The inner world of a prostitute

[Jolly_Penguin]

I don't think you'll ever get an answer to that question, Dr. Zoidberg.

The best argument we have heard is that making it illegal makes trafficking go down, if you use a loose definition of "trafficking" to include those who willingly move to engage in the job unforced. That appears to be the best we're going to get from the anti-prostitution crowd. We've also heard claims that legalizing prostitution it doesn't end sex slavery, as if that's the only argument for legalizing prostitution (ignoring personal liberty etc).

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I have a close friend who is currently working as a stripper to put herself through school. Her sole focus of it is monetary, and it can be funny (and maddening) to listen to her sometimes about how much she makes in a given night. She does so well because she ropes the suckers in all doe eyed and make them think they are special. When really, they are walking ATMs. It isn't always the sex worker who is the 'victim' of sex work.

 

[Toni]

Of course, I'm being a bit idealistic, since many women who go into this line of work are desperate and given other choices, they might prefer to do something else. Still, keeping the work illegal does nothing to help the most desperate of these women. Making the work legal doesn't solve all of the problems associated with the work either, but it does seem to me as the better option of the two. Obviously, there is no perfect solution.

Why would it help any of them? If a woman turns to prostitution out of financial desperation, why would not being a prostitute fix her financial desperation? How is not having money fixing anything for her?

The leftists believe that by destroying bad jobs good jobs will magically appear.

Surely we should be equally concerned with men who are financially desperate as we are about women.

Why not establish sufficient safety nets, job training, educational opportunities, excellent, accessible health care and excellent child care from infancy onward, through excellent pre-K-12, accessible for all?

The problem I have with some who are so concerned about the 'rights' of illegal immigrants is that often, they are more concerned about their own 'rights' to cheap labor for domestic service, farm work, day laborers, and restaurant and hotel workers and undocumented workers help fulfill that 'need.'

I see the same 'concern' about the rights of women (and can we cut the crap and just admit we really are including any girl old enough to grow some boobs and get a period as a woman although she is years away from legal adulthood?) to rent their bodies to be used for sex as really simply a concern for readily available for sex for men who cannot be bothered to learn sufficient social skills to be able to establish an actual relationship with a grown woman which might include sex that is mutually enjoyable and fulfilling for both of them.

I genuinely have a great deal of compassion for those who have serious disabilities and have a difficult time finding sexual partners who can and who are willing to provide sex and intimacy. I confess I am not certain of the best way to help those needs get met in a way that does not damage the sex worker. This is a minority of clients of sex workers, though. I think it's a separate issue altogether.

 

[southernhybrid]

Of course, I'm being a bit idealistic, since many women who go into this line of work are desperate and given other choices, they might prefer to do something else.

I never bought this point. They have the same options as other desperate people, including men and less sexually attractive women. Being an attractive female opens up options in the sex industry that aren't available or as lucrative for others. So long as nobody is forcing the choice on them I don't buy it as a negative. It's a positive; an option others in the same situation don't get.

Work 40 hours at minimum wage at the 7/11 or work a few hours on her back? The others in the same situation but without the latter choice are the ones at a disadvantage.

Well, in the US, one often has to pass a background check and with few exceptions, a drug test, to get a job. There are "desperate" women who can't pass either of those. Those are the women I was referring to when I said, some women were desperate. And, some women need to make more money than the minimum wage, so sex work may be an option, not something that she chooses. Maybe they have children and were abandoned by the father of the children. Maybe they are deep in debt etc. That would be another type of woman who I would refer to as desperate. So, some women choose to do sex work and some women are desperate so they do sex work. Some women enjoy sex women and some women don't like it, but it's better than the other choices they might have, like waitressing. I wouldn't call them desperate. I'd just call them unhappy about the work they do. So, your example wasn't related to what I meant.

Considering that I am a woman, and considering that I've openly discussed sex with women of literally all ages, I think I can safely say that it's only a small percentage of women who actually choose and honestly enjoy doing sex work. Maybe they are really good actors. I think you'd have to be a pretty good actor to be a successful sex worker because men who pay for sex are rarely able or willing to please the woman they are paying. But, to make the experience worth the price, an effective sex worker is also going to be a good actor. I'm not saying they don't enjoy the role of sex worker. I'm saying that I doubt it's sexually satisfying for the sex worker, so she must be good at acting, in order to enhance the experience of her clients.

So, I'm not saying that sex work is a great way to make a living. I'm saying that sex work should be legal and women who choose to do that type of work, should ideally feel empowered, and be treated respectfully by society. It's just one more way of making a living.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Sure, but some men and some women who are older or less attractive can be just as desperate and don't have as much of an option for the sex work. It is an advantage, not a disadvantage that attractive young women have.

And I agree with Toni that we should have a wife safety net. I am for both universal health care and universal basic income. In our last thread on universal basic income I was one of the very few endorsing it (Toni posted against it at that time). I hope that is changing. Maybe it's time for another thread on it.

And Toni, your insistence that men who argue in favour of the woman's right to choose doing so only because of their own selfish desires to have sex available is highly insulting and baseless. I am curious what you say to the women who make the same argument, including the sex workers themselves.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think you'll ever get an answer to that question, Dr. Zoidberg.

The best argument we have heard is that making it illegal makes trafficking go down, if you use a loose definition of "trafficking" to include those who willingly move to engage in the job unforced. That appears to be the best we're going to get from the anti-prostitution crowd. We've also heard claims that legalizing prostitution it doesn't end sex slavery, as if that's the only argument for legalizing prostitution (ignoring personal liberty etc).

And this is based on dodgy definitions of trafficking, making the conclusions questionable. There's also huge regional difference. In poor countries organised crime can operate pretty much unchecked. That gives pimps powers over their prostitutes in a way that doesn't exist in rich countries. Yet, these numbers are compared as if they're identical.

Don't forget that there's a huge "rescue industry". These are often well meaning, but deluded, people who do awful and invasive things in order to "help" prostitutes. It's these people who take away children from prostitutes. These people produce huge numbers of studies, all bullshit. It's all perversely skewed to justify their behaviour. All of these people aren't well meaning. A lot of them are most likely moralistic narcissistic bullies who just enjoy hurting those they deem morally unworthy. It's no surprise that prostitutes hates these people. I used to like Ecpat until I learned about the shit they do. Ecpat are run by people best described as "pure evil". They get roam unchallenged and unchecked in the centres of power and no politician (or anybody) dare challenge them lest they are seen as promoting paedophilia. Of course used as a method by which to enrich themselves, and not to actually protect children.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a close friend who is currently working as a stripper to put herself through school. Her sole focus of it is monetary, and it can be funny (and maddening) to listen to her sometimes about how much she makes in a given night. She does so well because she ropes the suckers in all doe eyed and make them think they are special. When really, they are walking ATMs. It isn't always the sex worker who is the 'victim' of sex work.

Bah... they're not victims either. They're paying for getting to feel special for a night. Who doesn't like to feel special now and again?

 

[DrZoidberg]

The leftists believe that by destroying bad jobs good jobs will magically appear.

Why not establish sufficient safety nets, job training, educational opportunities, excellent, accessible health care and excellent child care from infancy onward, through excellent pre-K-12, accessible for all?

There's plenty of prostitutes in Sweden and Denmark. Both countries have well developed social safety nets. Nobody in these countries need to work at all. Education is free and students get enough money from the state to live off it. And extra money if they have children. Denmark has extremely generous rules.

Nobody in Denmark or Sweden is a prostitute out of desperation or financial necessity. The prostitutes on drugs using prostitution to pay for her habit is a myth created in the 1970'ies and the image was heavily promoted in the 1980'ies. Prostitutes on drugs do not last long. They enter the field and within a couple of years (if even that) they're burned out and out of the industry. This means that the prostitutes that stick around, ie most of them, don't have drug problems and aren't prostitutes out of desperation.

There's another category of prostitutes. The one's that come from poor non-EU countries and tour around the EU. The way it works is that they work as long as their tourist visa is valid and they just continually switch countries always staying legal. They network with other girls (usually from the same original country), and share customer info. Good customers will be contacted by girls when they show up in the country. Since all communication is done via sex selling websites customers are easy to identify and keep track of. The girls will ask each other about potential clients. These girls sometimes travel together and live in groups.

You seem to only be talking about this later kind of prostitute? But they're hardly exploited victims. I see them more as people with rare and valuable skills that they're putting to good use in order to generate good money.

I see the same 'concern' about the rights of women (and can we cut the crap and just admit we really are including any girl old enough to grow some boobs and get a period as a woman although she is years away from legal adulthood?) to rent their bodies to be used for sex as really simply a concern for readily available for sex for men who cannot be bothered to learn sufficient social skills to be able to establish an actual relationship with a grown woman which might include sex that is mutually enjoyable and fulfilling for both of them.

I genuinely have a great deal of compassion for those who have serious disabilities and have a difficult time finding sexual partners who can and who are willing to provide sex and intimacy. I confess I am not certain of the best way to help those needs get met in a way that does not damage the sex worker. This is a minority of clients of sex workers, though. I think it's a separate issue altogether.

I think it's normal to be a neurotic mess when it comes to sex. It's normal to be sexually dysfunctional. Our western cultures are extremely sex negative. Horrendously moralistic and judgemental. As you demonstrate so eloquently. As long as sex is seen as a favour women bestow upon men, and not something fun for mutual enjoyment, prostitutes will probably be necessary in order to teach us how to be good lovers. A woman who's husband has sex with a prostitute, isn't losing anything. It's only cheating in her own head. Nobody has really been cheated on. It's more likely that the prostitute will teach him things on how to be a better lover to his wife. So it's win win.

If a couple are having marital problems and their sex life sucks. Isn't it smart to turn to a professional and get help with it?

Not to brag or anything but I've had sex with many 40+ women who experienced an orgasm for the first time with me. I'm not a prostitute but I have had a lot of sex, have been quite a slut throughout my life, and have gotten plenty of practice. Most people are stuck in their heads. They lack the ability to fully embrace sensual pleasure and be swept away by it. A lot of people are afraid of letting go and to let themselves be taken by the other. This is something that you have to be able to master (both as a man and a woman) or your sex life with suck donkey balls. And most people are terrible at this. It's good to have sex with somebody more experienced than you and learn from them. So you can teach others in turn.

While monogamy is great for emotional stability and safety it is a godawful way to learn to be a good lover. If you've lived your life as a serial monogamist (or heaven forbid had the same partner most of your life) chances are pretty good that you are a terrible lover. It's in situations like this that prostitutes can help.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It's good to have sex with somebody more experienced than you and learn from them.

The virgin male fantasy that a prostitute is going to open up a whole new world of sensual pleasure is nonsense. As has been abundantly noted, it's a job and the job is "cum and get out." Yes, that goes for Amsterdam as well (probably more so, because it is such a high turnover business). While I'm sure you've had your moments informally talking to prostitutes here and there in your travels--and likely met some extraordinary people in the process that may be apart from the norm--I'm equally sure most are not being honest with themselves, let alone a stranger that they are just casually hanging out with and likely trying to impress.

And that's not got anything necessarily to do with their profession. Very few people--particularly the Millennial generation--even comprehend what being honest with themselves even means.

We all put on our best faces--particularly in party-like atmospheres--so I sincerely doubt you ever dug deep enough into any of their psyches to discover other darker issues. As you put it, "it's normal to be a neurotic mess when it comes to sex. It's normal to be sexually dysfunctional." so if that's your general attitude in life, my guess is that you're not the type to dig too deeply in others to find what may or may not actually be motivating them.

And no particular reason you should, of course, if that's your bent, but you're here speaking for these others as if everything for them is just really cool and normal and all in good fun, because, hey, everyone is sexually dysfunctional in some manner, so, samey samey. And for some, yes. And for others it's not. And for still others, they have no idea what "sex" actually is, because when they were children they were raped by their sister or brother or uncle or father or neighbor or a stranger and forever after their wires are crossed and can only think in terms of "sex" being "forced domination and pain that makes me dissociate and lose time." Not all. But a lot. More so in fact than one would think.

So how much time did you spend with these prostitutes in a professionally guided group therapy session, because for many people with complicated lives it can take decades to unravel all the "dysfunctional" shit that is driving them in ways they have no conscious clue about.

And shit like this:

They lack the ability to fully embrace sensual pleasure and be swept away by it.

While no doubt true of many people across the globe, if you think any of your prostitute friends are fully embracing sensual pleasure and being swept away by it by obese German asshole tourists, drunk and stoned out of their minds and reeking of bratwurst while the hooker washes their disgusting two inch cocks as they drunkenly grope them, trying to pay more for arschlecken, then you live in a bad 70's porn film.

Or, put simply, if it weren't for the fact that they were being paid, they likely wouldn't fuck the majority of their clients. The fact that kissing is almost always a strict no (in a professional context) for most prostitutes should tell you all that you need to know.

So what does this poetry of sensuality have to do with buying someone else's hole for ten minutes?

 

[DrZoidberg]

It's good to have sex with somebody more experienced than you and learn from them.

The virgin male fantasy that a prostitute is going to open up a whole new world of sensual pleasure is nonsense. As has been abundantly noted, it's a job and the job is "cum and get out." Yes, that goes for Amsterdam as well (probably more so, because it is such a high turnover business).

Are you talking about the Red Windows of Amsterdam? While true. The girls use the Red Windows as a method to find new customers in a safe setting. When they find a customer they like they'll give them their contact information and meet somewhere else, for a longer session. If the goal is to cum as fast as possible... why would they even need a prostitute? It makes no sense.

The reason why the Red Windows still exist is because it's a tradition that stretches back into Medieval times. It's become a Dutch landmark and a tourist destination. I love it. It creates a very nice atmosphere. I love hanging out in the Amsterdam Red Light district. I somehow doubt you've been there. Because it doesn't have a sinister vibe. It's not just men prowling around looking for a quick fuck. It's fairly mixed gender wise, and age wise. It's all kinds of people there. The Red Windows are mixed in with pubs, clubs and Coffee Shops. It's just got a fun and positive party vibe. And when off the clock the hookers might very well be found partying in the same area.

Yes, they could just as well find customers on the Internet. But clearly the hookers like doing it this way, or otherwise they would stop. Nobody is forcing the hookers to stand in the windows. The hookers are paying themselves for use of the windows, by the hour.

While I'm sure you've had your moments informally talking to prostitutes here and there in your travels--and likely met some extraordinary people in the process that may be apart from the norm--I'm equally sure most are not being honest with themselves, let alone a stranger that they are just casually hanging out with and likely trying to impress.

And that's not got anything necessarily to do with their profession. Very few people--particularly the Millennial generation--even comprehend what being honest with themselves even means.

We all put on our best faces--particularly in party-like atmospheres--so I sincerely doubt you ever dug deep enough into any of their psyches to discover other darker issues.

Sure... but I did speak to them. I'll just have to use my best judgement. They had no reason to impress me. And the gay hookers I met thought I also was a gay prostitute. So were quite open and frank with me. Not to mention that my Copenhagen prostitute friend is now a close friend of mine. She likes me and trusts me and have therefore let me into a world where non-prostitutes aren't usually welcome. We've had long and deep conversations about emotional stuff. About love and boyfriends... troubles. I think I know her quite well at this point. We have been friends for over two years.

As you put it, "it's normal to be a neurotic mess when it comes to sex. It's normal to be sexually dysfunctional." so if that's your general attitude in life, my guess is that you're not the type to dig too deeply in others to find what may or may not actually be motivating them.

I think you mean the exact opposite? It's from digging deep into others that this is revealed.

And no particular reason you should, of course, if that's your bent, but you're here speaking for these others as if everything for them is just really cool and normal and all in good fun, because, hey, everyone is sexually dysfunctional in some manner, so, samey samey. And for some, yes. And for others it's not. And for still others, they have no idea what "sex" actually is, because when they were children they were raped by their sister or brother or uncle or father or neighbor or a stranger and forever after their wires are crossed and can only think in terms of "sex" being "forced domination and pain that makes me dissociate and lose time." Not all. But a lot. More so in fact than one would think.

Wow... that's a lot of assumptions. It sounds to me like you have no idea what you are talking about. Isn't that so?

The trope about people only becoming prostitutes because of trauma or being raped is such a trope that the prostitutes themselves joke about it. We want to think of prostitutes as traumatised and damaged goods to justify saving them. But saving them from themselves. It's just a psychological mechanic by which we can justify taking away their freedom and rights and treat them like children we need to take care of. It's incredibly cynical, and I dare say, evil.

So how much time did you spend with these prostitutes in a professionally guided group therapy session, because for many people with complicated lives it can take decades to unravel all the "dysfunctional" shit that is driving them in ways they have no conscious clue about.

Since when is that a measure of how well you know somebody?

And shit like this:

They lack the ability to fully embrace sensual pleasure and be swept away by it.

While no doubt true of many people across the globe, if you think any of your prostitute friends are fully embracing sensual pleasure and being swept away by it by obese German asshole tourists, drunk and stoned out of their minds and reeking of bratwurst while the hooker washes their disgusting two inch cocks as they drunkenly grope them, trying to pay more for arschlecken, then you live in a bad 70's porn film.

What? In what crazy world do you think any prostitute would touch men like this, even with a long stick? Drunk or high people are never welcome in brothels... for instance. I wonder what movie you are using as a template from which you draw these fantasies. Because it's clearly not based on reality.

Or, put simply, if it weren't for the fact that they were being paid, they likely wouldn't fuck the majority of their clients. The fact that kissing is almost always a strict no (in a professional context) for most prostitutes should tell you all that you need to know.

Obviously. It has to do with hygiene. Nothing else. Prostitutes have to be very careful about not getting or spreading STD's. Primarily because it will negatively impact their economy.

So what does this poetry of sensuality have to do with buying someone else's hole for ten minutes?

Again... you live in a fantasy land. Obviously not. Who the fuck hires a hooker for ten minutes?!?!?!

Edit: what you don't seem to understand is that for prostitution there's a seller's market. There will always be a greater demand than supply. Prostitutes have little reason to put up with anything they don't like. So they probably won't.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I somehow doubt you've been there.

I've been there several times (twice when I was a kid backpacking through Europe in the 80s and just recently on my 50th). My wife and I have been seriously thinking about moving there as it's both of our favorite cities (beside NY).

Because it doesn't have a sinister vibe.

That's a ridiculously subjective statement.

Nobody is forcing the hookers to stand in the windows. The hookers are paying themselves for use of the windows, by the hour.

Yes, I know how it all works. It's not a matter of logistics.

I'll just have to use my best judgement.

Well, that's the problem. Your "best judgement" is in no way quantifiable. Not a ding or an insult, just a fact.

They had no reason to impress me.

Everyone has their own various reasons for impressing (or not) everyone else. Again, that's a rather subjective assertion, don't you think? It may not be wrong, but there is no way you could know whether or not someone is just generally out to impress or has some particular reason to impress or has some dysfunctional reason to impress, etc., etc., etc.

The point being, once again, that it's a purely subjective guess on your part.

And the gay hookers I met thought I also was a gay prostitute. So were quite open and frank with me. Not to mention that my Copenhagen prostitute friend is now a close friend of mine. She likes me and trusts me and have therefore let me into a world where non-prostitutes aren't usually welcome. We've had long and deep conversations about emotional stuff. About love and boyfriends... troubles. I think I know her quite well at this point. We have been friends for over two years.

Again, I have no doubt you have met extraordinary individuals and found some to be forthright and who never had a single problem in life while others not so much. The point is that you are assuming a very general, authoritative tone and tending to speak for a large majority when in fact you could only know a very small minority and that only due to purely subjective reasons that help in an anecdotal sense, but only as it in turn relates to you and your "best judgement."

So we, in turn, would need to know you just as well as you say you know these particular prostitutes for us to just accept your assessment as being in any way meaningful or, indeed, beyond whatever surface you may also be hiding beneath.

This isn't a dig or meant in any way to be an insult; it's just that you're basically saying, "Well, I personally know some prostitutes and they aren't fucked up." Ok. I don't think that's outside the realm of anyone saying the same thing about any particular group; some people are fucked up by certain experiences and others aren't.

But that's not exactly scientific. It's certainly useful, but not definitive in any way. It's you telling us about a handful of positive experiences which, in general, leads you to think, in general, certain things.

Great. More power to you, obviously, but it's still just personal anecdote.

As you put it, "it's normal to be a neurotic mess when it comes to sex. It's normal to be sexually dysfunctional." so if that's your general attitude in life, my guess is that you're not the type to dig too deeply in others to find what may or may not actually be motivating them.

I think you mean the exact opposite? It's from digging deep into others that this is revealed.

Ok, my mistake. So you have been conducting more in depth psychoanalytical analysis and found that it's "normal to be a neurotic mess when it comes to sex" and "it's normal to be sexualy dysfunctional." So what are your case studies?

Or are you, once again, merely speaking anecdotally, complete with your own problems of confirmation bias and subjective baggage that in turn could easily cloud the issue?

I'm sure you'll agree that there is a significant difference between a more stringent, more "scientific" method of study than "Well, I've had a lot of sex and talked to some prostitutes and one of them is a good friend, therefore here are my pronouncements about all human sexuality and generalizable insights into all prostitutes."

Yes, I know I'm skating into strawman territory there, but I'm doing so to illustrate the point. You are relating personal experiences and those are certainly valid and useful and even enlightening, but up to a point. Beyond that point, however, more rigorous study is necessary from better qualified individuals or institutions and there are others itt who are making such arguments that you seem--such as in this reponse--to be trying to dismiss with your personal anecdotes.

It doesn't work that way.

And no particular reason you should, of course, if that's your bent, but you're here speaking for these others as if everything for them is just really cool and normal and all in good fun, because, hey, everyone is sexually dysfunctional in some manner, so, samey samey. And for some, yes. And for others it's not. And for still others, they have no idea what "sex" actually is, because when they were children they were raped by their sister or brother or uncle or father or neighbor or a stranger and forever after their wires are crossed and can only think in terms of "sex" being "forced domination and pain that makes me dissociate and lose time." Not all. But a lot. More so in fact than one would think.

Wow... that's a lot of assumptions.

Ironic.

It sounds to me like you have no idea what you are talking about. Isn't that so?

It is not.

The trope about people only becoming prostitutes because of trauma or being raped is such a trope that the prostitutes themselves joke about it.

Again, well aware, but this is an excellent example of my point. Calling it a "trope" does not necessarily just magically wash away the fact that actual studies done on the matter reveal that being sexually abused as a child can correlate to prostitution later in life or that legalized prostitution can also correlate to larger flows of human trafficking. It's not a 1 for 1 proposition, of course, as nothing is in life, but it's also not not an issue.

Again, you meeting one or two or ten or even a hundred prostitutes that may not have been sexually abused (or just didn't tell you about it), does not an exhaustive study make.

We want to think of prostitutes as traumatised and damaged goods to justify saving them.

Speaking of "tropes."

It's just a psychological mechanic by which we can justify taking away their freedom and rights and treat them like children we need to take care of.

Like a pimp does, one might say. Or, as they are known in Amsterdam, "businesspeople." Or, rather, I guess, "the State."

It's incredibly cynical, and I dare say, evil.

"Evil" like taking heroin away from a junkie? Which is the more evil? Knowing that money alone is a coercion and that if weren't for the fact that they were being paid, it is almost a certainty that the vast majority of prostitutes would not be having sex with that particular client--thus making it always a coercive act--or trying to come up with a social solution that doesn't seek to exploit certain dysfunctional issues (whether personally inflicted or as a result of society) people may be suffering?

So how much time did you spend with these prostitutes in a professionally guided group therapy session, because for many people with complicated lives it can take decades to unravel all the "dysfunctional" shit that is driving them in ways they have no conscious clue about.

Since when is that a measure of how well you know somebody?

That's what I'm trying to gauge. Again, you are speaking in very authoritative, generalized terms--as if speaking for all prostitutes--when in fact all you are doing is relating your casual observations from being even more casually involved (except for your one friend) with a handful of prostitutes.

Again, it's not worthless information, but others itt are talking about the very real harms that come along with and are part/parcel to prostitution, not the least of which is the likely enabling and retriggering of abuse that can and does happen for some prostitutes, but also in regard to ancillary issues and harms as well as social issues (such as the fact that it's usually the sex worker that is punished and not the "John").

It's a highly complicated issue that doesn't just come down to a person's body is theirs to do with as they please. There are, in fact, many instances where others--whether it's family or friends or the State--can and must intervene for the good of the individual. That can take many forms that do not necessarily rise and fall on taking anyone's rights away.

I'm firmly in the camp that says you can do whatever the hell you want to do to your own body so long as you don't harm anyone else in the process. The question of prostitution, however, does involved multiple harms to others in various ways, so those have to be explored and not just hand-waved away because you have a friend who is a prostitute and/or you've partied with some prostitutes.

I don't find that to be an unreasonable observation.

And shit like this:

They lack the ability to fully embrace sensual pleasure and be swept away by it.

While no doubt true of many people across the globe, if you think any of your prostitute friends are fully embracing sensual pleasure and being swept away by it by obese German asshole tourists, drunk and stoned out of their minds and reeking of bratwurst while the hooker washes their disgusting two inch cocks as they drunkenly grope them, trying to pay more for arschlecken, then you live in a bad 70's porn film.

What? In what crazy world do you think any prostitute would touch men like this, even with a long stick?

You've supposedly been to Amsterdam many times and you're telling me you've never seen German tourists (in particular) behaving worse than Americans? You'll have to let me know the streets you hang out in, then, because as I've noted, I've been there a few times now--with almost thirty years between--and every time I saw dozens of drunk, stoned and LOUD Deutscher coming and going from behind those windows, usually with their buddies still standing outside laughing like idiot freshmen.

Drunk or high people are never welcome in brothels... for instance.

I was. She called it "Dutch courage," in fact. There's even a name for it.

Because it's clearly not based on reality.

So, my anecdotes don't count, only yours do?

Or, put simply, if it weren't for the fact that they were being paid, they likely wouldn't fuck the majority of their clients. The fact that kissing is almost always a strict no (in a professional context) for most prostitutes should tell you all that you need to know.

Obviously. It has to do with hygiene. Nothing else.

Anecdotes vary.

So what does this poetry of sensuality have to do with buying someone else's hole for ten minutes?

Again... you live in a fantasy land.

?

Who the fuck hires a hooker for ten minutes?!?!?!

Aside from the fact that in Amsterdam, anyone who goes to one of the windows these days is evidently paying in 15 minute intervals, I wasn't being literal. Guys often think they are going to be in their own fantasy lands, but actually end up cumming too quickly--thus ending up paying someone for their hole for ten minutes (if that)--and once they cum (unless they pay more or pre-arranged), the show's usually over.

I'm not talking about spending thousands for a high-end escort to treat you like royalty, I'm talking about most people's experiences.

 

[Toni]

Sure, but some men and some women who are older or less attractive can be just as desperate and don't have as much of an option for the sex work. It is an advantage, not a disadvantage that attractive young women have.

And I agree with Toni that we should have a wife safety net. I am for both universal health care and universal basic income. In our last thread on universal basic income I was one of the very few endorsing it (Toni posted against it at that time). I hope that is changing. Maybe it's time for another thread on it.

And Toni, your insistence that men who argue in favour of the woman's right to choose doing so only because of their own selfish desires to have sex available is highly insulting and baseless. I am curious what you say to the women who make the same argument, including the sex workers themselves.

I'm pretty sure I did not post against a universal basic income. Maybe I'm wrong. Link?

As for the rest: you have your experiences (and I'm sure none of your clients has ever lied to you or mislead you in any way) and I have mine. I did not reach my position without a lot of careful thought and actually was surprised at the conclusion I reached.

 

[southernhybrid]

I really hate it when discussions like this one start to become attacks on each other. Can't people disagree in a more respectful way? it doesn't appear to be that way too much lately. The reason I support legalization, is primarily because it's what the women/men engaged in this line of work want. And from everything I've read over the years, it does seem much safer when it's legal. I can't think of any reason why keeping it illegal benefits anyone!

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-majority-of-sex-workers-enjoy-their-job-why-should-we-find-that-surprising-10083175.html

Selling sex is not inherently harmful or dangerous. It is clear from the 50 to 60 incidents reported to NUM every month that offenders target sex workers because they believe that they won’t be reported to the police, and they will get away with it. Tragically, this belief is based in reality: only 26 per cent of the 1350 sex workers who have reported serious crimes to NUM were willing to report to the police.

This study has demonstrated that sex workers are a diverse group, most of whom have chosen their work as a preference to the other options available to them. It also delivers a strong message that any policy which seeks to deny their agency is not founded in evidence.

On International Sex Workers’ Rights Day we must remind ourselves that sex workers are one of the most stigmatised groups in our society and are often deliberately denied a voice by policy makers who claim to be advocating for them. Only through decriminalisation will sex workers be less stigmatised and feel comfortable in reporting crimes to the police and advocating their rights as workers.

That is just one small study, but it exemplified my point. The US has the exact same problem when it comes to sex workers not reporting assaults out of fear of being targeted by the police. Sheesh. When you legalize sex work you make it safer for the providers. Those engaged in the work are less stigmatized and they don't have to be fearful of reporting sexual assault to the police because they are engaged in a legitimate line of work. I honestly don't understand the objection to legalization.

One last plea for consideration of legalization or at lease decriminalization. First, I will admit that Amnesty International is one of my favorite human rights organization. Although I can't afford to contribute much, I am a member. I was very pleased when the organization began supporting decriminalization of sex work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/25/magazine/why-amnesty-international-is-calling-for-decriminalizing-sex-work.html


And, one more piece from the NYTimes goes into length giving the reasons why it's best to decriminalize or legalize sex work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/magazine/should-prostitution-be-a-crime.html?action=click&module=RelatedCoverage&pgtype=Article&region=Footer

Have fun debating. I've said enough.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

Well, there are other issues (the other side of the decriminalization coin as it were):

Alongside other countries and states that have removed criminal penalties against sex trade exploiters, such as Holland, Germany, Nevada (US), and some states in Australia, New Zealand helped to make selling sex as respectable and devoid of red tape as selling cars. The application form for opening a brothel in New Zealand is just two pages long: three pages shorter than the form needed to adopt a dog or cat from Battersea Dogs & Cats Home.

One of the many survivors of the sex trade I met during my research is Sabrinna Valisce, who volunteered with the NZPC over a 25-year period. Valisce campaigned alongside her colleagues for blanket decriminalisation, but now regrets doing so. “I thought it would give more power and rights to the women,” she told me, “but I soon realised the opposite was true.”

According to Valisce, decriminalisation benefitted the punters and brothel owners rather than those selling sex within them.

“Brothel owners could choose their prices, they say all-inclusive [which means the punter can have sex with the woman he has paid for as many times as he wishes],” says Valisce. “So clients would go into the room, see a girl and she would have to deal with them wanting to do anything and everything.”

Under legalised and decriminalisation regimes, abuse suffered by the women is now considered an “occupational hazard”, like a stone dropped on a builder’s toe.
...
Across Holland, women have been imported by traffickers from Africa, Eastern Europe and Asia to meet the increased demand. There has been little or no support for women to exit prostitution, and the innate murkiness of the sex trade has not been washed away by legal benediction. As in Germany and Nevada, the close links between organised crime and prostitution has not been disrupted, and women are still being murdered by pimps and punters at an alarming rate.

A 2012 article in the journal World Development reported that “countries with legalised prostitution have a statistically significantly larger reported incidence of human trafficking inflows”.

Decriminalisation of the sex trade does nothing to protect those selling sex. I am one of many feminist abolitionists actively campaigning for an end to the criminalisation of prostituted people, and for the onus to be shifted onto the consumers. During the time I spent in legal brothels in Australia, Holland, Nevada and Germany, and so-called street “tolerance zones”, I found that the most pernicious effect of removing criminal sanctions from pimps and profiteers is the way it reframes prostitution as a straightforward commercial transaction, which, in turn, serves to hide the truth about the harm and abuse at the heart of the global sex trade.

From the World Development Report referenced above:

Much recent scholarly attention has focused on the effect of globalization on human rights (Bjørnskov, 2008; de Soysa & Vadlamannati, 2011) and women’s rights in particular (Cho, 2011; Potrafke & Ursprung, 2012). Yet, one important, and largely neglected, aspect of globalization with direct human rights implications is the increased trafficking of human beings (Cho and Vadlamannati, 2012; Potrafke, 2011), one of the dark sides of globalization. Similarly, globalization scholars with their emphasis on the apparent loss of national sovereignty often neglect the impact that domestic policies crafted at the country level can still exert on aspects of globalization. This article analyzes how one important domestic policy choice – the legal status of prostitution – affects the incidence of human trafficking inflows to countries.

Most victims of international human trafficking are women and girls. The vast majority end up being sexually exploited through prostitution (United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime (UNODC), 2006). Many authors therefore believe that trafficking is caused by prostitution and combating prostitution with the force of the law would reduce trafficking (Outshoorn, 2005). For example, Hughes (2000) maintains that “evidence seems to show that legalized sex industries actually result in increased trafficking to meet the demand for women to be used in the legal sex industries” (p. 651). Farley (2009) suggests that “wherever prostitution is legalized, trafficking to sex industry marketplaces in that region increases” (p. 313).1 In its Trafficking in Persons report, the U.S. State Department (2007) states as the official U.S. Government position “that prostitution is inherently harmful and dehumanizing and fuels trafficking in persons” (p. 27). The idea that combating human trafficking requires combating prostitution is, in fact, anything but new.
...
Others disagree. They argue that the legalization of prostitution will improve working and safety conditions for sex workers, allowing sex businesses to recruit among domestic women who choose prostitution as their free choice of occupation. This, in turn, makes resorting to trafficked women less attractive (Bureau of the Dutch National Rapporteur on Trafficking, 2005; Segrave, 2009). While those who call for combating prostitution with the force of the law typically subscribe to the belief that prostitution is almost always forced and rarely truly voluntary (Farley, 2009), the view that the legalization of prostitution may reduce trafficking is typically held by those who believe that the choice to sell one’s sexual services for money need not always be forced, but can be a voluntary occupational choice.
...
In this article, we argue that theoretically the legalization of prostitution has two contradictory effects on the incidence of trafficking, a substitution effect away from trafficking and a scale effect increasing trafficking. Which of these effects dominate in reality, and whether legalization is therefore likely to increase or decrease trafficking, is an empirical question. The extant qualitative literature contains many strongly held views and beliefs, sometimes based on anecdotal evidence, but little in terms of systematic and rigorous research. [Take note Zoid]

From their conclusion:

This paper has investigated the impact of legalized prostitution on inflows of human trafficking. According to economic theory, there are two effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market and thus an increase in human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked prostitutes by favoring prostitutes who have legal residence in a country. Our quantitative empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger degree of reported human trafficking inflows. We have corroborated this quantitative evidence with three brief case studies of Sweden, Denmark and Germany.

They go on to qualify that with:

Our central finding, i.e., that countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger reported incidence of trafficking inflows, is therefore best regarded as being based on the most reliable existing data, but needs to be subjected to future scrutiny. More research in this area is definitely warranted, but it will require the collection of more reliable data to establish firmer conclusions.

The likely negative consequences of legalized prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favor of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking (e.g., Outshoorn, 2005). However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalization of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes – at least those legally employed – if prostitution is legalized. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky “freedom of choice” issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services. A full evaluation of the costs and benefits, as well as of the broader merits of prohibiting prostitution, is beyond the scope of the present article.

So, again, it's not such a cut and dried proposition.

ETA: I have not read the book from the author of the Independent piece above, but did find this review:

Bindel argues that the liberals and libertarians see themselves as radicals supporting a free market in sex, but in fact, they are simply defending the status quo of male domination and exploitation. Defending the free trade in sexual services provides an invitation to pimps, racketeers, and criminal networks to exploit and abuse the women who get caught up in the sex trade. Bindel argues that the options of legalization or decriminalization are both deeply flawed. She cites evidence from the Netherlands, where legalization is held to an absolute failure—even on its own terms. The closing down of sections of the “red light” district in Amsterdam is seen as testimony to the failure of legalization. Bindel suggests that full decriminalization, which is often associated with New Zealand, is an equally bankrupt model, since it leads to an increase in trafficking, encourages sex tourism, promotes violence against women, and facilitates the overall expansion of the sex trade.

Both legalization and decriminalization tend to create “the invisible man,” that normalizes and neutralizes the male buyer. Whereas the Nordic Model places the onus on the male buyer. The normalization of the buyer also tends to be promoted in the academic literature on prostitution, wherein the buyers are depicted as sad, lonely, older men, or as the “guy next door,” who is in need of sexual variety. This view of the male client, however, does little to explain the disturbing levels of violence that women involved in prostitution often report, or why prostituted women are twenty times more likely than their “normal” female counterparts to be murdered.

Bindel provides a hard-hitting critique of those male and female academics who act as apologists for the forms of male domination that are intrinsic to the sex trade. For not only do these academics in her view try to defend the indefensible, but some are actually involved in this unseemly business. A major offender in Bindel’s view is Dr. John Davies, who she claims has been directly involved not only in promoting the sex trade but also associating with a group of scholars who claim that sex trafficking is a myth and in reality, nothing more than a form of economic migration. These “trafficking deniers” have been influential in playing down the sex trafficking issue and by implication, discrediting many of its victims.

The book contains an impressive level of detail that is frequently based on interviews with those directly involved in the sex trade. The Pimping of Prostitution provides a refreshing contrast to the highly conjectural and half-baked assertions that are prominent in much of the existing literature on prostitution. It is a powerful, provocative, and highly original text, which will no doubt add some impetus to the growing abolitionist movement, and may even encourage the less doctrinaire members of the pro-prostitution group to reflect on their position critically. I believe that this book should be widely recommended and made available to students since it would at least help them to develop a more balanced view of these highly contested issues.

 

[Toni]

I really hate it when discussions like this one start to become attacks on each other. Can't people disagree in a more respectful way? it doesn't appear to be that way too much lately. The reason I support legalization, is primarily because it's what the women/men engaged in this line of work want. And from everything I've read over the years, it does seem much safer when it's legal. I can't think of any reason why keeping it illegal benefits anyone!

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-majority-of-sex-workers-enjoy-their-job-why-should-we-find-that-surprising-10083175.html

Selling sex is not inherently harmful or dangerous. It is clear from the 50 to 60 incidents reported to NUM every month that offenders target sex workers because they believe that they won’t be reported to the police, and they will get away with it. Tragically, this belief is based in reality: only 26 per cent of the 1350 sex workers who have reported serious crimes to NUM were willing to report to the police.

This study has demonstrated that sex workers are a diverse group, most of whom have chosen their work as a preference to the other options available to them. It also delivers a strong message that any policy which seeks to deny their agency is not founded in evidence.

On International Sex Workers’ Rights Day we must remind ourselves that sex workers are one of the most stigmatised groups in our society and are often deliberately denied a voice by policy makers who claim to be advocating for them. Only through decriminalisation will sex workers be less stigmatised and feel comfortable in reporting crimes to the police and advocating their rights as workers.

That is just one small study, but it exemplified my point. The US has the exact same problem when it comes to sex workers not reporting assaults out of fear of being targeted by the police. Sheesh. When you legalize sex work you make it safer for the providers. Those engaged in the work are less stigmatized and they don't have to be fearful of reporting sexual assault to the police because they are engaged in a legitimate line of work. I honestly don't understand the objection to legalization.

One last plea for consideration of legalization or at lease decriminalization. First, I will admit that Amnesty International is one of my favorite human rights organization. Although I can't afford to contribute much, I am a member. I was very pleased when the organization began supporting decriminalization of sex work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/25/magazine/why-amnesty-international-is-calling-for-decriminalizing-sex-work.html


And, one more piece from the NYTimes goes into length giving the reasons why it's best to decriminalize or legalize sex work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/magazine/should-prostitution-be-a-crime.html?action=click&module=RelatedCoverage&pgtype=Article®ion=Footer

Have fun debating. I've said enough.

If 26 percent of assaults on sex workers are reported to police, that's a better rate of reporting that the general population. According to the Justice Department, almost 80 percent of rapes and sexual assaults are NOT reported (total population).

I get the argument but I don't buy it. Legalizing prostitution will not change hearts and minds of the criminal justice system or the general public which seems to have a difficult time reporting, arresting, trying or convicting rapists.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I really hate it when discussions like this one start to become attacks on each other. Can't people disagree in a more respectful way?

I'm being as open and deliberate and non-snarky as I can be for precisely that reason (plus I just got spanked by an über mod and am in "time out" mode apparently).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have a close friend who is currently working as a stripper to put herself through school. Her sole focus of it is monetary, and it can be funny (and maddening) to listen to her sometimes about how much she makes in a given night. She does so well because she ropes the suckers in all doe eyed and make them think they are special. When really, they are walking ATMs. It isn't always the sex worker who is the 'victim' of sex work.

Yeah. Stripping is basically about getting money from suckers. That puts them at two strikes in my book.

 

[Toni]

Well, there are other issues (the other side of the decriminalization coin as it were):



From the World Development Report referenced above:



From their conclusion:

This paper has investigated the impact of legalized prostitution on inflows of human trafficking. According to economic theory, there are two effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalizing prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market and thus an increase in human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked prostitutes by favoring prostitutes who have legal residence in a country. Our quantitative empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger degree of reported human trafficking inflows. We have corroborated this quantitative evidence with three brief case studies of Sweden, Denmark and Germany.

They go on to qualify that with:

Our central finding, i.e., that countries with legalized prostitution experience a larger reported incidence of trafficking inflows, is therefore best regarded as being based on the most reliable existing data, but needs to be subjected to future scrutiny. More research in this area is definitely warranted, but it will require the collection of more reliable data to establish firmer conclusions.

The likely negative consequences of legalized prostitution on a country’s inflows of human trafficking might be seen to support those who argue in favor of banning prostitution, thereby reducing the flows of trafficking (e.g., Outshoorn, 2005). However, such a line of argumentation overlooks potential benefits that the legalization of prostitution might have on those employed in the industry. Working conditions could be substantially improved for prostitutes – at least those legally employed – if prostitution is legalized. Prohibiting prostitution also raises tricky “freedom of choice” issues concerning both the potential suppliers and clients of prostitution services. A full evaluation of the costs and benefits, as well as of the broader merits of prohibiting prostitution, is beyond the scope of the present article.

So, again, it's not such a cut and dried proposition.

Which is where I'm coming from. Again: this is honestly not what I was expecting to read when I first started investigating the effects of legalization on prostitutes. Of particular note is that legalized prostitution promotes an uptick in human trafficking/forced prostitution.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I get the argument but I don't buy it. Legalizing prostitution will not change hearts and minds of the criminal justice system or the general public which seems to have a difficult time reporting, arresting, trying or convicting rapists.

So? No really, even if what you claim in the quote above is true, so what? I believe the onus should be on you to justify restricting the sex worker's freedom and your branding her and her clients criminals. So what if legalizing it doesn't do something positive? It does, but so what if it didn't? Isn't the freedom itself of value? Why shouldn't the woman have the right to choose for herself?

And in regard to increased "trafficking", you need to better define what you mean by "trafficking" that you object to so much that you think it justifies taking away the freedom mentioned above. If trafficking simply means people moving of their own free will to work in the sex trade, is that objectionable? Or are you only objecting to sex slavery? If the latter, then are you certain the studies you point to are measuring just sex slavery as "trafficking"?

 

[Toni]

I get the argument but I don't buy it. Legalizing prostitution will not change hearts and minds of the criminal justice system or the general public which seems to have a difficult time reporting, arresting, trying or convicting rapists.

So? No really, even if what you claim in the quote above is true, so what? I believe the onus should be on you to justify restricting the sex worker's freedom and your branding her and her clients criminals. So what if legalizing it doesn't do something positive? It does, but so what if it didn't? Isn't the freedom itself of value? Why shouldn't the woman have the right to choose for herself?

And in regard to increased "trafficking", you need to better define what you mean by "trafficking" that you object to so much that you think it justifies taking away the freedom mentioned above. If trafficking simply means people moving of their own free will to work in the sex trade, is that objectionable? Or are you only objecting to sex slavery? If the latter, then are you certain the studies you point to are measuring just sex slavery as "trafficking"?

I don’t see it as freedom.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'll just have to use my best judgement.

Well, that's the problem. Your "best judgement" is in no way quantifiable. Not a ding or an insult, just a fact.

You see no problem with your observation here?

Again, I have no doubt you have met extraordinary individuals and found some to be forthright and who never had a single problem in life while others not so much. The point is that you are assuming a very general, authoritative tone and tending to speak for a large majority when in fact you could only know a very small minority and that only due to purely subjective reasons that help in an anecdotal sense, but only as it in turn relates to you and your "best judgement."

Apart from the fact that hookers are fundamentally extraordinary individuals, for doing the specific job, I highly doubt I met extraordinary prostitutes. I think I met a pretty good cross section of them. At least veterans. The people I met were all veterans of the trade. Many years of experience. Prostitutes who do it, and who want to keep doing it as long as possible, because they love the job. There are loads of prostitutes like that.

Worth noting that I have only written a tiny fraction of my thoughts and observations. I've left out anything they've told me in confidence. I've also left out their many and frequent conflicts and (in my opinion) idiotic drama about nothing. I've left out the pretty uncool hierarchy system among prostitutes. Ie, I've left out anything negative. Out of respect to the people I've met, and who have let me into their lives, I've chosen to keep the focus on the positive/interesting aspects of their jobs. I'm aware there's plenty of negative things about it.

There's also plenty of myths regarding the job. Things that people think is a big problem, that isn't. Which is what I've focused on.

So we, in turn, would need to know you just as well as you say you know these particular prostitutes for us to just accept your assessment as being in any way meaningful or, indeed, beyond whatever surface you may also be hiding beneath.

This isn't a dig or meant in any way to be an insult; it's just that you're basically saying, "Well, I personally know some prostitutes and they aren't fucked up." Ok. I don't think that's outside the realm of anyone saying the same thing about any particular group; some people are fucked up by certain experiences and others aren't.

But that's not exactly scientific. It's certainly useful, but not definitive in any way. It's you telling us about a handful of positive experiences which, in general, leads you to think, in general, certain things.

Great. More power to you, obviously, but it's still just personal anecdote.

Again... you are aware that you're just talking out of your ass? You have nothing but opinion. Strongly held opinion. But just shit you feel should be so.

As you put it, "it's normal to be a neurotic mess when it comes to sex. It's normal to be sexually dysfunctional." so if that's your general attitude in life, my guess is that you're not the type to dig too deeply in others to find what may or may not actually be motivating them.

I think you mean the exact opposite? It's from digging deep into others that this is revealed.

Ok, my mistake. So you have been conducting more in depth psychoanalytical analysis and found that it's "normal to be a neurotic mess when it comes to sex" and "it's normal to be sexualy dysfunctional." So what are your case studies?

Or are you, once again, merely speaking anecdotally, complete with your own problems of confirmation bias and subjective baggage that in turn could easily cloud the issue?

I'm sure you'll agree that there is a significant difference between a more stringent, more "scientific" method of study than "Well, I've had a lot of sex and talked to some prostitutes and one of them is a good friend, therefore here are my pronouncements about all human sexuality and generalizable insights into all prostitutes."

Yes, I know I'm skating into strawman territory there, but I'm doing so to illustrate the point. You are relating personal experiences and those are certainly valid and useful and even enlightening, but up to a point. Beyond that point, however, more rigorous study is necessary from better qualified individuals or institutions and there are others itt who are making such arguments that you seem--such as in this reponse--to be trying to dismiss with your personal anecdotes.

It doesn't work that way.

Oh, for fucks sake. Read any book on how to be a better lover. Think about your own sex life and the people you've met. How many of them were great in bed? People are fucking awful at this. Just the fact that people have a hang up about monogamy and faithfulness. That means people are wracked by insecurities regarding their sex life. If you feel good about yourself you're not going to feel jealous or have an issue with your partner occasionally sleeping with somebody else. I'm not saying open relationships is for everybody or people should be sleeping around. But people are commonly neurotic about sex and this is seen as normal. Pretty much everybody has loads of shit to work on if they want to be better lovers. Prostitutes are the experts of this field. So we should ask them more. Invite them in to speak about it. Put them on a pedestal and treat them like wise teachers who can help us improve. But we're not doing that. Instead we treat them like a lower class of people. As if they have something to be ashamed of. What does that tell you about us and our society? We're (nearly all people) not only bad lovers, but afraid of improving, afraid of admitting we suck at it, because we're afraid of what might come out when we give in to our passions. We're afraid of ourselves. That's what's normal.

Bottom line... read more books. I'm not saying Christianity is all bad. But all that sex negativity certainly hasn't helped our sex lives.

It sounds to me like you have no idea what you are talking about. Isn't that so?

It is not.

The trope about people only becoming prostitutes because of trauma or being raped is such a trope that the prostitutes themselves joke about it.

Again, well aware, but this is an excellent example of my point. Calling it a "trope" does not necessarily just magically wash away the fact that actual studies done on the matter reveal that being sexually abused as a child can correlate to prostitution later in life or that legalized prostitution can also correlate to larger flows of human trafficking. It's not a 1 for 1 proposition, of course, as nothing is in life, but it's also not not an issue.

Again, you meeting one or two or ten or even a hundred prostitutes that may not have been sexually abused (or just didn't tell you about it), does not an exhaustive study make.

They can't be a mental case or utterly psychologically broken. It's mentally a tough job. Nobody who doesn't have their shit together will survive in the industry. It's not for meek or weak people.

It's an extreme job, so people in it will have extreme backgrounds. Having suffered through trauma makes people take a look at their lives and become better at figuring out what is important to them. Anyway... that was my experience with trauma in my life. I'm guessing it works similarly for others. And lastly, I never said prostitutes are perfectly healthy and well balanced people. Who the fuck is? But they are very good at fucking. That's why they are in this industry. And it's not an easy job. Just having been traumatised or sexually abused won't make you a great lover. Prostitution isn't a form of self harm. Quite the contrary.

We want to think of prostitutes as traumatised and damaged goods to justify saving them.

Speaking of "tropes."

It's just a psychological mechanic by which we can justify taking away their freedom and rights and treat them like children we need to take care of.

Like a pimp does, one might say. Or, as they are known in Amsterdam, "businesspeople." Or, rather, I guess, "the State."

It's incredibly cynical, and I dare say, evil.

"Evil" like taking heroin away from a junkie? Which is the more evil? Knowing that money alone is a coercion and that if weren't for the fact that they were being paid, it is almost a certainty that the vast majority of prostitutes would not be having sex with that particular client--thus making it always a coercive act--or trying to come up with a social solution that doesn't seek to exploit certain dysfunctional issues (whether personally inflicted or as a result of society) people may be suffering?

I think you are devoid of compassion and care for people. Just up on your high horse of judgement, talking about things you obviously know nothing about, and people you clearly have zero respect for. That's what I think.

It's a highly complicated issue that doesn't just come down to a person's body is theirs to do with as they please. There are, in fact, many instances where others--whether it's family or friends or the State--can and must intervene for the good of the individual. That can take many forms that do not necessarily rise and fall on taking anyone's rights away.

I'm firmly in the camp that says you can do whatever the hell you want to do to your own body so long as you don't harm anyone else in the process. The question of prostitution, however, does involved multiple harms to others in various ways, so those have to be explored and not just hand-waved away because you have a friend who is a prostitute and/or you've partied with some prostitutes.

I don't find that to be an unreasonable observation.

OMFG you are deluded.

They lack the ability to fully embrace sensual pleasure and be swept away by it.

While no doubt true of many people across the globe, if you think any of your prostitute friends are fully embracing sensual pleasure and being swept away by it by obese German asshole tourists, drunk and stoned out of their minds and reeking of bratwurst while the hooker washes their disgusting two inch cocks as they drunkenly grope them, trying to pay more for arschlecken, then you live in a bad 70's porn film.

What? In what crazy world do you think any prostitute would touch men like this, even with a long stick?

You've supposedly been to Amsterdam many times and you're telling me you've never seen German tourists (in particular) behaving worse than Americans? You'll have to let me know the streets you hang out in, then, because as I've noted, I've been there a few times now--with almost thirty years between--and every time I saw dozens of drunk, stoned and LOUD Deutscher coming and going from behind those windows, usually with their buddies still standing outside laughing like idiot freshmen.

Perhaps they're well behaved when they interact with the prostitutes, and loud when they are with their mates? That's what I think. Prostitutes don't take shit. Not ever, or in any form. That's what I've learned from hanging out with them. But they are pretty chill people. They don't get easily offended. They can tell the difference between male posturing and male aggression. Men (and especially young men) often feel intimidated by beautiful and sexually confident women. So they blow themselves up and exaggerate acting cool (to hide their insecurities) in such environments. Prostitutes understand this. They're also pretty relaxed about intimacy in ways non-professional sex workers might find troubling. It's a question of emotional maturity.

I think it's as easy as you not paying enough attention to see what is actually happening.

Drunk or high people are never welcome in brothels... for instance.

I was. She called it "Dutch courage," in fact. There's even a name for it.

Obviously it depends on how high or drunk you are, doesn't it? A little is nice. Too much is too much.

Because it's clearly not based on reality.

So, my anecdotes don't count, only yours do?

I'm just giving a snap shop of an episode in my life. This is a thread about me sharing what happened to me. You're somehow arguing against it. I don't care about your anecdotes. They have no bearing on mine. And I think you are a terrible person. A moralistic dick who is trying to find reasons to look down on prostitutes. At this point I don't trust your judgement. So your anecdotes don't weight that heavy.