits with someone who looks like me. Poor and working class white folk all over this country defend austere economic policies and vote for representatives who actively seek to remove any and all worker and wage protections on the books, all for a promise that people of color will get no "special treatment," nothing they have not earned and earned hard. They will depend on a contribution jar left on a convenience store counter and the change strangers get from a ten to pay for the healthcare of their children, rather than demand a broader and more comprehensive universal healthcare at a more affordable price because such a plan might be considered "reparations". They will lose their homes to sub prime mortgage scams rather than demand regulations that could save the limited assets of their families and their generations to come.

Damn strong drug, this whiteness. Blinds you, binds you, then it never minds you.

I think your implicit causal theory is simplistic. Your observations basically presumes that economic conservatism is caused by a racist effort to deny minorities any "handouts", even at one's own financial peril. The causal direction is just as likely to be in reverse or common other factors causing both. Free market faithers need to believe in the purity and infallibility of unregulated markets, and this implies the justness of all economic outcomes. Thus, racial disparities being presumed to be the result of inherent differences in worth, reinforces this faith in the free market. In sum, their desire to reinforce their economic conservatism fuels their desire to explain income disparities via inherent worth, which thus makes them more racist.

Note, that this in no way implies that all arguments against specific disparities being due to racism are based in racist assumptions about inherent worth or attempts to justify the free market. It just means that if one is motivated to view market outcomes as "just", then presuming that all group differences in outcomes are due to differences in inherent worth is an effective strategy.

In addition, both economic conservatism and racism could covary (and they definitely do covary) due to shared influence on them from other factors. For example, their is growing evidence that conservatives have a general (and perhaps biologically based) preference for simplicity and order. Hierarchies (in which inequality is an inherent feature) have the quality of being relatively simplistic structures that provide clear order to things. The notion that the hierarchy of wealth stems from inherent hierarchies in worth satisfies this desire. The racist notion that racial categories are also hierarchically ordered does as well. This desire for simplistic order may somewhat independently fuel both economic conservatism and racism.

Uh, no. Just no.

And let us both pray that what I said is not simplistic, as you seems to not have understood it. What does this say about you?

 

[Rhea]

Are gold caps still a thing? That used to be an aspect of dentistry which was somewhat race-specific. Also pimp-specific.

Gold caps are still more durable than any other. They are routinely the material of choice for caps on molars because of their toughness. Front teeth, not so much because strength isn't needed there and ivory looks better.

 

[Derec]

Gold caps are still more durable than any other. They are routinely the material of choice for caps on molars because of their toughness. Front teeth, not so much because strength isn't needed there and ivory looks better.

I think you are confusing crowns (functional) with caps (bling essentially).

 

[Rhea]

Gold caps are still more durable than any other. They are routinely the material of choice for caps on molars because of their toughness. Front teeth, not so much because strength isn't needed there and ivory looks better.

I think you are confusing crowns (functional) with caps (bling essentially).

Oh, you're right, I think I am. Sorry, never mind!

(laughs a little at how totally far from trendy I am that such a thing never entered my mind. )

 

[Bronzeage]

Gold caps are still more durable than any other. They are routinely the material of choice for caps on molars because of their toughness. Front teeth, not so much because strength isn't needed there and ivory looks better.

I think you are confusing crowns (functional) with caps (bling essentially).

A cap and a crown are the same thing. It is a prosthetic replacement for lost tooth material. Caps/crowns on the front teeth can be a natural color, or flamboyant gold. It's the users choice. The things illustrated in the link you posted are called caps, but are in fact, just tooth jewelry.

 

[Davka]

Preventive dentistry, the kind where the dentist fills cavities as they appear and keep the tooth intact is the most neglected type of healthcare in the US. A poor person can get treated for just about any kind of injury or sickness and pay little or nothing, but teeth aren't included in this kind of thing. Regardless of race or skin color, rotted black teeth put a stigma on a person that can't be overcome by any amount of natural ability or education.

...snip... I calculate in the the past ten years, my teeth have cost me about $6000 dollars. For that price, I still have all my teeth, or at least parts of most of them. My December root canal and accompanying gold crown was $1750. I was given the choice of the rebuild or an extraction.

Just for the sake of whatever-the-fuck, I'll relate my own experiences: When my teeth started to get holes in them, I applied for MediCal (in CA) and got full coverage for low-end amalgam fillings. Then I went in search of dentists who took medi-cal, and the first dentist I found turned out to be a scam artist. I knew I had 2 or 3 cavities, but she pretended to take X-rays, and proceeded to tell me I had 13 cavities, which she was prepared to drill-and-fill immediately. I got out of her chair without a word and left, with her following me out to the parking lot bleating "sir? Sir? Is something wrong?"

I found another dentist, an honest one, and got the 3 (as it turned out) fillings I needed.

When my lower front teeth finally gave out, having been a crooked mess all my life, I went to a nonprofit faith-based clinic that used a combination of dentistry-school students and actual dentists doing charity work once a week. I was able to have all 4 teeth pulled, a root canal and a post, and a bridge across the bottom of my mouth, all for $1100.

So it is possible for the poor to get dentistry done, but only in certain parts of the country. And I freely admit that even though it was an incredible bargain (and a professional job), coming up with $1100 all at once is beyond the reach of most poor people. I was lucky, I borrowed from family. Took about 6 months to pay it back.

But now my teeth are sparkling with the Incredible Whiteness of Being.

 

[Bronzeage]

Preventive dentistry, the kind where the dentist fills cavities as they appear and keep the tooth intact is the most neglected type of healthcare in the US. A poor person can get treated for just about any kind of injury or sickness and pay little or nothing, but teeth aren't included in this kind of thing. Regardless of race or skin color, rotted black teeth put a stigma on a person that can't be overcome by any amount of natural ability or education.

...snip... I calculate in the the past ten years, my teeth have cost me about $6000 dollars. For that price, I still have all my teeth, or at least parts of most of them. My December root canal and accompanying gold crown was $1750. I was given the choice of the rebuild or an extraction.

Just for the sake of whatever-the-fuck, I'll relate my own experiences: When my teeth started to get holes in them, I applied for MediCal (in CA) and got full coverage for low-end amalgam fillings. Then I went in search of dentists who took medi-cal, and the first dentist I found turned out to be a scam artist. I knew I had 2 or 3 cavities, but she pretended to take X-rays, and proceeded to tell me I had 13 cavities, which she was prepared to drill-and-fill immediately. I got out of her chair without a word and left, with her following me out to the parking lot bleating "sir? Sir? Is something wrong?"

I found another dentist, an honest one, and got the 3 (as it turned out) fillings I needed.

When my lower front teeth finally gave out, having been a crooked mess all my life, I went to a nonprofit faith-based clinic that used a combination of dentistry-school students and actual dentists doing charity work once a week. I was able to have all 4 teeth pulled, a root canal and a post, and a bridge across the bottom of my mouth, all for $1100.

So it is possible for the poor to get dentistry done, but only in certain parts of the country. And I freely admit that even though it was an incredible bargain (and a professional job), coming up with $1100 all at once is beyond the reach of most poor people. I was lucky, I borrowed from family. Took about 6 months to pay it back.

But now my teeth are sparkling with the Incredible Whiteness of Being.

What has 64 legs and 4 teeth? The front row of a Willie Nelson concert.

Actually, if they were all Willie Nelson fans, there would be an odd number of legs.

 

[ronburgundy]

I think your implicit causal theory is simplistic. Your observations basically presumes that economic conservatism is caused by a racist effort to deny minorities any "handouts", even at one's own financial peril. The causal direction is just as likely to be in reverse or common other factors causing both. Free market faithers need to believe in the purity and infallibility of unregulated markets, and this implies the justness of all economic outcomes. Thus, racial disparities being presumed to be the result of inherent differences in worth, reinforces this faith in the free market. In sum, their desire to reinforce their economic conservatism fuels their desire to explain income disparities via inherent worth, which thus makes them more racist.

Note, that this in no way implies that all arguments against specific disparities being due to racism are based in racist assumptions about inherent worth or attempts to justify the free market. It just means that if one is motivated to view market outcomes as "just", then presuming that all group differences in outcomes are due to differences in inherent worth is an effective strategy.

In addition, both economic conservatism and racism could covary (and they definitely do covary) due to shared influence on them from other factors. For example, their is growing evidence that conservatives have a general (and perhaps biologically based) preference for simplicity and order. Hierarchies (in which inequality is an inherent feature) have the quality of being relatively simplistic structures that provide clear order to things. The notion that the hierarchy of wealth stems from inherent hierarchies in worth satisfies this desire. The racist notion that racial categories are also hierarchically ordered does as well. This desire for simplistic order may somewhat independently fuel both economic conservatism and racism.

Uh, no. Just no.

And let us both pray that what I said is not simplistic, as you seems to not have understood it. What does this say about you?

Uh, yes. What you wrote inherently presumes to all competent comprehenders of the English language that racist belief in white supremacy causes those people to accept conservative economic views that are harmful to the working class and poor, even if they themselves are among them. What does the fact that you have no clue what is logically presumed by your own arguments say about you?

 

[Davka]

Uh, no. Just no.

And let us both pray that what I said is not simplistic, as you seems to not have understood it. What does this say about you?

Uh, yes. What you wrote inherently presumes to all competent comprehenders of the English language that racist belief in white supremacy causes those people to accept conservative economic views that are harmful to the working class and poor, even if they themselves are among them. What does the fact that you have no clue what is logically presumed by your own arguments say about you?

Uh, no.

To those of us able to read for comprehension, it clearly delineates a subset of white conservatives, ie rural poor white people, as being motivated by their desire to have someone to look down on. And a shit-ton of interviews with these folks bear that out.

What does the fact that you were unable to see this distinction say about you?

 

[ronburgundy]

Uh, yes. What you wrote inherently presumes to all competent comprehenders of the English language that racist belief in white supremacy causes those people to accept conservative economic views that are harmful to the working class and poor, even if they themselves are among them. What does the fact that you have no clue what is logically presumed by your own arguments say about you?

Uh, no.

To those of us able to read for comprehension, it clearly delineates a subset of white conservatives, ie rural poor white people, as being motivated by their desire to have someone to look down on. And a shit-ton of interviews with these folks bear that out.

What does the fact that you were unable to see this distinction say about you?

Nothing I said implies that her comment applies to all white people. It is irrelevant to my point that she is referring only to subset of white conservatives. The fact remains that about these people, she is looking at their economic conservatism and their white supremacist racism and presuming a particular causal relationship, ignoring the equally or more plausible causal accounts for the co-occurrence of these views.

What does the fact that you can't tell the difference between my critique and those of people focusing on the over-generality of her comment say about you?
I can tell you what is says. It says you are so irrationally blinded by your everything-is-always-racism faith that you share with Athena that you don't even think about any critiques and just react to all critiques of this faith as though they are the same, even though they have nothing in common.

 

[Davka]

Uh, no.

To those of us able to read for comprehension, it clearly delineates a subset of white conservatives, ie rural poor white people, as being motivated by their desire to have someone to look down on. And a shit-ton of interviews with these folks bear that out.

What does the fact that you were unable to see this distinction say about you?

Nothing I said implies that her comment applies to all white people. It is irrelevant to my point that she is referring only to subset of white conservatives. The fact remains that about these people, she is looking at their economic conservatism and their white supremacist racism and presuming a particular causal relationship, ignoring the equally or more plausible causal accounts for the co-occurrence of these views.

What does the fact that you can't tell the difference between my critique and those of people focusing on the over-generality of her comment say about you?
I can tell you what is says. It says you are so irrationally blinded by your everything-is-always-racism faith that you share with Athena that you don't even think about any critiques and just react to all critiques of this faith as though they are the same, even though they have nothing in common.

Do you honestly believe that racism plays no part in the politics of poor rural whites? Do you think these often ignorant, poorly-educated poor whites would be up in arms against Obama if he were white? Would they be making their illiterate non-sequitur signs to protest a white Democrat who was implementing the exact same policies?

 

[ronburgundy]

Nothing I said implies that her comment applies to all white people. It is irrelevant to my point that she is referring only to subset of white conservatives. The fact remains that about these people, she is looking at their economic conservatism and their white supremacist racism and presuming a particular causal relationship, ignoring the equally or more plausible causal accounts for the co-occurrence of these views.

What does the fact that you can't tell the difference between my critique and those of people focusing on the over-generality of her comment say about you?
I can tell you what is says. It says you are so irrationally blinded by your everything-is-always-racism faith that you share with Athena that you don't even think about any critiques and just react to all critiques of this faith as though they are the same, even though they have nothing in common.

Do you honestly believe that racism plays no part in the politics of poor rural whites? Do you think these often ignorant, poorly-educated poor whites would be up in arms against Obama if he were white? Would they be making their illiterate non-sequitur signs to protest a white Democrat who was implementing the exact same policies?

Huh? Once again, absolutely nothing that I (or any other critics of the OP) have said implies that many poor rural white conservatives are not racist, nor that their racism doesn't impact some of their politics. That isn't the issue. OF course the level of vitriol in many of their anti-Obama comments are heightened by racism. But they were economic conservatives ranting about communists and socialists long before Obama, and no matter the race of the "liberals" promoting policies they viewed as such. The issue is whether their support for free market and protect-the-rich policies is causally rooted in a desire to keep black people down. IT isn't implausible that their is some degree of influence in that direction, but it is more plausible that a combination of the many other causal accounts explains more of the co-occurrence of economic conservatism and racist among rural poor whites.
Extreme free market faith requires adopting racism to rationalize racial inequalities in outcomes, and both views are defined by forms of hierarchical inequalities that constitute simplistic order that some people (especially not very bright people) are drawn to. It is far more likely that some combination of these are the explanation and that a simplistic racism --> economic conservatism account (which is absolutely what Athena claimed) is rather rare.

 

[Davka]

Do you honestly believe that racism plays no part in the politics of poor rural whites? Do you think these often ignorant, poorly-educated poor whites would be up in arms against Obama if he were white? Would they be making their illiterate non-sequitur signs to protest a white Democrat who was implementing the exact same policies?

Huh? Once again, absolutely nothing that I (or any other critics of the OP) have said implies that many poor rural white conservatives are not racist, nor that their racism doesn't impact some of their politics. That isn't the issue. OF course the level of vitriol in many of their anti-Obama comments are heightened by racism. But they were economic conservatives ranting about communists and socialists long before Obama, and no matter the race of the "liberals" promoting policies they viewed as such. The issue is whether their support for free market and protect-the-rich policies is causally rooted in a desire to keep black people down. IT isn't implausible that their is some degree of influence in that direction, but it is more plausible that a combination of the many other causal accounts explains more of the co-occurrence of economic conservatism and racist among rural poor whites.
Extreme free market faith requires adopting racism to rationalize racial inequalities in outcomes, and both views are defined by forms of hierarchical inequalities that constitute simplistic order that some people (especially not very bright people) are drawn to. It is far more likely that some combination of these are the explanation and that a simplistic racism --> economic conservatism account (which is absolutely what Athena claimed) is rather rare.

I get the strong sense that you have little or no firsthand experience with rural white poor folk.

 

[laughing dog]

Uh, no. Just no.

And let us both pray that what I said is not simplistic, as you seems to not have understood it. What does this say about you?

Uh, yes. What you wrote inherently presumes to all competent comprehenders of the English language that racist belief in white supremacy causes those people to accept conservative economic views that are harmful to the working class and poor, even if they themselves are among them. What does the fact that you have no clue what is logically presumed by your own arguments say about you?

This simplistic (and logically invalid) argument belies an implicit need for order. Does that make you a conservative?