The Joker, Incels, Threats And FBI Warnings

[Loren Pechtel]

No, you are. This documents the cause of the incel movement. Men who are getting passed over for sex are getting increasingly frustrated, and a small minority of them lashes out violently. That doesn't mean that the problem is not a real one. Making fun of people who have difficult time getting laid is not only cruel but also counterproductive!

Loren is right that the trend has a lot to do with dating/hookup sites like Tinder. Women on those sites, at least a huge majority of them, can get laid very easily. However, only a small minority of men can.

Tinder Experiments II: Guys, unless you are really hot you are probably better off not wasting your time on Tinder — a quantitative socio-economic study

That is a systemic imbalance that should not be ignored.


You got it exactly backwards. It is the rejection that is driving these men into isolation and a small minority of them into an extreme response.

Turns out that when you allow your frustrations about your virginity to drive you into an echo-chamber cult that insulates you from growth, you don't grow into a fuckable person.

Turns out that when women on dating sites already decide that you are not a fuckable person because they all think they deserve one of the top 20% of the guys on the site and exclusively reply to their messages, it is very difficult to have the kind of growth you imagine.

When did scoring dates on tinder become a prerequisite for growing into a person able to communicate compassion and empathy?

How did members of previous generations manage it when tinder wasn't even around?

I was pointing out that it was a cause of people not having sex--so many people use internet dating these days and it's a pretty dismal landscape for the average person. The pool of prospects is down and one is being judged by a higher standard. In the old days people didn't have as many options and thus weren't as choosy.

It's the same problem we see with a lot of hiring--managers so determined to find the best that they don't hire anyone.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Seems one of the consequences of over-representation of women with university degrees is the perceived drought of marital prospects - by men and women. Women with university degrees tend to prefer men with university degrees. With fewer men obtaining university degrees (by comparison), there are fewer male prospects for these women. Men tend not to care but it takes two to tango. The female CEO marries another CEO; the male CEO marries his secretary. Seinfeld had a funny bit on this. Paradoxically, women's liberation - in this regard - has given rise to issues similar to polygamous societies: a few males monopolize the women leaving the remaining males frustrated and violent.

This is also an issue but I don't think it's that big a factor, the number of women thus excluded isn't that big a percentage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

LOL, "for my money". Yes, there are all sorts of people, men and women, who are gold diggers. Our neighbor's mom just dumped a couple hundred thousand on a gold digger man.

But really, most people just don't want to worry about someone being a non-contributor.

That's why a good job is important: so that they know that the number one argument between people in a relationship won't be a spectre in their lives (arguing about money!) When you both have your own money, that isn't an issue.

I have been unimpressed with the relationships I have seen with a substantial imbalance in wealth.

As to hair, there are always options, including taking it all off. But enough with making excuses. They are exactly that: excuses. Granted that hole is so deep from being dug for all these years that I recognize that pulling oneself out of it may, in fact, be asking too much.

Hair helps but there's not much one can do about looks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I have no idea of how casual sexual hookups work today.

It's a soul-crushing postapocalyptic hellscape unless you happen to be a woman or man in the top 20% by attractiveness.

Wow, what a mythical world you live in to believe that. This is, to be sure, the result of living in a cultlike echo chamber.

Of course, maybe some things are different for me, as I'm gay,

Things are most definitely different for you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I am past caring because I have given up on this rigged game a long time ago!

Your claim that you have “given up” is proven false by the fact that you are STILL talking about it.

The truth is that guys who look like you still get dates and wives. They have to use other methods to be attractive to a mate, (like being kind and pleasant) as do women who are not good looking. Yet they still get mates.

A relationship without the sexual attraction generally doesn't fare well in the long run. Being kind and pleasant gets you a dead bedroom relationship much more than it gets you a true mate.

 

[prideandfall]

I have no idea of how casual sexual hookups work today.

It's a soul-crushing postapocalyptic hellscape unless you happen to be a woman or man in the top 20% by attractiveness.

eh... i dunno about that. i recently had a later-in-life whore phase after having spent 20 years in the rat race of serial monogamy, and i came away with a very different take on the situation.

the problem is how many people only look at the top 20% of attractiveness and consider that the only viable selection for themselves, despite the fact that they themselves are in the bottom tier.
you can be quite low on the physical attractiveness scale (i'm maybe a 3 on a good day if i'm lucky) but if you: A. recognize your own value in the sexual marketplace and don't exclusively try to fuck outside of your price range, and B. recognize that most women are sapiosexual and you can totally make their brain get their vagina to trick their eyes into thinking they want to fuck you if you're just witty enough, it's not hard to get laid even in a city famously populated by fit attractive people.

i have observed many of the issues suffered by single people to be self inflicted, with the rest of the issues being pure random luck, or due to broader problems with our culture at large and not about them specifically - this is true for both men and women.

 

[J842P]

The truth is that guys who look like you still get dates and wives. They have to use other methods to be attractive to a mate, (like being kind and pleasant) as do women who are not good looking. Yet they still get mates.

Some do. Many do not. I'm not sure why that is so hard to admit. And definitely, in this sphere, it is the male sex that gets the short end of the stick, and I say that just because I think there is simply a greater volume of unattractive men than unattractive women. Not that there aren't some women who also are essentially doomed to spend their lives alone. It is all very sad.

The result of constant rejection is quite similar, in my experience, at least for heterosexual men and women. All of my gay friends not really suffer from a lack of potential partners. I mean, I imagine it's different in different parts of the world, I just happen to live in a gay mecca. Although, finding someone compatible for something long-term seems to be hard for everyone.
But I've seen many heterosexual men and women become jaded and resentful, and they will start to generalize their bad experiences with the opposite sex to all members of that sex. This is just human nature, as far as I can tell.

All women are gold diggers, all men are pigs. Except, of course, for the many men and women who seem to find each other who are neither of those things.

But I will say, being unattractive is definitely not a great lot in life. It is easy to point to the exceptional cases and say, see! look! Even so-and-so managed to find a partner... But the reality is that many unattractive people will live out lonely lives of solitude. And that can really start to be a crushing reality for many people. And it is cruel to just state that they can simply try to be "kind and pleasant", or otherwise "work on their personality", as if that were going to result in something other than a long shot for a really ugly person.

I can say, at least from a heterosexual man's perspective, I can empathize with Derec. The one thing that gets annoying is that society seems to cast men as being superficial and only interested in looks, and women less so. And maybe there is a kernel of truth there, but I think most people are superficial and highly value looks. But when you are an ugly dude, and everyone tells you just work on your personality, I can understand why that gets old very fast.

I'm very fortunate to be conventionally attractive besides my height. And that is not a small thing to overcome as a male. I can't count the number of times women will just flat out tell you that you are too short. And I understand that, I accept it. That's just the way humans are. I don't hold it against them, and I do my best not to let resentment eat away at me. At least I'm not ugly and there are some shorter girls around, and I can hold a conversation and even be funny. Or else by the grace of the gods, I'd probably just be another incel. Because it is definitely not easy to deal with the fact that there is a fundamental aspect of my physical person that effectively rules me out to a majority of women out there, especially not when one is young and dealing with all sorts of emotions.

And definitely, resentment is an ugly, poisonous thing. Albeit quite easy to fall in to. And I know a lot of resentful men, women, and gender non-conforming people of all sexualities and political persuasions.

 

[J842P]

i have observed many of the issues suffered by single people to be self inflicted, with the rest of the issues being pure random luck, or due to broader problems with our culture at large and not about them specifically - this is true for both men and women.

There's definitely a lot of truth here. I think another problem too is that people care about the judgement of their peers, at least until you reach a certain age.

One giant trap a lot of hetero men fall in to is resentment. I can understand it. And as we all age, women start become less and less picky. I'm seeing it happen before my very eyes. The tables really turn on them quickly. But some men get this attitude of "well, if they wouldn't want me back then, I don't want to them now". And I can empathize with that, but it is incredibly counterproductive, it is pure resentment.

I can't blame young women for acting the way they do, I would be the same way. If I turned down every girl who wouldn't have had me when we were both teenagers or in our early 20s, I'd have practically no one left.

 

[J842P]

Tinder plays big role in this. There are so many choices that people get choosy, the most attractive get lots of partners, the less attractive get almost none.

But it is not even for the genders. Vast majority of women can easily get laid on Tinder, but only a small minority of men can.

Tinder Experiments II: Guys, unless you are really hot you are probably better off not wasting your time on Tinder — a quantitative socio-economic study

What do you expect from a site that uses almost 100% visual evaluation for choosing sex partners?

I've never picked up a woman in a bar and had sex with her. Bars and nightclubs are also a mostly visual medium because it's often difficult to maintain a conversation and I'm not a good looking man. That doesn't mean I never got any sex. You have to play up other qualities, like compassion, caring, and kindness. Frankly, you come across as not caring two shits about women unless they're willing to fuck you. Most women can see that a mile away. Your problem is you and nobody else's.

Oh please. I know men who are very open about only caring about women as far as they are willing to sleep with them. And they have no problems finding women willing and eager to do that weekend after weekend.

 

[J842P]

So why are so many women on Tinder et al having "meaningless hookup sex" with good looking bad boys then?
Why are so many women going on vacations to places like Dominican Republic or Jamaica and hooking up with young, good looking bartenders or lifeguards for a vacation fling?


Not nearly to the same extent as it existed since then.

Edit: as soon as you fall into the belief that the problem isn't your behavior and comportment, as soon as you start blaming others for things that YOU need to work on for yourself, you are lost.

Well, I recognized that the game is rigged, so I refuse to play. It's like in War Games:
View attachment 27834

Or like somebody who used to buy lottery tickets every week, but then studied math and learned some probability and quit.

So, ignoring for a moment that I suspect you came here to bitch because you just dropped a bunch of money on some recent investment that you resent feeling as if you had to make to achieve some goal you feel was important to achieve, i see you have not learned what you described: your probability of convincing us, given the nature of your posts here, that your problem is not your repellant personality rather than the behavior of a vanishing minority of girls, is zero. Yet here you are anyway trying.

Maybe instead of whinging online that things are hard (despite the fact that you are not even TRYING to be better, not even trying to grow as a person), you could be out there actually trying to understand what women want from a person in a relationship, fostering positive relationships with others, and ultimately being a person not seeking "to get laid" but rather to communicate and grow.

Pfft. OK.

Look, it is obvious that Derec's "repellant personality" to everyone here is mostly a result of him not agreeing with people politically. The dude does not have a particularly bad personality, as far as I can tell. But there are tons of far more "toxic", conservative, hetero-males out there finding partners.


And I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with you that one has to look inward here, regardless of all of that. And that there is a toxic, resentful maelstrom that you can slip in to and never come out of.

But the idea that it's just his personality is easily refuted by spending any amount of time in the real world.

 

[ZiprHead]

What do you expect from a site that uses almost 100% visual evaluation for choosing sex partners?

I've never picked up a woman in a bar and had sex with her. Bars and nightclubs are also a mostly visual medium because it's often difficult to maintain a conversation and I'm not a good looking man. That doesn't mean I never got any sex. You have to play up other qualities, like compassion, caring, and kindness. Frankly, you come across as not caring two shits about women unless they're willing to fuck you. Most women can see that a mile away. Your problem is you and nobody else's.

Oh please. I know men who are very open about only caring about women as far as they are willing to sleep with them. And they have no problems finding women willing and eager to do that weekend after weekend.

Are these men fat and balding?

 

[Trausti]

What do you expect from a site that uses almost 100% visual evaluation for choosing sex partners?

I've never picked up a woman in a bar and had sex with her. Bars and nightclubs are also a mostly visual medium because it's often difficult to maintain a conversation and I'm not a good looking man. That doesn't mean I never got any sex. You have to play up other qualities, like compassion, caring, and kindness. Frankly, you come across as not caring two shits about women unless they're willing to fuck you. Most women can see that a mile away. Your problem is you and nobody else's.

Oh please. I know men who are very open about only caring about women as far as they are willing to sleep with them. And they have no problems finding women willing and eager to do that weekend after weekend.

Are these men fat and balding?

Perhaps the women are, too.

 

[Derec]

B. recognize that most women are sapiosexual and you can totally make their brain get their vagina to trick their eyes into thinking they want to fuck you if you're just witty enough, it's not hard to get laid even in a city famously populated by fit attractive people.

Well I am not funny either, at least not in the moment.

i have observed many of the issues suffered by single people to be self inflicted, with the rest of the issues being pure random luck, or due to broader problems with our culture at large and not about them specifically - this is true for both men and women.

It is definitely much, much easier for women to get laid in our culture. Any woman above a 2 can go to a bar or a night club and end up with a hookup. Hell, even if she goes to a gay bar she has better than even chance to find somebody who would fuck her for a dare. Try that as a guy in lesbian bar ...

 

[Derec]

One giant trap a lot of hetero men fall in to is resentment. I can understand it. And as we all age, women start become less and less picky. I'm seeing it happen before my very eyes. The tables really turn on them quickly. But some men get this attitude of "well, if they wouldn't want me back then, I don't want to them now". And I can empathize with that, but it is incredibly counterproductive, it is pure resentment.

I am in that boat. I do not see why I should give the time of day to women that have ignored me in my 20s. They should go to the bad boys and players they happily fucked through their 20s and early 30s! But of course, since those players all juggled 5, 6, or 7 chicks at the same time, and the bad boy may be in jail or dead, it's hard to get one of them to marry you now. Not my fucking problem though!

I can't blame young women for acting the way they do,

I can blame them, and I do blame them. Actions have consequences. They ignored me then, I ignore them now. Payback is a bitch!

 

[Derec]

Look, it is obvious that Derec's "repellant personality" to everyone here is mostly a result of him not agreeing with people politically. The dude does not have a particularly bad personality, as far as I can tell. But there are tons of far more "toxic", conservative, hetero-males out there finding partners.

Thanks!

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Holy thread necromancy batman.

Oh well, I recently watched Joker. It isn't about incels. That's just bullshit.

I remember the movie Falling Down. Back then the scare-word was "dittohead", and the pundits were saying "this is a Limbaugh follower, they're just waiting for him to give the word and they'll all do that." That's not the only comparison. Both movies are about someone pushed over the edge. Neither are what the opinion givers said they are.

Personally I found the movie so disturbing that I had to get rather drunk afterwards. The movie is a tragedy, and Arthur Freek is the tragic main character. Still, we aren't supposed to identify with him beyond a certain extent; we are definitely supposed to empathize with him. However, due to several rather problematic events I experienced growing up, I identified perhaps a little too strongly. I could see how, if I hadn't received the right support, I could have ended up in as bad a mental state as him.

I felt out of it for a couple days recovering from watching it. It is a film about mental illness, not about some stupid political message about Incels or whoever the current scapegoat of the progressives is.

 

[Derec]

So, ignoring for a moment that I suspect you came here to bitch because you just dropped a bunch of money on some recent investment that you resent feeling as if you had to make to achieve some goal you feel was important to achieve,

Maybe instead of whinging online that things are hard (despite the fact that you are not even TRYING to be better, not even trying to grow as a person), you could be out there actually trying to understand what women want from a person in a relationship, fostering positive relationships with others, and ultimately being a person not seeking "to get laid" but rather to communicate and grow.

I am not interested in attracting the women who have been ignoring me throughout my 20s.

 

[laughing dog]

I can blame them, and I do blame them. Actions have consequences. They ignored me then, I ignore them now. Payback is a bitch!

I suspect you vastly over-estimate the size of that payback.

 

[Arctish]

One giant trap a lot of hetero men fall in to is resentment. I can understand it. And as we all age, women start become less and less picky. I'm seeing it happen before my very eyes. The tables really turn on them quickly. But some men get this attitude of "well, if they wouldn't want me back then, I don't want to them now". And I can empathize with that, but it is incredibly counterproductive, it is pure resentment.

I am in that boat. I do not see why I should give the time of day to women that have ignored me in my 20s. They should go to the bad boys and players they happily fucked through their 20s and early 30s! But of course, since those players all juggled 5, 6, or 7 chicks at the same time, and the bad boy may be in jail or dead, it's hard to get one of them to marry you now. Not my fucking problem though!

I can't blame young women for acting the way they do,

I can blame them, and I do blame them. Actions have consequences. They ignored me then, I ignore them now. Payback is a bitch!

You haven't met any new women in all these years? Every woman you encounter is someone who turned you down in high school and college?

 

[Rhea]

It is definitely much, much easier for women to get laid in our culture.

And it is easier for tall men to get jobs than short men. Yet you don't seem to have much venom about that. They get 3-4 job offers, while the short guy gets none.

It's weird.
I'm trying to comprehend the rage that you have toward women - all women! - for the actions of a few you knew when they were 20.
I'm trying to comprehend the outrage that you have toward women for having different biological drives than men.
I'm trying to comprehend your furious entitlement to their physical bodies, as if they are all your property and you are being denied something that is yours.

I cannot think of a single women I have ever met anywhere that would find that rage and entitlement a safe situation to enter.

Any woman above a 2 can go to a bar or a night club and end up with a hookup.

What? No moment of reflection for the ones below a 2?
Who is judging this 2? YOU?
So the 2s can go home, judged by you as unworthy and that's your right.
But you can't go home, judged by others as unworthy, because that's an OUTRAGEOUS THEFT OF YOUR RIGHTS?

Hell, even if she goes to a gay bar she has better than even chance to find somebody who would fuck her for a dare. Try that as a guy in lesbian bar ...

Guys should just stop wanting sex so much. If they wanted it as little as women, everything would be fine.
Try that.
Try changing your biology. It's what you're asking women to do...

(notwithstanding that you are utterly wrong about what women do and want and you are making broad judgments about "all women" behaving in the way you witness a tiny minority and then raging about that stereotype as if it's true, to the detriment of your mental health and your sexual aims.)



And your claim that you have "given up" does not comport with your enduring rage, by the way.